Sadiq Kahn's direct vision to ban most construction vehicles

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
101

roaduser66:
Nobody is proposing registering bicycles as a solution because it’s an absurd idea

Why?

roaduser66:
The paper analysed 704 accidents involving heavy goods vehicles and found that 31% of road fatalities were caused by drivers pulling away, 19% were caused by left turns, 7% by right turns, and 25% from drivers reversing.

theguardian.com/environment … udy-claims

Last time you posted in here I gave you facts from an actual insurance company that almost half of all accidents involving bikes were the fault of the cyclist.
Three times I brought it up to you and three times you ignored it.
Funny how you only like your statistics when it suits you

102

Don’t agree with me Carryfast, my reputation on these forums is shot as it is :slight_smile:

One passing comment Roaduser, I can feel you have a lot of compassion for cyclists and their families that have been tragically killed on the streets of London.

I have gone back through all your posts and read every thread you have posted in. in all drivers here have spoken about how cyclists deaths are tragic, some quite emotively and passionately.

I have read how drivers here genuinely want to make a difference and help make the roads safer for all.

I have not seen one word of compassion or understanding from you for the anguish and lifelong pain a truck driver will feel if by doing his work and by no fault of his own a cyclist dies. not one word of understanding of the lengths drivers go to to keep everyone safe to the best of their ability. Not one word about the 10’000s of truck drivers who guide their trucks through Londons streets every day safely.

NOT one word. I will tell you what the word is to all those truck drivers on here who try their very best in the most difficult of circumstances to keep everyone safe the word you should use…
Is THANKYOU

Because if these guys didn’t care and the companies didn’t care there would be 1000x more ghost bikes chained to railings around London.
I am surprised and proud that the guys here have let you rage at them as much as you have, they normally are not so restrained on here.

the guys who drive these (YOUR WORDS) “killer trucks” are human beings not automations, they have lives and families too. Not one goes out every day to earn money whatever the cost .
Some folks on here will know who I am about to talk about, but I wont name him . a driver , just left the yard and a young girl aged 16 walked right under his truck- suicide by truck- quite deliberate- the driver never managed to cope with what happened, he never drove again , it destroyed his family life and in the end he took his own life- that’s a killer truck driver for you,. Someone you feel to label and denigrate, maybe not deliberately but by your postings and their tone that’s what you are doing.

I think you have to go away and realise that from this side of the fence we feel that if the cycling community are serious about this, and not just laying the blame/responsibility out, they have to step up as well… you have been asked time and time again what is your community doing to add to all the measures the haulage industry can show they are taking, and you haven’t/cannot reply - there will come a natural point where folks will start asking well if you as a cycling community are really not that arsed about this that you wont do anything, why should we continue to be the whipping boys- you claim you find this serious and important if you do stand up as a community and put your money where your mouth is and join in training for all road users. If you don’t then you lose all your own credibility. and become part of the problem not the solution.

But we know, you wont come back and answer the difficult questions, you wont come back with any positive meaningful suggestions, you wont come back and look at how we can make a change together. you will come back with meaningless statistics, excuses why you cant do anything, and avoid actually engaging with us in any positive way. I agree that at one time the biggest problem in London re: trucks and cyclists was my own industry, today the biggest problem is the cyclists and their refusal to understand they are part of the problem and have to activate to become part of the solution… we are doing our share where the hell are you?

103

removed… not helpful and off topic, if you want to raise race issues in London go to a website that panders to that, we dont

Cheers , cattle wagon man .

104

Rikki-UK:

Do you know how hysterical you appear when you make stuff up like this?

Do you realise how blinded you appear by not accepting that cyclist must also take responsibility for their actions on the road and be accountable for them - there is an issue and the haulage industry is doing more than its share to make a difference the only people not willing to stand up and say we must also change are cyclists. Why wont cyclists accept a registration and permit scheme for cycling in London that can be taken away if cyclist contravene traffic laws?

Finally, exactly right.

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105

■■■■■■ up folk in the pub are legally allowed to walk between the bloke throwing darts and the dart board to get to the toilet, being ■■■■■■ as ■■■■ they still walk behind the dart thrower.
Cyclists say they are legally allowed to pass a vehicle on the left but knowing the risks they still do it and they are sober.

