Reduced Daily Rest

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Am i right in saying that it is the drivers concession whether he wants to reduce his daily rest or not.
We have been given paperwork for a new job ( in my case by post) it means we start off from the depot, drop and drive in Bristol, then drive to Stroud and park, being told we must park up by 1800, in order to commence work at 0300 to tip the loaded trailer in Maidstone at 0630.
Theres a couple of issues here.

  1. i dont go to bed at 1800
  2. i dont take 9 hour breaks
  3. i think the journey from Stroud to Maidstone is longer than 3.5 hrs

this job hasnt been thought out properly as they have forgotten about vehicle/trailer checks, and the M4/M25 traffic to contend with, and Me who only takes 11 hr rest breaks.

2

Am i right in saying that it is the drivers concession whether he wants to reduce his daily rest or not.

YES - you are correct :slight_smile:

3

To clarify this, as far as I’m aware there’s no law or regulation that gives the driver sole rights to decide on weather or not a 9 hour daily rest is taken, probably the best you could do would be to play the safety card if you don’t want to reduce a daily rest to 9 hours.

I’ve seen people posting that it’s solely the drivers decision on several occasions, but I’m yet to see a link to this law :wink:

4

I would guess it depends on your contract of employment as to what hours they can ask you to do. I don’t think there’s anything in the law that says that you can refuse to reduce your rest as long as it is legal in the tacho rules. I suspect claims that you can legally refuse are another MMTM urban myth.

Paul

5

Despite what others say Truckyboy, it is up to you, you have the ultimate decision.

The Drivers hours rules say, amongst all sorts of other things, you may extend, you may reduce etc, That’s you mate, the driver, simple, you may if you want or if you’re up to it., whatever. No harm in the employer asking for this, that or the other though.

6

Any driver can refuse to drive if they feel that they have not had enough rest - any employer who puts pressure on a driver to do so would now be culpable under the new corporate law.
just tell the boss that you need 11 hours rest to properly rest and if they want you to do any different then you want it in writing from them on company headed paper with your reasons listed as well- sorted :smiley:

7

DAFMAD:
Despite what others say Truckyboy, it is up to you, you have the ultimate decision.

The Drivers hours rules say, amongst all sorts of other things, you may extend, you may reduce etc, That’s you mate, the driver, simple, you may if you want or if you’re up to it., whatever. No harm in the employer asking for this, that or the other though.

Yes this is true but you may find your self looking for a new job.

And before anyone sais they cant fire you I KNOW THAT but it happens over a few weeks a couple of warnings then it’s bye bye…

And during interviews now, most get asked are you happy to do lots of overtime if you say no you wont get the job…but they wont tell you why.

8

DAFMAD:
Despite what others say Truckyboy, it is up to you, you have the ultimate decision.

The Drivers hours rules say, amongst all sorts of other things, you may extend, you may reduce etc, That’s you mate, the driver, simple, you may if you want or if you’re up to it., whatever.

Fine m8 but where do the drivers hours rules say that the driver has the sole decision?

It’s OK to just say it’s so, but how about a link to these regulations !!!

ROG:
Any driver can refuse to drive if they feel that they have not had enough rest

Of cause they can, but weather or not they keep their job after repeatedly refusing is another story.

9

Fine m8 but where do the drivers hours rules say that the driver has the sole decision?

Whos other decision is it to be ? - no-ones as far as I can see… every rule that I have seen in my career says the ultimate decision to drive is that of the driver.

10

Info taken from the Rules on drivers hours and tachographs.
Goods vehicles in the UK and Europe. ( Revised 2007 )

The booklet is FREE from all Vosa testing stations by request and is a general guidance.

If you are driving under the GB domestic driver’s Hours Rules

weekly working times, which must not exceed an average of 48 hours per week over the referance period ( Although individuals can 'opt out ’ of this requirement if they want to )

An entitlement to 4.8 weeks ’ paid annual leave ( increased to 5.6 weeks from april 1st 2009 ,health checks for night workers, and entitlement to ADEQUATE rest.

’ ADEQUATE REST ’ means that workers should have regular rest periods. These rest periods should be sufficiently long and continuous to ensure that workers do not harm themselves, fellow workers or others and that they do not damage their health in the short or long term

11

tachograph:
Fine m8 but where do the drivers hours say that the driver has the sole decision?

It’s OK to just say it’s so, but how about a link to these regulations !!!

