Carryfast:
The point is that we were,rightly,moaning about drivers working to a legal break/rest regime,being lumbered with a speed regime which ironically was put there in large part because of a few people taking the pish with truck speeds and/or knackered drivers going off the road or into things by mixing speed with tiredness or just being too knackered to drive properly at any speed.The speed thing usually being more about maintaining the viability of direct depot to depot trunking than hub systems.But crucially never about anyone trying to one hit London-Glasgow-London for example.
The result of all this,often pointless,bent running,as I’ve said,being that whereas we could have kept the case for running even with log books and a decent 65 mph running regime we’ve now ended up with the situation of limiters set at 90 kmh and digi tachos all based on the genuine fears of the public regarding such silly antics of those trying to ‘one hit’ runs like Calais-Milan or London-Glasgow-London.With a similar situation going on now in North America.
Carryfast:
The point was the supposed idea that running bent would allow people to do Northern or Southern Italy in ‘one hit’ which was bollox.At worse there’s a good chance that they’d have gone off the road long before that point.Or at best they were just pointlessy juggling and breaking up daily rest periods into small ‘cat nap’ segments and calling that a ‘one hit’ run.
The same applies regarding uk work.IE some might possibly have done something along those lines of London-Glasgow-London in ‘one hit’ ( dodgy daily rest/break regime ) but the same applies whether it was done here at uk pre limiter type speeds or on the continent at continental type ones.IE it was just a silly counterproductive idea that has in large part predictably now resulted in drivers being lumbered with ridiculous levels of over regulation on the basis that high speeds and knackered drivers don’t mix let alone drivers who are so knackered they are unsafe at any speed.Whereas they could have kept more freedom if it hadn’t have been for a few taking the pish out of the hours regs.IE a few idiots zbing the job up for the many.
In the same way that totally incapably drunk drivers have now resulted in the imposition of Scottish type drink drive limits thereby zbing it up for those who were happy to just have a pint or so when driving.
Carryfast:
If we’re agreed that the definition of ‘one hit’ realistically means the same thing as ‘one shift’.There’s no way that anyone is going to be able to run that type of distance in one shift at that speed and without a decent daily rest period,without the real risk of going off the road.Which just leaves the question of what’s the point of breaking down the daily rest period into illegal small segments,creating a so called ‘one hit’ run.When it didn’t even meet that definition of getting there much if any quicker,than taking a proper daily rest,thereby turning it into a two shift,run would have done.
eurotrans:
The tacho if I remember correctly was a eu wide thing pushed by Germany
Yes, because tachographs were a German invention, and were pushed by Germany because virtually all tachographs were manufactured in Germany. It’s a bit like if Melton Mowbray District Council had a seat on the eu council, pushing for it to be mandatory for all trucks to have a pork pie sitting on the dashboard.
eurotrans:
The tacho if I remember correctly was a eu wide thing pushed by Germany
Yes, because tachographs were a German invention, and were pushed by Germany because virtually all tachographs were manufactured in Germany. It’s a bit like if Melton Mowbray District Council had a seat on the eu council, pushing for it to be mandatory for all trucks to have a pork pie sitting on the dashboard.
Now you’re trying to torture us in to stopping for a bite, how are you supposed to drive looking at a pork pie all day
newmercman:
Carryfast you have surpassed yourself on this thread, on things like Gardner engines you are arguing with opinions, but here you’re calling people liars and you’re getting right on everyone’s ■■■■.
The term one hit describes a drive from point A to point B which would take more than one legal shift done as fast as possible, it may have involved a couple of hours kip along the way, it may have included stops for leisurely meals, but if you left point A one day and arrived at point B the next day, you had done it in one hit.
If we’re agreed that the definition of ‘one hit’ realistically means the same thing as ‘one shift’.There’s no way that anyone is going to be able to run that type of distance in one shift at that speed and without a decent daily rest period,without the real risk of going off the road.Which just leaves the question of what’s the point of breaking down the daily rest period into illegal small segments,creating a so called ‘one hit’ run.When it didn’t even meet that definition of getting there much if any quicker,than taking a proper daily rest,thereby turning it into a two shift,run would have done.
Simple maths for you then. Madrid to Cherbourg 2 shifts legal so one nine hour break. Make that a 3 hour nap instead and voila it’s 6 hours quicker, one ferry earlier, one tip and load quicker and back down for tipped and loaded again before the end of the week and heading north as opposed to getting weekended in France on your way back down doing it legally.