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106

roaduser66:

tomo3607:
And will you stop saying that there usually hit from behind when there not

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The paper analysed 704 accidents involving heavy goods vehicles and found that 31% of road fatalities were caused by drivers pulling away, 19% were caused by left turns, 7% by right turns, and 25% from drivers reversing.

theguardian.com/environment … udy-claims

How about the other 18%?

How many of those struck from behind were not in front of the lorry when it stopped, but had crept into the blindspot as the lorry waited at the red light?

107

Rikki-UK:
Don’t agree with me Carryfast, my reputation on these forums is shot as it is :slight_smile:

One passing comment Roaduser, I can feel you have a lot of compassion for cyclists and their families that have been tragically killed on the streets of London.

I have gone back through all your posts and read every thread you have posted in. in all drivers here have spoken about how cyclists deaths are tragic, some quite emotively and passionately.

I have read how drivers here genuinely want to make a difference and help make the roads safer for all.

I have not seen one word of compassion or understanding from you for the anguish and lifelong pain a truck driver will feel if by doing his work and by no fault of his own a cyclist dies. not one word of understanding of the lengths drivers go to to keep everyone safe to the best of their ability. Not one word about the 10’000s of truck drivers who guide their trucks through Londons streets every day safely.

NOT one word. I will tell you what the word is to all those truck drivers on here who try their very best in the most difficult of circumstances to keep everyone safe the word you should use…
Is THANKYOU

Because if these guys didn’t care and the companies didn’t care there would be 1000x more ghost bikes chained to railings around London.
I am surprised and proud that the guys here have let you rage at them as much as you have, they normally are not so restrained on here.

the guys who drive these (YOUR WORDS) “killer trucks” are human beings not automations, they have lives and families too. Not one goes out every day to earn money whatever the cost .
Some folks on here will know who I am about to talk about, but I wont name him . a driver , just left the yard and a young girl aged 16 walked right under his truck- suicide by truck- quite deliberate- the driver never managed to cope with what happened, he never drove again , it destroyed his family life and in the end he took his own life- that’s a killer truck driver for you,. Someone you feel to label and denigrate, maybe not deliberately but by your postings and their tone that’s what you are doing.

I think you have to go away and realise that from this side of the fence we feel that if the cycling community are serious about this, and not just laying the blame/responsibility out, they have to step up as well… you have been asked time and time again what is your community doing to add to all the measures the haulage industry can show they are taking, and you haven’t/cannot reply - there will come a natural point where folks will start asking well if you as a cycling community are really not that arsed about this that you wont do anything, why should we continue to be the whipping boys- you claim you find this serious and important if you do stand up as a community and put your money where your mouth is and join in training for all road users. If you don’t then you lose all your own credibility. and become part of the problem not the solution.

But we know, you wont come back and answer the difficult questions, you wont come back with any positive meaningful suggestions, you wont come back and look at how we can make a change together. you will come back with meaningless statistics, excuses why you cant do anything, and avoid actually engaging with us in any positive way. I agree that at one time the biggest problem in London re: trucks and cyclists was my own industry, today the biggest problem is the cyclists and their refusal to understand they are part of the problem and have to activate to become part of the solution… we are doing our share where the hell are you?

Brilliantly written. Logical, honest, compassionate, and most of all you sounded educated. Roaduser has done nothing for his own argument. He is just one deluded person, who could hold his birthday party in a phone box.
We can all spout statistics, but surely the whole point of them is so we can change our behaviour so we don’t end up as a statistic.
Also, does road user not realise that if there were no trucks in cities, they would just be thousands of white van drivers? Now surely increasing traffic is not the answer?

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108

I was always taught that driving is a privilege, not a right. Every road user has to pass a test and demonstrate their competence before being allowed on the highway. Failure to meet the high standards required can result in ones driving privileges being removed. This applies to every road user, with the exception of cyclists.

YouTube is filled with examples of cyclists berating other cyclists for their stupid behaviour. They understand (as do the majority of motorists) that they are particularly vulnerable. Why the cycling lobbyists (and certain cyclists) want to remove these responsibilities is beyond me.

109

Rikki, I know exactly what he’s doing, it’s typical of the type, he has an opinion and will not listen to anything that doesn’t agree with it.

