I only had one gaffer try that so and so can do it so you must be able too, so after a few words I said to him you put into writing and sign it and I will give it a go but we ended up agreeing that it could not be done legally.
Another firm ( big one ) I was asked to bring my tacho card in ( 1990s ) as I had not got back in time to do a second run but when checked on the little machine they had they found everything was legal and no time had been wasted as I think some of them were booking their break whist tipping and again nothing said.
In the 70s BRS and some subbies were running new empty containers from Cravens Sheffield to Greenock and one day a subbie was the last to tip around 1600 and the next wagon was a BRS driven by Jack Plowright who went to the digs next morning at 0700 he was back and the subbie was in front of him he had run back to Sheffield and back to Greenock he was driving an ERF with a 240 percy in so Chris will know exactly who it was !
What is your authority to post such comments as you do?
By what personal experience do you promote your opinions?
Do you have any personal experience of such things?
Cheerio for now.
The idea that log books,as opposed to tachos,and the ability to run at the domestic truck motorway limit without limiters,actually provide/d a more relaxed flexible driving and hours regime,that was/is more likely to create less stress and more opportunity for breaks and longer daily rest periods.Or that the transport unions here ( rightly ) also took that view at least in regards to tachos,is based not only on my personal ‘experience’ but also fact.Not ‘opinion’.
Meanwhile feel free to post any evidence which would suggest that the imposition of tachos and speed limiters set at 90kmh weren’t an EU directive.
Or that such a limit isn’t just a bit too seemingly convenient in matching that of the French truck motorway speed limit for it to have just been co incidence.
Or that Brit guvnors never supported imposition of tachos,against union protest,for obvious reasons in trying to get more work out of drivers.Bearing in mind the unarguable ‘flexibility’ which log books provided in creating extra rest time potential for drivers without the knowledge of guvnors.
Or the ‘fact’ that the type of operator or driver who intended/s to break the rules to criminal levels was/is going to be deterred by tachos etc.
I worked for a number of companies in this time frame as well as being an owner driver. Only one didn’t want the drivers to run bent at some time and yes I include myself. Being paid on mileage as an o/d just meant fitting in as many miles in a day as you could.
I don’t know any driver that hasn’t run bent at some time in his driving career. There are degrees of law breaking of course and I have know of some real crooks in the industry.
I could tell the story of someone who was running on stolen credit cards doing two Milans a week popping different pills to either stay awake or go to sleep! Then waking up in a ditch outside Reims having taken the wrong pill.
The odd switch on your tacho, red diesel, forged paperwork, stolen trucks, stolen credit cards, drug smuggling to name but a few of the things I have seen on European work in my time.
We have progressed from the odd tale of derring-do to despicable organised crime, via the pros and cons of legislation. No problem- these are all valid arguments. The reduction in daily hours, from 10 to 8, with the introduction of the tachograph, must have been a good thing for the driver. Who wants to work more than 8 hours, every day, by law? Most other professions have a 37-40 hour week.
hiya…years ago drivers was payed on Mileage and tonnage… been a small country the more you did the more you
earned… distance drivers would have a mate or trailer brake man…these younger lads picked up the old habits
from the older chaps (work never killed anyone )wrong.
as drivers mates faded out plus drivers couldn’t carry passengers the the old trick of just doing the extra bit diapered
drivers come along from the army plus people who wanted to be drivers, they have passed there tests and read the rules.
who ever can understand all the driving rules should be a brain surgeon,
the booking in system come along…no more first in the queue gets tipped first. if you get here early you wait longer.
we get the H&S thrown in… can’t do this that and the other not on that day or another.
now we have vosa…they are the men who point out how it should be done but infact never done it themselves and can’t do
it anyway. i was told i can’t get on the lorry deck. to put a sling in the hiab hook…you must use along stick…(to open the
safety clip hold the hook and the sling at the same time)…you show me and i’ll do it…i gave up and left.only their 9 years.
now the cut down in hours…driving was never really hard…staying awake was…this was the drivers trump card…stay awake for 5 days
but now we only do 4 and the lorry stands…OR a person who,s sat behind a desk for 37 hours takes the wheel to which a driver can’t.
the law knows where the driver has been there,s no account of the office worker…i know of one who drives a coach at week ends
7 days work a week. no record of 5 days…now the pay always been poor the more you could fit in the better those days have gone.
THE BIGGEST DOWNFALL… THE FRIENDSHIP…CAMARADERIE…THE CRACK…ITS ALL GONE FOR EVER…i know of a driver who met up in
a pub in London on a night out. they went on holiday together with the family.one is the godfather to one child…now a days drivers
don’t speak to each other…people moan about foreigners talking the work you see them parked together cooking and having a
drink in a layby… maybe running a little was good for lorry drivers…i can say running 100% to the book has lost a good group of
people to know…THE LORRY DRIVER.