Physically and mentally it’s fine as long as you listen to your body, eat properly and understand circadian rhythms.
Like NMM et al I have the wardrobe full of t shirts I’m healthy, happy and after the first 5 years of that I was mortgage free
eurotrans:
The tacho if I remember correctly was a eu wide thing pushed by Germany
Yes, because tachographs were a German invention, and were pushed by Germany because virtually all tachographs were manufactured in Germany. It’s a bit like if Melton Mowbray District Council had a seat on the eu council, pushing for it to be mandatory for all trucks to have a pork pie sitting on the dashboard.
We did try to put up a decent resistance against them being introduced ( imposed ) including the euro sceptic unions in the day.Which would have had a lot more chance of succeeding ‘if’ the Europhile government and the public weren’t hearing probably well founded rumours of trucks being driven London-Glasgow-London let alone Naples or Brindisi in ‘one hit’.
Carryfast:
I didn’t say that non one ever drove a truck at UK type speeds on the continent.The point was that even at pre limiter uk type speeds no one was going to be able ‘one hit’ Milan without exceeding driving time and/or daily rest limits by a silly margin let alone Southern Italy.While the real world speed regime for trucks on the continent was generally much less than that with limits at best of 90 kmh or more often 80 kmh more strictly enforced than the 60 mph motorway limit here was,such as the example of speeding offences being issued just by tacho trace evidence alone for example unlike here in the day.In addition to terrain enforcing a lot less than even that.
Which part of the title of this thread: “running bent …” did you not understand ?
Sorry, couldn’t help but quote this while I cleaned my screen!
billybigrig:
Simple maths for you then. Madrid to Cherbourg 2 shifts legal so one nine hour break. Make that a 3 hour nap instead and voila it’s 6 hours quicker, one ferry earlier, one tip and load quicker and back down for tipped and loaded again before the end of the week and heading north as opposed to getting weekended in France on your way back down doing it legally.
Physically and mentally it’s fine as long as you listen to your body, eat properly and understand circadian rhythms.
Like NMM et al I have the wardrobe full of t shirts I’m healthy, happy and after the first 5 years of that I was mortgage free
I get the upsides.But something tells me that we’re not hearing the whole story about the downsides of trucks going off the road or into things because the driver was in la la land instead of actually driving the truck.
As has been saI’d elsewhere limiters are now about fuel economy and you only have to look at the amount of motors now limited to 52 or 50 though choice.
Even if we leave the eu and said limiters wasn’t needed there would be a lot of firms sticking with them.
billybigrig:
Simple maths for you then. Madrid to Cherbourg 2 shifts legal so one nine hour break. Make that a 3 hour nap instead and voila it’s 6 hours quicker, one ferry earlier, one tip and load quicker and back down for tipped and loaded again before the end of the week and heading north as opposed to getting weekended in France on your way back down doing it legally.
Physically and mentally it’s fine as long as you listen to your body, eat properly and understand circadian rhythms.
Like NMM et al I have the wardrobe full of t shirts I’m healthy, happy and after the first 5 years of that I was mortgage free
I get the upsides.But something tells me that we’re not hearing the whole story about the downsides of trucks going off the road or into things because the driver was in la la land instead of actually driving the truck.
Few and far between. Believe me running like that kept you’re adrenaline flowing and arse puckering enough to keep you alert. Also back then it was national running so villages to slow for and distract you from the monotony. Also a lot of dodgy mountain roads with drops that focused you alright and required actual driving input, what with lower power outputs and no retarders. I always found the 20 hours up from say Valencia for example far less tiring than the 5 hours back up the M1 and M6 to home.
I can understand why you think drivers were falling asleep and crashing into the ditch a few minutes after they had completed a legal shift Carryfast, you are looking at it from your own experience.
I can fully understand how you would be almost comatose after spending nine hours in your own company.
billybigrig:
Believe me running like that kept you’re adrenaline flowing and arse puckering enough to keep you alert. I always found the 20 hours up from say Valencia for example far less tiring than the 5 hours back up the M1 and M6 to home.
