OK, I know, the title lays me open to all sort of grief, but it’s Christmas and I don’t worry…
Whilst talking to a local farmer this afternoon, he was telling me about tractor problems he’s been having. Apparently, he’s been using the “wrong diesel” in his machine that has resulted in engine failure…
As far as I know, the only differences between red and white diesel are:
Duty, HM Government take a big wedge off the white diesel
Colour, dye is added
Chemical marker, so if 2) is removed, the diesel can still be identified
Smell, (not me!), but I’m sure a vehicle running red has a different odour exhaust fumes.
So, the Christmas question is…
Can any of the experts out there explain if there any other difference between red and white diesel.
as far as I know there’s very little difference other than the ones you posted
there may be less additives in the red, the bid fuel companies claim to put stuff in to help your engine run cleaner and more efficient but it’s probably ■■■■■■■■ anyway
We’ve had a similar problem in our mill with red diesel, and the problem is the percentage of biofuel in the mix. The result has been several FLT’s with knackered pumps.
According to our warehouse supervisor, the trucks are not supposed to be run on a brew with more than 10% biofuel, but the company bought (or was supplied with at any rate) a 17% mix. The biofuel apparently produces some sort of bacteria when its in the tank, which is hygroscopic; in other words it attracts water, which mixes via condensation in the air and reduces the fuel to slush.
Sunflower, did your mate say who he’d bought the diesel from? I’m back in work tomorrow, will find out where ours came from, might give a clue if its the same supplier.
There are now 2 different types of Gas Oil (red diesel) -class a2 and class d.
Class a2 is now being supplied to farms,industry etc and is now ultra low sulphur and contains up to 7% bio diesel.
Class d is the old gas oil that was used for years, but is now only supplied for marine use and also for train use.
I’m sure I read recently in the farming press that the rules on red had recently been changed and instead of it being good old high sulphur 100% mineral diesel that it was now the same low sulphur stuff as road diesel and also (as has already been said) contains a percentage of biodiesel. As a result this can, apparently, cause no end of problems with bacteria growth especially with old tanks full of sludge and farmers are being advised in many cases to install either new tanks or at the very least a fine filter on the outlet of their existing tank to prevent problems with “new” red diesel and their machinery that runs on it.
New agri equipment falls in scope of the emissions regs and as such need low sulphur diesel.
Can you remember when diesel weed was rife in the '80s, then it just seemed to disappear?
Well, now it’s back with a vengance. We’ve been out to loads of diesel weed related breakdowns in the last year, mainly down to the higher blend of bio in the diesel.
Not totally necessary to replace tanks though, there are many treatments available that kill diesel weed.
Eradicate is the one we use in out tanks.
Harry Monk:
I believe problems can arise when red diesel is illegally turned into white diesel using sulphuric acid.
Yes, we’ve had a customers vehicle with a fuelling fault that was caused by bad fuel. I had it sampled, had a very high concentration of Sodium Hypochloride in it, and much higher than average traces of dye.
Fuel place who did the analysis said with 99% confidence that it was washed fuel.
Worrying thing is, customer is an O/D, an honest guy and only ever fills up at truck stops/services.
Was it definately washed fuel or just that it contained traces of red in it?
Nearly all the white tanks in the country will have traces of red in them, as the tankers that deliver to them will be used for both.
We washed our tank out thoroughly when we moved it about 2 years ago, customs dipped it not long after and found it to contain traces of red. In that period we only ever used 1 supplier. They came and drained the tank out again, flushed it and refilled it FOC. I rang around other suppliers in the area. None of them would guarantee their white supplies would be free from red, and they all said the same thing: You won’t get any supplier anywhere to guarantee this.
cieranc:
Was it definately washed fuel or just that it contained traces of red in it? Nearly all the white tanks in the country will have traces of red in them, as the tankers that deliver to them will be used for both. We washed our tank out thoroughly when we moved it about 2 years ago, customs dipped it not long after and found it to contain traces of red. In that period we only ever used 1 supplier. They came and drained the tank out again, flushed it and refilled it FOC. I rang around other suppliers in the area. None of them would guarantee their white supplies would be free from red, and they all said the same thing: You won’t get any supplier anywhere to guarantee this.