John
I Agree with you 3300 john, on most of what you have written, that was the way of life back then if you did not want to do it, Goodbye!!,yes that was the way it was and everyone knew it,if i was driving now i bet i would hate it.8 hour day what!you would never get anything done…
This forum is my nearest contact to any diver related activity,yes it took a few years to get it all out of my system, now,let them learn.we all know what we! did…
[zb]
anorak:
We have progressed from the odd tale of derring-do to despicable organised crime, via the pros and cons of legislation. No problem- these are all valid arguments. The reduction in daily hours, from 10 to 8, with the introduction of the tachograph, must have been a good thing for the driver. Who wants to work more than 8 hours, every day, by law? Most other professions have a 37-40 hour week.
There’s a big difference between driving time limits v overall shift.In which case what we actually got was the worst of all worlds situation of an unrealistically low driving time limit which does nothing to increase the time off between shifts which is governed by the daily rest period regulations.While the use of tachos and lower speeds obviously stops ‘unofficial’ breaks without the guvnor’s knowledge provided by log books.Or getting back to the yard or parking up early or ‘making up’ time lost to extra breaks,or the flexibilty of being able to find suitable parking without every minute being accounted for.
IE The reality of the combination of low driving time limit,excessively long overall shift limit,lower motorway speeds and the ‘inflexibility’ of tachos v log books creates the unarguable situation of more stress and less time off.As opposed to changing domestic regs to 12 hours maximum daily spreadover therefore minimum 12 hours daily rest period,with no seperate driving time limit.Also no need for tachos or speed limiters subject to the national,as opposed to EU,motorway speed limit.Bearing in mind that the general definition of ‘domestic’ ( should mean ) any/all journeys within the country’s own borders.
[zb]
anorak:
We have progressed from the odd tale of derring-do to despicable organised crime, via the pros and cons of legislation. No problem- these are all valid arguments. The reduction in daily hours, from 10 to 8, with the introduction of the tachograph, must have been a good thing for the driver. Who wants to work more than 8 hours, every day, by law? Most other professions have a 37-40 hour week.
There’s a big difference between driving time limits v overall shift.In which case what we actually got was the worst of all worlds situation of an unrealistically low driving time limit which does nothing to increase the time off between shifts which is governed by the daily rest period regulations.While the use of tachos and lower speeds obviously stops ‘unofficial’ breaks without the guvnor’s knowledge provided by log books.Or getting back to the yard or parking up early or ‘making up’ time lost to extra breaks,or the flexibilty of being able to find suitable parking without every minute being accounted for.
IE The reality of the combination of low driving time limit,excessively long overall shift limit,lower motorway speeds and the ‘inflexibility’ of tachos v log books creates the unarguable situation of more stress and less time off.As opposed to changing domestic regs to 12 hours maximum daily spreadover therefore minimum 12 hours daily rest period,with no seperate driving time limit.Also no need for tachos or speed limiters subject to the national,as opposed to EU,motorway speed limit.Bearing in mind that the general definition of ‘domestic’ ( should mean ) any/all journeys within the country’s own borders.
After reading your remarks regarding running bent, How straight are you, Did you allways run to the book? Regards Larry.
Further regarding the regulations: all the electrickery in the world is not going to stop the worst cheat of all, that is making the driver work during his break, with the tacho in “rest” mode. I met a chap whose working day was 15 hours long, admittedly with a break to eat at lunchtime. His driving hours were legal, but the rest of his day was spent loading and unloading, all of which was done at “rest”. He hated it, and I felt sorry for him. One cannot blame his employer, because all of that company’s competitors must have been using the same loophole, and why not? The unions have long since made a rod for their own back, as evidenced by the writings of the Loon above, so our hoping-to-be-honest worker is without help.
To stop the fraud: the lorries should be fitted with an accelerometer or load cell, something which can measure the loads put on the chassis. That sensor must stream data to the digital recording device (tachograph). If the load on the chassis remains constant, the driver may enter the period as bona fide rest. If not, he is at work, and it counts against his working day. What about being parked in strong winds? The load data from that will have a “signature” characteristic, which will not be matched by the most skilled forklift operator.
If the rules are right and the enforcement is good, the cheats lose. That is what we all want is it not?
[zb]
anorak:
We have progressed from the odd tale of derring-do to despicable organised crime, via the pros and cons of legislation. No problem- these are all valid arguments. The reduction in daily hours, from 10 to 8, with the introduction of the tachograph, must have been a good thing for the driver. Who wants to work more than 8 hours, every day, by law? Most other professions have a 37-40 hour week.