Firstly let me clarify that this sort of problem rarely affects me personally at all as I like to get on and do lots of hours and try and make things work the best for both me and the job.

That said, I would have thought with a name like yours you would know the rules, so where does it say that the employer has the decision ? the driver cannot decide for himself ? I think you’ll find the employer has to abide by the drivers hours rules. They say the driver may do this that and the other. Where does the rules say your employer can overrule the drivers decision on any reductions and or extensions etc ? They do not say, the employer may make these decisions for the driver.

12

I can see where ‘tachograph’ is coming from - he is quoting the LAW and is pointing out what is, or is not said, within that LAW.
We, on the other hand, are quoting what is said in regard to good driving practices which is based on SAFETY.
SAFETY overides the LAW every time which is why the ethos of advanced driving is 1 SAFE, 2 LEGAL, 3 CONVENIENT (as poss) etc etc :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

13

As others have said if you don’t feel you’ve had enough rest to safely drive then you’re quite within your rights to refuse, but on the same basis if you regularly refuse to do this even though it would be perfectly legal within the driver’s hours regulations when other drivers are doing it then I would say your employer is quite within their rights to sack you for not being capable of doing your job properly on the grounds that you’re repeatedly refusing to carry out a reasonable request.

Disclaimer: I am not an employment lawyer (or any other kind of lawyer for that matter).

Paul

14

repton:
As others have said if you don’t feel you’ve had enough rest to safely drive then you’re quite within your rights to refuse, but on the same basis if you regularly refuse to do this even though it would be perfectly legal within the driver’s hours regulations when other drivers are doing it then I would say your employer is quite within their rights to sack you for not being capable of doing your job properly on the grounds that you’re repeatedly refusing to carry out a reasonable request.

Disclaimer: I am not an employment lawyer (or any other kind of lawyer for that matter).

Paul

This issue SHOULD be discussed at the initial interview and put in writing.
Myself is a point in case - I need 8 hours sleep a night to function properly but others can quite safely have a lot less sleep.
If my place of work is a 30 min drive away then that is 1 hour off duty plus 8 hours sleep plus eating (for argument, I cook my own dinner) & washing would be another say 2 hours - that is 11 hours off duty :exclamation: :exclamation:
If I was sleeping in a cab overnight at a Truckstop then I could probably get away with a 9 hour break - just :exclamation:
We are all individuals and knowing our own safety limitations is one of the main factors in this issue.

15

When you start at 3am on the second day doesn’t that put you onto the night shift rules? I’m not too sure about the ins and outs of it but I think you are restricted on what hours you can do if you’re a night worker.

16

Having been there many times,
Q was wondering were the hell in Stroud he was expected to park
(Except maybe at the yard he tip’s at),
and who’s going to be there to unlock the gates at 3AM :slight_smile:

Stroud is a wonderful place,
Nesting in a vally, (just like Bath),
lots of small industrial sites with narrow acess routes. :slight_smile:

17

Incontinum::

Suggest parking up at Gossington (Truck Stop) A38 @Gossington
That means running down the A419 away from Maidstone aprox 15miles

But realistically, Stroud is NOT a safe place to get some ZZzzz
Even in a locked yard.
( Mr Brother frequently has slashed curtains on Trailers he’s hooking to
from a locked, Razor Wire & Guard Dog protected yard in Stroud )

PS: If you want diesel in your tanks in the morning
Dont be tempted to run down to Michaelwood (M5)

And there realistical no were to park on the A419 between Stroud & Swindon
(except for the services on A417 at Cirencester)

Personally I’d go for Gossington !!

18

ROG:
Whos other decision is it to be ? - no-ones as far as I can see… every rule that I have seen in my career says the ultimate decision to drive is that of the driver.

To the best of my knowledge the law doesn’t specify who’s decision this would be, but that doesn’t necessarily give the driver sole decision rights nor does it mean that a driver can simply say “I don’t take 9 hour rests” without jeopardising his/her job.
Perhaps a quote from the rules you’ve seen that state it’s a drivers decision and no-one else’s may be appropriate :wink:

DAFMAD:
I would have thought with a name like yours you would know the rules, so where does it say that the employer has the decision ? the driver cannot decide for himself ? I think you’ll find the employer has to abide by the drivers hours rules. They say the driver may do this that and the other. Where does the rules say your employer can overrule the drivers decision on any reductions and or extensions etc ? They do not say, the employer may make these decisions for the driver.