The facts are the facts, more cyclists have been dying under the wheels of 8 wheelers, but the facts do not tell the whole truth. The number of cyclists on the road in London has risen dramatically, now that in itself will increase the number of accidents involving cyclists, but I think there’s also another factor.

These cyclists haven’t just landed from outer space, they’ve been commuting into London for years and have got sick of the time it takes to get in by car or public transport, they’ve seen bike couriers and the old school cyclists slipping past all the traffic and making good time, so they popped down to Halfords and got themselves a bike, so they now have to beat their old journey times to make their decision to be self propelled a good decision, plus they have to arrive at work a lot earlier to disassemble their bike, peel off their lycra and rinse off the stench of sweat from the ride into work. Ergo they are always in a hurry and increase the chances of ending up under 8 wheelers.

110

roaduser66:
Most of these lorries would be banned from the Low Emissions Zone anyway, which means Sadiq Khan doesn’t actually need to do much to manage this change.

Utter ■■■■■■■■.
Merc Arocs, Renault Range (C?), Daf CF Construction, MAN TGS and even the Iveco Trakker (as used by safety mad Docwra) are all high cabs and meet Euro 6 so they wont be disappearing soon.
They will however carry less payload than their predecessors because of all the extra junk that’s been bolted on. A few years ago it was decided that drivers were safer in their cabs thus automatic tailgates were introduced. Now someone has decided we need rear underrun bars which now get covered in the load previously tipped, meaning the driver needs not only to get out of the cab but spend longer outside faffing about cleaning something which was never there on his previous truck.

111

I know the haulage industry isn’t good at sticking together but isn’t it time we said enough is enough and stood up to some of the bleeding heart liberals, to start no lorry driver would ever want to be involved in a RTA with a bike, horse, cow or car but as the world knows there are blind spots that hamper the vision.
Stop punishing someone for something they can’t change (if you can’t see a bike and they know you can’t always see them why ride on the inside of a vehicle that’s indicating to turn left. Madness)and put the onus on bikes,forget bus lanes put in truck lanes in to separate us away from the traffic where ever possible. Make bike riders pay a road tax if you are ove 18 and under 65 and stick that cash into repairing pot holes and implementing cycle lanes.
I would like to see trucks going into primary schools as part of a cycling proficiency programme so kids can understand that lorry so can’t always see them, teach them young get the message through! It wouldn’t be a bad idea to involve cycling clubs in some kind of education days? If people will not listen to our side of the story maybe we should shove it down their throats and stand up for ourselves.

112

Captain Caveman 76:
I was always taught that driving is a privilege, not a right. Every road user has to pass a test and demonstrate their competence before being allowed on the highway. Failure to meet the high standards required can result in ones driving privileges being removed. This applies to every road user, with the exception of cyclists.

YouTube is filled with examples of cyclists berating other cyclists for their stupid behaviour. They understand (as do the majority of motorists) that they are particularly vulnerable. Why the cycling lobbyists (and certain cyclists) want to remove these responsibilities is beyond me.

I think you might have just hit the nail on the head there mate.

When one of your own is being put in danger, it makes you much more polarised.

Think about the views we’ve got on here about the migrants in Calais. Most people don’t give much of a hoot beyond “hmm yeah, something should be done” but on here, where you’ve drivers who have to face it and other drivers who can easily put themselves in the scenario, you’ve got a much stronger reaction in general. It seems to make sense to me that the same thing follows for cyclists in general - they are seeing their own getting killed and it makes their general views too strong.

I know I had to stop and think a bit, on the thread about Lou Wright, a friend of mine.

It’s way over my head how to actually sort this out, but somehow we’ve got lorry drivers with “You cyclists scare and frustrate us. Don’t you know how how stressful it feels to have people constantly put themselves into a position where you can kill them, all for the sake of a few seconds?” and cyclists with “You lorry drivers scare the bejesus out of us, don’t give a ■■■■ about the fact you’re killing us, all for the sake of a few seconds!”

Somehow, these two sides don’t sync, they clash. They should sync, logically. Maybe the two groups just don’t talk enough, who the ■■■■ knows?