There’s a big difference between driving time limits v overall shift.In which case what we actually got was the worst of all worlds situation of an unrealistically low driving time limit which does nothing to increase the time off between shifts which is governed by the daily rest period regulations.While the use of tachos and lower speeds obviously stops ‘unofficial’ breaks without the guvnor’s knowledge provided by log books.Or getting back to the yard or parking up early or ‘making up’ time lost to extra breaks,or the flexibilty of being able to find suitable parking without every minute being accounted for.
IE The reality of the combination of low driving time limit,excessively long overall shift limit,lower motorway speeds and the ‘inflexibility’ of tachos v log books creates the unarguable situation of more stress and less time off.As opposed to changing domestic regs to 12 hours maximum daily spreadover therefore minimum 12 hours daily rest period,with no seperate driving time limit.Also no need for tachos or speed limiters subject to the national,as opposed to EU,motorway speed limit.Bearing in mind that the general definition of ‘domestic’ ( should mean ) any/all journeys within the country’s own borders.
After reading your remarks regarding running bent, How straight are you, Did you allways run to the book? Regards Larry.
He’s done more theory driving than actual driving in my opinion Larry. He wouldn’t have stuck the graft in our day.
Cheers Dave.
[zb]
anorak:
We have progressed from the odd tale of derring-do to despicable organised crime, via the pros and cons of legislation. No problem- these are all valid arguments. The reduction in daily hours, from 10 to 8, with the introduction of the tachograph, must have been a good thing for the driver. Who wants to work more than 8 hours, every day, by law? Most other professions have a 37-40 hour week.
There’s a big difference between driving time limits v overall shift.In which case what we actually got was the worst of all worlds situation of an unrealistically low driving time limit which does nothing to increase the time off between shifts which is governed by the daily rest period regulations.While the use of tachos and lower speeds obviously stops ‘unofficial’ breaks without the guvnor’s knowledge provided by log books.Or getting back to the yard or parking up early or ‘making up’ time lost to extra breaks,or the flexibilty of being able to find suitable parking without every minute being accounted for.
IE The reality of the combination of low driving time limit,excessively long overall shift limit,lower motorway speeds and the ‘inflexibility’ of tachos v log books creates the unarguable situation of more stress and less time off.As opposed to changing domestic regs to 12 hours maximum daily spreadover therefore minimum 12 hours daily rest period,with no seperate driving time limit.Also no need for tachos or speed limiters subject to the national,as opposed to EU,motorway speed limit.Bearing in mind that the general definition of ‘domestic’ ( should mean ) any/all journeys within the country’s own borders.
After reading your remarks regarding running bent, How straight are you, Did you allways run to the book? Regards Larry.
He’s done more theory driving than actual driving in my opinion Larry. He wouldn’t have stuck the graft in our day.
Cheers Dave.
Well said Dave, He would have been called a hayseed in the 50s, That’s if he was about in those days, What a ■■■■■■, Regards Larry.
[zb]
anorak:
We have progressed from the odd tale of derring-do to despicable organised crime, via the pros and cons of legislation. No problem- these are all valid arguments. The reduction in daily hours, from 10 to 8, with the introduction of the tachograph, must have been a good thing for the driver. Who wants to work more than 8 hours, every day, by law? Most other professions have a 37-40 hour week.
There’s a big difference between driving time limits v overall shift.In which case what we actually got was the worst of all worlds situation of an unrealistically low driving time limit which does nothing to increase the time off between shifts which is governed by the daily rest period regulations.While the use of tachos and lower speeds obviously stops ‘unofficial’ breaks without the guvnor’s knowledge provided by log books.Or getting back to the yard or parking up early or ‘making up’ time lost to extra breaks,or the flexibilty of being able to find suitable parking without every minute being accounted for.
IE The reality of the combination of low driving time limit,excessively long overall shift limit,lower motorway speeds and the ‘inflexibility’ of tachos v log books creates the unarguable situation of more stress and less time off.As opposed to changing domestic regs to 12 hours maximum daily spreadover therefore minimum 12 hours daily rest period,with no seperate driving time limit.Also no need for tachos or speed limiters subject to the national,as opposed to EU,motorway speed limit.Bearing in mind that the general definition of ‘domestic’ ( should mean ) any/all journeys within the country’s own borders.
After reading your remarks regarding running bent, How straight are you, Did you allways run to the book? Regards Larry.
As I said the advantage of log books v tachos in the majority of cases,including mine,was that it allowed ‘more’ break time and time off not less.IE it was the guvnors who were most in favour of the introduction of tachos to reduce the amount of ‘unofficial’ breaks potential provided by log books.Nothing to do with bent running in which if someone wanted to run silly hours then a tacho wasn’t going to stop them. I’m guessing being that you’d remember the resistance of the unions to tachos in the day for that reason.IE the unions ( rightly ) weren’t in the business of making drivers work any extra than they could possibly avoid.
