Re: Morgan Mclernon

eddie snax:

Scanner:
Meanwhile on the O/D forum, a large haulier is being discussed in some quite derogatory terms by some of the posters.

They’re quoting rates, workload, planning abilities, relationships, payment terms with gay abandon and no sanction, not even the suggestion of such.
.

But if the posters have invoices, schedules, payment terms, hard copy off actual terms, and hard copy (emails etc) of relationship issues with company X, and as O/D’s they would, then there is the hard evidence to back up posts made on that forum if said company wished to persue Trucknet through the courts.

Having said that, if to much censorship takes place, then the whole point of the open forum will be lost.

But Rikki has a fine line to walk and I dont wish to add to his troubles :wink:

Sure, but posting commercially sensitive information?

switchlogic:
Forums are the only place to find out about companies because the likes of T&D and Commercial Motor are basically promotional brochures for various companies. Some decent investigative journalism would go a long way in my opinion and may make some of us buy magazines again for the first time in years.

Exactly. The nearest I’ve seen a transport magazine get to investigative journalism was the old T&D feature, where they would accost drivers in cafes and interrogate them about the firm they worked for. I’d love to hear from anyone who contributed to those features about how accurately their words were put in to print.

Do they still have a forearm fetish in these magazines? It’s common knowledge that the bigger your arms, shorter your hair and the more tattoos you have, the more likely you are to get featured in T&D.

Scanner:
Do they still have a forearm fetish in these magazines? It’s common knowledge that the bigger your arms, shorter your hair and the more tattoos you have, the more likely you are to get featured in T&D.

and that’s just the women!

Seriously, Rikki has a point.

You can publish facts (providing they are true and can be substantiated), you may well get taken to court, but you are likely to be able to mount an effective defence.

You can publish ‘opinion’ and providing that it is honestly held and presented as an opinion ‘in my view’ for instance, and providing that you don’t have another motive (ie working for a rival company) then you can defend yourself as making ‘fair comment’ even if you are wrong.

Road testers, Parkers etc can either make it clear that they are presenting an opinion “I found the Togoba Cyclone to be noisy and uncomfortable” or they can present fact “The build quality of the Togoba is appalling,” but be prepared to back it with hard evidence (in the first year of production there were 120 safety related recalls on the Togoba Cyclone).

In law, the author (poster) and the publisher (Rikki and his employers) can both get sued.

So he’s protecting you as well as himself.

In the years I edited a transport magazine we got occasional angry calls from truck manufacturers about things we had written…they sometimes cancelled advertising too. Sometimes they threatened to cancel ads they hadn’t even booked, which was quite funny.

We also used to get complaints about articles that had appeared in other magazines, and complaints from people who clearly hadn’t even read the article in question. On a bus and coach magazine I even had a complaint from an operator about a report we had published about his appearance at a public inquiry. It turned out that the guy couldn’t read (!), but he just didn’t think we should have written about him at all. All of which was funny, but also a bit of a waste of time.

switchlogic:
[
Why the worry over being sued??

Could be wrong, but i imagine it’s to do with all those links at the bottom of Rikki-UK’s posts.

Commercial Moaner journalists aren’t known for having a print-and-be-damned approach to things. Their idea of risky is asking the wife if they can order a Ford Focus in metallic instead of solid beige.
[/quote]
:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: That’s pretty much on the money as I see it. I know Rikki has to walk a fine line but it would be nice if we had a publication and a forum that stuck up for drivers sometimes. Its all good and well saying ‘we’ll get sued’ but you know it works both ways. To sue you the company would have to prove that the poster is lying. Forums are the only place to find out about companies because the likes of T&D and Commercial Motor are basically promotional brochures for various companies. Some decent investigative journalism would go a long way in my opinion and may make some of us buy magazines again for the first time in years.
[/quote]
The 'burden of proof is the other way around…you have to prove everything published is true, and hearsay evidence just gets you into more trouble.

Using the phrase ‘innocent face’ on a social network cost someone big money not too long ago.

GasGas:

switchlogic:
[
Why the worry over being sued??

Could be wrong, but i imagine it’s to do with all those links at the bottom of Rikki-UK’s posts.

Commercial Moaner journalists aren’t known for having a print-and-be-damned approach to things. Their idea of risky is asking the wife if they can order a Ford Focus in metallic instead of solid beige.

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: That’s pretty much on the money as I see it. I know Rikki has to walk a fine line but it would be nice if we had a publication and a forum that stuck up for drivers sometimes. Its all good and well saying ‘we’ll get sued’ but you know it works both ways. To sue you the company would have to prove that the poster is lying. Forums are the only place to find out about companies because the likes of T&D and Commercial Motor are basically promotional brochures for various companies. Some decent investigative journalism would go a long way in my opinion and may make some of us buy magazines again for the first time in years.
[/quote]
The 'burden of proof is the other way around…you have to prove everything published is true, and hearsay evidence just gets you into more trouble.