The politicians don’t give a ■■■■, it’s just plebs arguing amongst themselves. The only thing the poshos care about is that there are more plebs on bikes than plebs in lorries, so they come up with all manner of shiny ideas that try to appease the bigger group. So the poshos end up winning anyway - forcing restrictions on the haulage industry that makes it hate cyclists and the same amount of cyclists still get killed, so the cyclists still hate lorries. Divide and conquer.

113

I say bring it on, because not only will the construction and distribution of good be difficult for them, but very quickly their railway infrastructure would stop. The trucks used to maintain this currently have LEZ derrogations, I hope they allow it for the vision too as currently there are no trucks on the market that would be suitable. Even when they do at a cost of around half a million a time and a current lead time of over a year, they’ll be a while before they are seen anywhere. Plus I doubt that the low slung cab will be compatible with fitting the rail bogies needed for the job.

But bring it on cos I hate driving in London

114

I think London should look at cities that are successful in having lots of cyclists mixing with other traffic.
It’s not about blaming one group, but accommodating every group.
Good lay out of the road, with single cycle path.
Laws for cyclist to cycle on the path when available and not on the road.

If you separate slower traffic from faster traffic, you are already half on a winner.

Have a look at Amsterdam for example, an old city where cyclist (and lots of them) go in reasonable harmony with trams, cars, busses and trucks.
BUT; there is more than 400 kilometre cycle path in Amsterdam. (Only a small city with 800.000 people)
And there are close to a million bikes in Amsterdam.
There are about 6 people a year killed on bikes (this is the same figure for years)
Take in consideration the amount of tourist who ride bikes in Amsterdam, and they don’t always know from which way the tram is flying around the corner.

Another fact is that race bikes in general are for fun, and not for racing through a crowded city.
You can be fined in Holland for speeding on a bike (endangering ot other traffic users)
And there is a lot more eduction to bike users.

I think Sadiq Kahn should spend a week in Holland on a bicycle to understand, you can make a truck/ bus as safe as you want, if you don’t train and control the cyclist / pedestrian you are on a loser.

By the way, Dutch kids don’t have school buses, or parents who drop them off at school, they cycle in traffic from a very young age.
That makes you certainly more aware and streetwise.

115

Remember that there are a lot of lorry drivers who do also cycle maybe we are much more aware of are surroundings

Why do so many cycle list ride around with earphones in so can’t hear only the music that is playing

Part of the problem is the cycle to work scheme that was developed a few years ago where a lot of people bought a bike through work & started riding on the road not realising that they do have a highway code so they can conduct themselves safely on the road

Maybe Mr Kahn should go out with a lorry driver or 3 for a few days just to see what it is like find out for himself in the real world

I drive along a single carriage way with no cycle lanes marked I regular see cyclist on there never a problem sometimes they are riding 2 abreast but do move when another vehicle is behind yes they have hi viz clothing on yes they have helmets on yes they have lights on no they do not have ear phones in there ears all very civil part of this road has no paths on

Maybe a sectioned off part of the road in from to traffic lights for HGV if turning bit like the cycle marked area

116

roaduser66:

tomo3607:
And will you stop saying that there usually hit from behind when there not

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The paper analysed 704 accidents involving heavy goods vehicles and found that 31% of road fatalities were caused by drivers pulling away, 19% were caused by left turns, 7% by right turns, and 25% from drivers reversing.

theguardian.com/environment … udy-claims

You mean like the following 2 that were close when reversing:
1 Reversing into a building supplies with 2 lads stopping traffic, when a cyclist shot through between the back of the truck and the kerb!!! Luckily I stopped, when inside I asked the lad why he didn’t stop the cyclist, he said he tried but they never stop !!

2 The one who ignored the bloke at a level crossing stopping traffic as we were on tracking, who then also ignored the orange warning on the crossing and shot through as the rear of the truck was coming around on track, narrowly missing him. Luckily we had cctv footage if anything had happened, but as there is no registration of bikes finding him will not happen.