But surely if you only buy bulk fuel from legitimate suppliers( and can prove it ) there might well be “minute” traces of red derv present because of contamination but they would be so “minute” as not to cause any problem to HM Customs and Excise. But if the fuel was been supplied by spurious sources then the alarm bells would start ringing as it would be "odds on " that the derv was “dodgy”. Bewick.
chris_g:
after awhile red diesel will nacker the engine
Urban myth, which is given credence by the fact that most stuff which used to run on DERV is shagged out by the time it becomes a yard vehicle anyway, and once they come off the road maintenance becomes as required rather than mandatory.
If red diesel knackers engines how come there’s a 40/50 year old Fergie tractor on virtually every farm I visit, used for scraping out the byres cos nothing else will cope with the crap? And fridges, surely the most critical of all engines as far as reliability is concerned, run on red unless I’m very much mistaken.
Bewick:
But surely if you only buy bulk fuel from legitimate suppliers( and can prove it ) there might well be “minute” traces of red derv present because of contamination but they would be so “minute” as not to cause any problem to HM Customs and Excise. But if the fuel was been supplied by spurious sources then the alarm bells would start ringing as it would be "odds on " that the derv was “dodgy”. Bewick.
Only ever got it from one supplier (long established reputable firm), they didn’t question it when I said customs had been, they get it all the time. Customs guy said the same, aknowledged the fuel all came from the same place (showed him 3 years worth of tickets),and said it was a tiny quantity that could have just been what’s been residual in the pipes, but still gave it the old “I don’t make the rules blah blah blah” speech and said it needed flushing out. There was no action against us or the supplier, they just wanted proof it had been flushed.
chris_g:
after awhile red diesel will nacker the engine
Urban myth, which is given credence by the fact that most stuff which used to run on DERV is shagged out by the time it becomes a yard vehicle anyway, and once they come off the road maintenance becomes as required rather than mandatory.
If red diesel knackers engines how come there’s a 40/50 year old Fergie tractor on virtually every farm I visit, used for scraping out the byres cos nothing else will cope with the crap? And fridges, surely the most critical of all engines as far as reliability is concerned, run on red unless I’m very much mistaken.
as an experiment a c reg astra van that had been serviced most of its life and with around 80,000 miles on the clock was run on it for around 6 months
it done approx 40 - 50 miles a day 6 days a week
after a while the engine got harder to start so out come the easy start to get it started then it wouldnt start as the injectors were nackered which was due to the red diesel
Astra vans were crap full stop, i know as i had one they were never very good at starting on a good day never mind with 80000 miles on the clock!
Industrial engines all over the country are run on red without problems, i’ve never heard anyone useing white diesel in a generator, forktruck,dumper,digger,boat,tractor,…the list could go on and on!
moose
chris_g:
after awhile red diesel will nacker the engine
Urban myth, which is given credence by the fact that most stuff which used to run on DERV is shagged out by the time it becomes a yard vehicle anyway, and once they come off the road maintenance becomes as required rather than mandatory.
If red diesel knackers engines how come there’s a 40/50 year old Fergie tractor on virtually every farm I visit, used for scraping out the byres cos nothing else will cope with the crap? And fridges, surely the most critical of all engines as far as reliability is concerned, run on red unless I’m very much mistaken.
as an experiment a c reg astra van that had been serviced most of its life and with around 80,000 miles on the clock was run on it for around 6 months
it done approx 40 - 50 miles a day 6 days a week
after a while the engine got harder to start so out come the easy start to get it started then it wouldnt start as the injectors were nackered which was due to the red diesel
Take it that was not in the last 12 months though?
Pre 2011 the red diesel was very high in sulphur, and needed additives for the more modern tractor engines, its now the same spec as white, just with a dye added
There is no difference with red or white diesel, both types have to conform to EU regs regarding sulphur. but there are government people who will scaremonger to stop you using red, and some fools believe them.
with red diesel, there is a tracer which can’t be easily removed. the dye can be removed using various methods, but most methods remove the lubricating properties in the fuel and can damage the pump with prolonged use.
the best method is really easy, but time consuming.
fill a clear 25 litre container with red diesel, put it in a south facing garden/yard, and wait a few weeks.
the sun bleaches out the dye.
summer only.