The regulations don’t give an employer the sole decision on this but nor do the regulations give the driver the ultimate decision.

Actually the regulations don’t say “the driver may do this that and the other”, the drivers rules booklet produced by Vosa makes it very clear that it’s for guidance only and should not be regarded as an authoritative statement of law.

The drivers hours booklet produced by Vosa is a reflection of how Vosa will enforce the regulations, but to the best of my knowledge Vosa have no authority when it comes to employment law, and this is the regulations that would be relevant if a company decided to require a 9 hour daily rest.

Disclaimer
This publication gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete
or authoritative statement of the law. The guidance will be updated to reflect any
developments in new legislation or case law.
If you wish to check the legal position, you should refer to the main legislation listed
in Annex 1 and, if necessary, seek your own legal advice. The guidance offered in this
publication reflects VOSA’s current enforcement policy. It does not reflect interpretation
of the law in other countries.

The very first piece of relevant legislation in Annex 1 is “EC Regulation 561/2006 on drivers’ hours and tachographs”.

The daily rest requirements in EC 561/2006 state:

Article 8

  1. A driver shall take daily and weekly rest periods.

  2. Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
    previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
    have taken a new daily rest period.
    If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that
    24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours,
    then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a
    reduced daily rest period.

  3. A daily rest period may be extended to make a regular
    weekly rest period or a reduced weekly rest period.

  4. A driver may have at most three reduced daily rest
    periods between any two weekly rest periods.

No reference to who’s decision it is on 9 hour daily rests.

ROG:
I can see where ‘tachograph’ is coming from - he is quoting the LAW and is pointing out what is, or is not said, within that LAW.
We, on the other hand, are quoting what is said in regard to good driving practices which is based on SAFETY.
SAFETY overides the LAW every time which is why the ethos of advanced driving is 1 SAFE, 2 LEGAL, 3 CONVENIENT (as poss) etc etc Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I agree that to some extent we’re talking about different aspects of the same regulation.
As far as I can see the vast majority of us at TruckNet are drivers or wannabe drives, so I’m sure we would all like it to be solely the drivers decision on weather or not he/she will have reduced daily rests, however we have to deal with the law as it is and not as we would like it to be.
You say safety over-rides law every time, well to a point I would agree, but the point is that as has already been said if a driver simply says “I don’t do 9 hour daily rests” he/she could be putting their job at risk, I don’t accept that it’s as black and white as is sometime suggested.

In fact I doubt that there is a definitive answer to this question, I imagine that how an industrial tribunal would see things would depend to a large extent on the circumstances, asking a driver to have a reduced daily rest at base when that driver lives some distance from work is different to asking a driver to have a reduced daily rest when the driver is on a night out and the company know that it’s the drivers regular practice to sleep in a lay-by and have food in the cab.

19

davidj247:
When you start at 3am on the second day doesn’t that put you onto the night shift rules? I’m not too sure about the ins and outs of it but I think you are restricted on what hours you can do if you’re a night worker.

Yes m8, that’s correct.
If you do any work between 00:00 and 04:00 (for goods vehicles) you’re classed as a night worker.
As a night worker you’re restricted to working no more than 10 hours within the 24 hour period from the start of the shift, you can however opt out of this 10 hour rule if there’s a written opt-out agreement in place.

20

i may not have a great deal of experience compared to other folk on here but i have come to the conclusion in the 7 months i have been doing this job is that a bit of give and take is needed on both sides. obviously the boss has jobs to do and the driver has to think about his/her hours and safety.

sorry truckboy, i don’t mean to upset you in anyway but point blank refusing to take a 9 hour break purely for the fact that you don’t want to is a bit selfish. has this boss never helped you out in anyway? why point blank refuse to do it? he has made a honest request that you take a 9 hour rest then drive to maidstone. (the time it takes from where you stop to maidstone is irrelevant at the moment) and you say you dont go to bed at 1800. i dont get up at 0400 normally but will do if my employer asks me to.

in my opinion of the rules as well, i think the decision does rest with the driver but there is no law stopping the boss from asking.

if i was a transport boss and you point blank refused (without good reason ie. medical or legal) to take 9 hours rest instead of 11 everytime (unless it was in your contract) i would seriously consider trying to get rid of you legally and employ someone that would be a little more helpful to my needs.