So from this I can’t see the 25% from reversing decreasing, especially as the new crap is for better front and side vision

117

A lot of constructive ideas here already I think.
Low cabs in city areas will probably come. Because of their low long front overhangs they wont be usable for off road quarry use, so simply put therell have to be some sort of transfer point; 40t trucks go to satellite depots, and transfer loads onto smaller lower vehicles. Costs would rise, and if politically acceptable all goes forward, if too dear, a rethink. Trunk/tipper drivers keep out London, good result, and only those who choose to specialise in it, need go into the city. Costs will soon be accounted for at the planning stage by reputable contractors. Cowboy undercutters? Thats down to enforcement of the law, not the legitimate haulage industry. Laws only work if enforced. Legitimate hauliers dont want cowboys for financial as well as safety reasons.
Cyclists. Well Im a cyclist as well as a truck driver, same as many others out there. My own take is that there are some indefensible examples of bad driving by truck drivers, but these are rare. But although rare the consequences are too often severe, even fatal. As has been said there are some truly bad examples of foolish cyclists out there. Some put themselves in dangerous situations, and are so ignorant that they dont even seem to realise they are in danger. Too many cyclists have a false sense of security associated with safety gear etc. Putting on a helmet is of little use in most urban situations. (At normal speeds the head is not going to hit any object too hard, and a helmet is of no use in an argument with a truck wheel). Putting on a hi-vis vest is no use if entering into a blind spot. Earphones etc are a stupid idea.
Dedicated cycle lanes away from trucks/buses are a good idea. Ban big vehicles from these routes, and at the same time ban cyclists from main trunk routes: it may be a minority of cyclists who are foolish, but with no licence/test to weed out the fools, and apparently no enforcement of even existing rules then they must be protected from themselves. Cycle lanes cost money, but it`s gotta be done.

118

att:
Thing is with all of this…Surely the cyclists that were killed all saw the HGV, as it was probably the largest thing nearest to them…Now, as a biker I have always ridden as though no one has ever seen me and have positioned myself accordingly…I am now 51 and so far have managed to stay alive without being maimed or even suffering minor injuries form other road users, I do not wear hi-viz( I abhor it) I ride to save my life at all times and I will lane split at 80MPH when possible on all roads, so I am no angel.

I am still here, I enjoy my biking, but I know that if I put myself in a blind spot, or depend on someone else seeing me, I will be injured or dead…I ride for me, no one else, but I do respect other road users when it comes to my life, this is a mix of experience and common sense, the test and tuition had little part to play in my life being preserved, that was down to me.
I f cyclists had the same simple yet effective attitude, then perhaps they would not end up as road kill.

+1
I’ve always been a motorbiker and even before doing my HGV I kept myself out of lorry blindspots, I think the reason was the stickers saying ‘If you can’t see my mirrors I can’t see you’.
Now I’ve got my class 1 it’s something I’m even more aware of, so I would think that a cyclist who also drives HGVs would probably never have these problems.
Trouble is, anyone can get on a push bike and ride into London, non drivers, kids, anyone…with no training or education on the dangers. I think a licence scheme for bikes would be out of the question on practicality grounds, so it looks like it’s coming down to 4 choices; some kind of compulsory training for bikes (unlikely), banning bikes (even more unlikely), banning trucks (yes please!) or this scheme that’s being publicised about the side vision plus with a low cab. What other alternatives are there?

119

The pro cyclist lobby will always blame trucks and this "idea"is Kahns way of trying to appease them . When its implemented they will still be killing themselves below busses , cars, trains and anything else that is in the road with them including the new redesigned trucks .
If cyclists refuse to take any sort of responsibility for themselves or their actions I’m sorry but what else do they expect . If they kepp putting themselves into dangerous situations the law of averages dictates that sooner or later they are going to lose the battle with a truck .How many times have we as drivers seen the posters "You are responsible for your own saftey " in RDC’s’ Building sites etc - just because you have a hivis and a couple of flashing led lights does not make you invincible and right all the time .

120

Richard R:
I would like to see trucks going into primary schools as part of a cycling proficiency programme so kids can understand that lorry so can’t always see them, teach them young get the message through

There was a guy on here a while ago (on another thread where roaduser66 was spouting off) and he said he had tried to do this but the council said no due to health and safety incase a child injured themselves on a sharp edge or fell from the cab etc.
It beggars belief this idea gets vetoed due the “danger of injury” yet its still deemed perfectly acceptable to have them negotiate a few cones then have them “pass” their cycle proficiency and tell them they are ok to cycle on the road!