Admittedly adrenaline is a great help.That’s the same with the car on the run back from Monza at car type speeds.Spend the day at the racing then leave early evening and one hit home.Still ok at Calais but knackered at UK type running speeds and during the grind home through the morning rush hour traffic on the M25.
newmercman:
I can understand why you think drivers were falling asleep and crashing into the ditch a few minutes after they had completed a legal shift
We’re not exactly talking about a ‘few minutes’ over a legal shift.If I’ve read it right we’re discussing regular minimal sleep provision or interruption that was way outside normally acceptable levels over prolonged periods.To the point where the industry has arguably been lumbered with more regulation than it might have been if those involved hadn’t taken the pish to such levels.
billybigrig:
Believe me running like that kept you’re adrenaline flowing and arse puckering enough to keep you alert. I always found the 20 hours up from say Valencia for example far less tiring than the 5 hours back up the M1 and M6 to home.
Admittedly adrenaline is a great help.That’s the same with the car on the run back from Monza at car type speeds.Spend the day at the racing then leave early evening and one hit home.Still ok at Calais but knackered at UK type running speeds and during the grind home through the morning rush hour traffic on the M25.
Now substitute the speed for risk and you may understand a bit more. Running dodgy abroaf brought great risk, financially and potentially more. However as the ministry had no jurisdiction abroad you just threw in a fresh card and as long as you remembered to correct your clock you were risk free on home turf. Possibly explaining why it was more tiring.
Also several other things helped abroad. All those villages had at least one routiers so the minute you were flagging, the next village and a petit cafe were readily accessible. It was a small community back then and everyone knew each other mostly so with the advent of the CB the miles whistled by with idle chatter and banter. Tape players meant you could listen to books on tape which I found better than music sometimes as they distracted me for long periods.
Lastly, never underestimate the power of the craic. The buzz from the satisfaction of beating the system is a powerful one.
Carryfast you tell us that we were unsafe but you managed to one hit Monza to uk , I’m amazed that you didn’t drive off the road having been up all day without any sleep, most irresponsible . Perhaps cars should have tachos and limiters and it would all be your fault
billybigrig:
Believe me running like that kept you’re adrenaline flowing and arse puckering enough to keep you alert. I always found the 20 hours up from say Valencia for example far less tiring than the 5 hours back up the M1 and M6 to home.
Admittedly adrenaline is a great help.That’s the same with the car on the run back from Monza at car type speeds.Spend the day at the racing then leave early evening and one hit home.Still ok at Calais but knackered at UK type running speeds and during the grind home through the morning rush hour traffic on the M25.
Now substitute the speed for risk and you may understand a bit more. Running dodgy abroaf brought great risk, financially and potentially more.
Long one hit runs across Europe with a quick car on an irregular basis in the day up to relatively recently was arguably a lower calculated risk in that regard both in terms of a better sleep regime or actually being involved in an accident,or the penalties for getting caught.Than all the potential implications of regular serious bent running with a truck ?.Although Spain had a terrible reputation regardless even in the event of a non fault serious car accident.Let alone a knackered driver running into something with a truck with evidence of dodgy running. ( Anyone remember the bail bonds obtained from the AA when going there ? ).
On that note the word is that 120 mph + on the French autoroutes at least,now means confiscation of the car and possible to definite custodial sentence.
eurotrans:
Carryfast you tell us that we were unsafe but you managed to one hit Monza to uk , I’m amazed that you didn’t drive off the road having been up all day without any sleep, most irresponsible . Perhaps cars should have tachos and limiters and it would all be your fault
Two hitting Enna was similar but starting fresh in the morning from Milan and Enna Monday morning in that case.Yes I might be a bit hypocritical at least in the former example.But cars don’t have hours regs or limiters or tachos for a reason.IE in most cases the speed allows for more distance to be covered without compromising sleep and the potential implications of truck accidents are worse than car ones and we’re not talking about the incentive for the continuous ongoing nature of any sleep deprivation that’s being described in the case of trucks.
newmercman:
I can understand why you think drivers were falling asleep and crashing into the ditch a few minutes after they had completed a legal shift
We’re not exactly talking about a ‘few minutes’ over a legal shift.If I’ve read it right we’re discussing regular minimal sleep provision or interruption that was way outside normally acceptable levels over prolonged periods.To the point where the industry has arguably been lumbered with more regulation than it might have been if those involved hadn’t taken the pish to such levels.
I think you’ll find that the hour’s regulations haven’t change since the 80s. So your argument is invalid, the only things that have changed are the recording methods and they are enforced more strictly nowadays. Nothing to do with unsafe drivers, it’s all about generating revenue, just the same as the proliferation of “safety” cameras, all they are are cash registers.
Speed limiters on lorries were introduced in order to harmonise speeds across the EU, but they only effected Britain with its 60mph list and Spain with its 100km/h limit on Autopistas.