[zb]
anorak:
We have progressed from the odd tale of derring-do to despicable organised crime, via the pros and cons of legislation. No problem- these are all valid arguments. The reduction in daily hours, from 10 to 8, with the introduction of the tachograph, must have been a good thing for the driver. Who wants to work more than 8 hours, every day, by law? Most other professions have a 37-40 hour week.
There’s a big difference between driving time limits v overall shift.In which case what we actually got was the worst of all worlds situation of an unrealistically low driving time limit which does nothing to increase the time off between shifts which is governed by the daily rest period regulations.While the use of tachos and lower speeds obviously stops ‘unofficial’ breaks without the guvnor’s knowledge provided by log books.Or getting back to the yard or parking up early or ‘making up’ time lost to extra breaks,or the flexibilty of being able to find suitable parking without every minute being accounted for.
IE The reality of the combination of low driving time limit,excessively long overall shift limit,lower motorway speeds and the ‘inflexibility’ of tachos v log books creates the unarguable situation of more stress and less time off.As opposed to changing domestic regs to 12 hours maximum daily spreadover therefore minimum 12 hours daily rest period,with no seperate driving time limit.Also no need for tachos or speed limiters subject to the national,as opposed to EU,motorway speed limit.Bearing in mind that the general definition of ‘domestic’ ( should mean ) any/all journeys within the country’s own borders.
After reading your remarks regarding running bent, How straight are you, Did you allways run to the book? Regards Larry.
As I said the advantage of log books v tachos in the majority of cases,including mine,was that it allowed ‘more’ break time and time off not less.IE it was the guvnors who were most in favour of the introduction of tachos to reduce the amount of ‘unofficial’ breaks potential provided by log books.Nothing to do with bent running in which if someone wanted to run silly hours then a tacho wasn’t going to stop them. I’m guessing being that you’d remember the resistance of the unions to tachos in the day for that reason.
It was an EU ruling which brought in the tachograph, not the guvnors as you are trying to say. Just about all the legislation that has been brought into the UK, regarding road haulage in the last 30 years has come from the EU.
[zb]
anorak:
Further regarding the regulations: all the electrickery in the world is not going to stop the worst cheat of all, that is making the driver work during his break, with the tacho in “rest” mode. I met a chap whose working day was 15 hours long, admittedly with a break to eat at lunchtime. His driving hours were legal, but the rest of his day was spent loading and unloading, all of which was done at “rest”. He hated it, and I felt sorry for him. One cannot blame his employer, because all of that company’s competitors must have been using the same loophole, and why not? The unions have long since made a rod for their own back, as evidenced by the writings of the Loon above, so our hoping-to-be-honest worker is without help.
To stop the fraud: the lorries should be fitted with an accelerometer or load cell, something which can measure the loads put on the chassis. That sensor must stream data to the digital recording device (tachograph). If the load on the chassis remains constant, the driver may enter the period as bona fide rest. If not, he is at work, and it counts against his working day. What about being parked in strong winds? The load data from that will have a “signature” characteristic, which will not be matched by the most skilled forklift operator.
If the rules are right and the enforcement is good, the cheats lose. That is what we all want is it not?
How can more regulation and enforcement be supposedly ‘good’ when it actually creates the possibility to ensure that drivers are worked to the limits.As opposed to working less without the knowledge of the guvnor.While the clue is the word ‘criminal’.IE they don’t give a zb how much ‘enforcement’ there is because they just ignore the rules and/or circumvent them in whatever way.In the case of your idea how are you going to prove which driver was using the truck at the time you receive the data.IE got round simply by dodgy driver ID.
Dave the Renegade:
It was an EU ruling which brought in the tachograph, not the guvnors as you are trying to say. Just about all the legislation that has been brought into the UK, regarding road haulage in the last 30 years has come from the EU.
‘If’ you’ve read my posts you’d have seen that’s exactly what I said.However I ‘also’ said that it was the ‘unions’ who ‘opposed’ it not the guvnors. Which from experience was proved in my case after an argument with my guvnor on the council under domestic regs using log books.Having distrusted my ‘break regime’ under log books and ‘not’ because he thought I wasn’t taking enough break time during the day.
Dave the Renegade:
It was an EU ruling which brought in the tachograph, not the guvnors as you are trying to say. Just about all the legislation that has been brought into the UK, regarding road haulage in the last 30 years has come from the EU.
‘If’ you’ve read my posts you’d have seen that’s exactly what I said.However I ‘also’ said that it was the ‘unions’ who ‘opposed’ it not the guvnors. Which from experience was proved in my case after an argument with my guvnor on the council under domestic regs using log books.Having distrusted my ‘break regime’ under log books and ‘not’ because he thought I wasn’t taking enough break time during the day.
Most of the Council drivers are exempt from tachograph rules, so I don’t know how you came up with this statement. Also most Council employees don’t do anywhere near the hours to contravene any legislation, unless they are gritting in severe weather, and the tachograph is not required.
