Just seen a job advertised on Total jobs, for Mon to Fri £19.65 P/H, Sat £23.30, Sun £24.45, so i am thinking that sounds ok i might have a go at that, but further down the advert it says, please note these rates are PAYE rates but holiday pay is included. Is this an example of rolled up holiday pay? If it is, how these agencies still getting away with this practice?
shullbit:
Just seen a job advertised on Total jobs, for Mon to Fri £19.65 P/H, Sat £23.30, Sun £24.45, so i am thinking that sounds ok i might have a go at that, but further down the advert it says, please note these rates are PAYE rates but holiday pay is included. Is this an example of rolled up holiday pay? If it is, how these agencies still getting away with this practice?
Sounds like it. Why the doing it basically because they can.
As ok you might not apply for the position.
But somebody will…and as. Long as.people sign up and work.for them.they will keep doing it.
If nobody applied then the would have to change the rules
The basic M-F rate would still work out at £17.50 if you take off 12% holiday pay.
Maybe they should advertise this rate but if they state it in the advert then they aren’t being too underhand any more than someone advertising OTE.
Some drivers will happily take this rate and not be bothered when/if they take any holidays. You just have to know that if you don’t work you don’t get paid anything!
Also if you get you get paid holiday pay as you go then at least you get it rather than the agency ‘forgetting’ to pay it you if you leave.
The rules seem clear:
Rolled-up holiday pay
“Holiday pay should be paid for the time when annual leave is taken. An employer cannot include an amount for holiday pay in the hourly rate (known as ‘rolled-up holiday pay’).
If a current contract still includes rolled-up pay, it needs to be re-negotiated.”
gov.uk/holiday-entitlement- … the-basics
I dont doubt that some wont obey the rules, but there they are.
Unless any offending employers are reported nowt will happen.
“You can also contact the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service (Acas) with questions about general holiday pay issues.
Acas
Telephone: 0300 123 11 00
Textphone: 18001 0300 123 1100
Monday to Friday, 8am to 6pm”
shullbit:
Just seen a job advertised on Total jobs, for Mon to Fri £19.65 P/H, Sat £23.30, Sun £24.45, so i am thinking that sounds ok i might have a go at that, but further down the advert it says, please note these rates are PAYE rates but holiday pay is included. Is this an example of rolled up holiday pay? If it is, how these agencies still getting away with this practice?
I’m self employed and run another non driving business and can’t see an issue with this.
The rolled up holiday pay suits me fine. I dont want the money I’ve earned now keeping on one side for me like a school kid having their spending money saved. I’m perfectly capable of managing my earnings without outside help.
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I’m not convinced it’s illegal, I brought this up when speaking to tax office about getting letters every week apx about owing tax , tax bloke didn’t seemed bothered , never said they’d look into it or anything , just wasn’t interested
If it was illegal I’d of thought they’d jump on it .
dozy:
I’m not convinced it’s illegal, I brought this up when speaking to tax office about getting letters every week apx about owing tax , tax bloke didn’t seemed bothered , never said they’d look into it or anything , just wasn’t interested
If it was illegal I’d of thought they’d jump on it .
because they cant do anything about it. Even if the chairman of the agency/payroll company is in the country you can bet that they cant be traced easily and even if they are found they just fold the company and start another.
unfortunatly joe public is easily found and traceable has assets that can be siezed and its no good going bankrupt because they can still sieze your assets
Truckulent:
I’m self employed and run another non driving business and can’t see an issue with this.
Well for a start rolled up holiday pay was deemed illegal following an EU ruling supported by a UK employment tribunal several years ago.
dozy:
I’m not convinced it’s illegal, I brought this up when speaking to tax office about getting letters every week apx about owing tax , tax bloke didn’t seemed bothered , never said they’d look into it or anything , just wasn’t interested
If it was illegal I’d of thought they’d jump on it .
That’s because policing that law is not their job and also if you listen to the message that HMRC play when you phone them up and what they say on their website it tells you that their advisors are not allowed to give you legal advice.
cooper1203:
because they cant do anything about it. Even if the chairman of the agency/payroll company is in the country you can bet that they cant be traced easily and even if they are found they just fold the company and start another.unfortunatly joe public is easily found and traceable has assets that can be siezed and its no good going bankrupt because they can still sieze your assets
Yes. If you want to do anything illegal, do it through a company.
Regulators are about as useful as all those Government inquiries we have - a bit inconvenient but ultimately nothing to lose sleep over.
On the other hand - get caught nicking a Mars bar from Tesco & it’s going on your record to hinder you no end.
For short term contracts i.e. just a few weeks, then having your holiday pay rolled up has the advantage you don’t end up chasing the agency for any outstanding monies at the end of the gig.
At the beginning of this month my agency contacted me and presumably all my colleagues informing us that the payroll was being outsourced. The message assured us this was still PAYE and definitely not umbrella, but that we now had the option to have holiday pay included and could take this option by filling out a form.
My first thought was to take the rolled up option as I had struggled to get paid for my holidays particularly last year. I hadn’t taken my full holiday entitlement and was in the use it or lose situation. This isn’t unusual for me, approximately twenty years ago when working for a small engineering company I was running the Laser shop, almost single handedly. My employer informed me at the end of November that I hadn’t taken a single days holiday that year apart from bank holidays! The mortgage was big and the kids were small and I’d just cracked on. Being a reasonably decent chap he asked if it would be okay to give me a weeks holiday pay every pay day in December instead of in a lump at the end of the month. Not a problem was my response.
Back to the present(ish), I definitely hadn’t taken and/or been paid for my full holiday entitlement for 19/20 and 20/21 was going the same way. Admittedly lax on my part, but after some insistence the agency decided I was owed 186 hrs of HP over the two years and in a similar way to above they spread it over the last couple of months to the tune of around £3k!
Not sure if I would have received it had we not been in the present situation.
The agency are certainly putting the pressure on now to do more shifts, I’ve just had an easy month, only did three days the week before last and four the week before that, by choice.
Thinking now is the time to max out and really take what’s on offer over the next two months.
I don’t consider myself to be a workaholic but have never been able to resist just taking the money!
Conor:
Truckulent:
I’m self employed and run another non driving business and can’t see an issue with this.Well for a start rolled up holiday pay was deemed illegal following an EU ruling supported by a UK employment tribunal several years ago.
dozy:
I’m not convinced it’s illegal, I brought this up when speaking to tax office about getting letters every week apx about owing tax , tax bloke didn’t seemed bothered , never said they’d look into it or anything , just wasn’t interested
If it was illegal I’d of thought they’d jump on it .That’s because policing that law is not their job and also if you listen to the message that HMRC play when you phone them up and what they say on their website it tells you that their advisors are not allowed to give you legal advice.
Hmmm.
Firstly we aren’t in the EU now. And an employment tribunal is not a judge in a court.
I’ll take my chances. The government are only bothered about tax collection. I suspect in truth they couldn’t care less whether you have your 12% now or when you’re on holiday in 4 months’ time.
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It’s not technically illegal, it was judged to be be unlawful. The notes from the case are as follows:
“The Court ruled that rolled-up holiday pay schemes are contrary to the Working Time Directive, because they could deter workers from taking their holidays. Therefore such schemes are unlawful. However, the Court went on to say that if it was transparent and comprehensible that the sums in question were in respect of annual leave then those sums could be set off against the employer’s holiday pay liability.”
I’m no legal expert but unlawfulness of rolled up pay would win hands down in the case of a full time employee working directly for a company, however a temporary worker via an agency is a another matter as long as the agency advertised as such and were therefore transparent.