All this ■■■■■■■■ you keep spouting about dangerous levels of fatigue is just that, a load of old ■■■■■■■■, you have no experience of it whatsoever, so how can you have anything upon which to base your opinion?
You’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, on and on and on about the same old ■■■■■■■■, time after time after time. As usual you are the only one that is right, even though you never did the job yourself, now I know that isn’t your fault, I mean, what on earth were all those successful transport companies thinking running artics abroad? We all know they would’ve been much better off importing Kenworths from Australia and converting them into wagon and drags so you could drive them with your class two licence.
Carryfast:
but the same applies whether it was done here at uk pre limiter type speeds or on the continent at continental type ones.IE it was just a silly counterproductive idea that has in large part predictably now resulted in drivers being lumbered with ridiculous levels of over regulation .Whereas they could have kept more freedom if it hadn’t have been for a few taking the pish out of the hours regs.IE a few idiots zbing the job up for the many.
.
Carryfast:
eddie snax:
Putting aside the running bent as in driving whilst showing rest on the wire fuse out etc, winding clock forward, winding back the mileometer etc,
Speeding was endemic especially at night , whether at home or abroad, so much so that I remember reading an article by the UK operations director for TNT, asking to have the 60mph limiter, they came first, abolished for overnight work and have a higher 70 mph limit for overnight driving(hgv). When the director of a large transport concern is pleading to have the speed limit raised, you know how wide spread speeding was. Imagine now, he’d probably be accused of bringing the industry into disrepute
His argument being that their hub network was roughly placed at half a driving shift from the next, this must have meant that they had calculated it on higher average speeds than that available with limited to 60mph trucks
I know all about the uk night trunking speed regime because I did it for 15 years.
,being lumbered with a speed regime which ironically was put there in large part because of a few people taking the pish with truck speeds :
I understand that you did night trunking for some considerable time, you have said previously. This is why I’m surprised that you say it was the few, because in the circles I was moving it seemed to be every one
From my experience of the late 80’s through most of the 90’s, which was mostly unaccompanied tilts, the majority were pulling some stunt or another, or all of the stunts together, allways having the ability to get back to port with a boat catcher or to doorstep a job for “am” the next day. And when running late at night and into the early hours to doorstep a job, I never felt that I was going excessively at 65mph-ish as all the other wagons running overnight were cracking on at similar speeds. So I counter that it was a few that spoiled it for the majority, more that the majority got what was coming, and had to accept that we may have been part of the reason that the party was bought to an early end
newmercman:
I think you’ll find that the hour’s regulations haven’t change since the 80s. So your argument is invalid, the only things that have changed are the recording methods and they are enforced more strictly nowadays. Nothing to do with unsafe drivers, it’s all about generating revenue, just the same as the proliferation of “safety” cameras, all they are are cash registers.
Speed limiters on lorries were introduced in order to harmonise speeds across the EU, but they only effected Britain with its 60mph list and Spain with its 100km/h limit on Autopistas.
All this ■■■■■■■■ you keep spouting about dangerous levels of fatigue is just that, a load of old ■■■■■■■■, you have no experience of it whatsoever, so how can you have anything upon which to base your opinion?
You’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, on and on and on about the same old ■■■■■■■■, time after time after time. As usual you are the only one that is right, even though you never did the job yourself, now I know that isn’t your fault, I mean, what on earth were all those successful transport companies thinking running artics abroad? We all know they would’ve been much better off importing Kenworths from Australia and converting them into wagon and drags so you could drive them with your class two licence.
You say that nothing has changed since the 1980’s.When tachos were actually introduced in the 1980’s here arguably in large part because of the excesses being discussed going on just the same in the 1970’s and before.In addition to further ‘changes’ in recording methods and with it even stricter enforcement.While if it’s all about revenue raising then people would obviously only get fined for infringements not get sent to jail.
Speed limiters were introduced here.Which like tachos might have been easier to resist if it wasn’t for public support resulting in large part again from people taking the pish with truck speeds.
As for fatigue v bent running what experience does it take other than the knowledge of the distances in question and natural biology.
As for drawbars you’re on shaky ground if you’re really suggesting that those weren’t at least as popular as artics if not moreso right across Eurasia from Vladivostok to Bordeaux and Murmansk to Istanbul and beyond regardless of the fact of my class 2 status before 1985 or class 1 after that.In addition to arguably being the best option to now take the industry forward in the form of LHV’s.While I’d guess that Friderici or VIT might have given me a job based on my truck preferences and views on dodgy running practices.