Using the phrase ‘innocent face’ on a social network cost someone big money not too long ago.
[/quote]
If I can find a copy of CM I’m going to calculate the volume of advertising vs content. I reckon would be 85% advertising on a slim week.

And if it wasn’t for the advertising, CM would cost about £20 a copy to support its editorial team, print and distribution costs.

Yes, but does anyone know what they’re like to work for??
:laughing: :open_mouth:

war1974:
but isn’t the whole point of a forum people posting their own opinions etc not that trucknet is personally responsible for what individuals write? some people have very dim views of certain companies but it is their own opinion.

also if that is the case why do so many posts exist regarding agencies being nothing more than scumbags who rob drivers etc?

well it seems we are not allowed to post our opinion…maybe we have to ask permission to post our opinion…and have it checked and re worded by Herr von chip on my shoulder before we can post it, but then it wouldnt be my opinion… Now this will get deleted :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

steveo999:
Yes, but does anyone know what they’re like to work for??
:laughing: :open_mouth:

Any (true!) info please on wages, work and if they are taking on??!

It’s a good job mainstream media doesn’t take the trade press approach and only serve one group, advertisers. Truck & Driver can have driver in its title as much as it likes, as I see it it does nothing for drivers. Like I say, they are all just promotional tools for companies. And before anyone says about mainstream media not having to worry about losing advertisers, most of the newspapers are losing money hand over fist. Doesn’t stop them engaging in proper investigative journalism.

irishrover:

skids:
They are paying £500 in bank every week plus night out money. Its 6 shifts 1st week, 5 shifts 2nd week. They have 14 trucks at Telford working for CML but this will eventually double.
They have a “red with bells on” OCRS rating, have had quite a few problems but are desperately trying to clean up their act.[/quot

From a thread Feb this year.

Sorry double post.

switchlogic:
It’s a good job mainstream media doesn’t take the trade press approach and only serve one group, advertisers. Truck & Driver can have driver in its title as much as it likes, as I see it it does nothing for drivers. Like I say, they are all just promotional tools for companies. And before anyone says about mainstream media not having to worry about losing advertisers, most of the newspapers are losing money hand over fist. Doesn’t stop them engaging in proper investigative journalism.

and what about The Sun, continually bigging up the (fictional) driver shortage and taking ads off the rip-of training brokers? Is that proper investigative journalism?

CM and/or T&D could no doubt make a fortune if they did an ‘advertorial’ deal with one or more of the brokers, but they won’t.

Across the piece, the transport mags do ‘name and shame’ the guilty operators…court, tribunal and TC hearings for a start.

What they won’t do is name and shame allegedly guilty operators on the say-so of disgruntled ex-employees or business rivals.

In my experience of reporting on the truck, bus & coach industry, folk are only too keen to ‘tell you what to write’ about company X, but when you ask them for proper evidence (even a written statement of their allegations) you never hear from them again.

Well if you think when I talk of investigative journalism I mean the Sun then this debate is going nowhere.

Btw investigative journalism involves the journalists finding the facts, not waiting for everything to drop into their laps. Nothing will change in this industry until we have some journalists prepared to do some leg work and stir things up. So I wont hold my breath.

P.s, reporting court proceedings and prosecutions doesn’t count.

switchlogic:
Well if you think when I talk of investigative journalism I mean the Sun then this debate is going nowhere.

That’s a bloody cracker - love it… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

The point I was making is that while The Sun will throw resources into ‘investigating’ kiss & tell stories etc…do they (the largest and most powerful newspaper in the UK) run any stories on the transport industry along the lines you suggest?

Or, indeed, any other industry?

I genuinely don’t know, I don’t read the Sun…but someone on here must.

I’d be interested if anyone can quote (with a link) a good example of investigative journalism published in UK newspapers in the last year or so. I think there’s occasionally some good stuff in the Mirror, but most of the broadsheets are filled with middle-class ‘opinion’ pieces written by Londoners about parking, cycling and problems with servants.

The tabloids are kiss and tell, death of Diana/disappearance of Maddie, what was shown on reality TV last night and what’s going to happen in next week’s soaps.

Thought i would join the debate on this issue, i know where Rikki is coming from, and its no different to a newspaper printing libel. And if its not substantiated, they will and do get sued, and for large sums of money. So the only way forward, is to think before you print, if you are saying bad things about a company, first get it in writing as proof. I would say its ok to put on T/Net, if it has been pre-reported, but thats an issue for the Admin staff. As for drivers comments, i dont think anything will be said by the team, unless its against a company, or person, and could be proved to be libel, then T/Net is in big trouble, and obviously thats an area that they want to avoid, after all, it could close T/Net, and ruin the owners, and put a lot of people out of a job.

Whilst still on the subject, you also have to be careful what you write about your own company ( the one you work for ) Where i used to work, there were spies in the office, who would troll through T/Net, Facebook etc to see who was writing about the company, and in one instance, i was diciplined for supposedly writing derogatory comments about the company and employers. What i wrote was actually hearsay ( which i did mention ) and was spoken to me by an owner driver, who was highly thought of within the company, i didnt drop him in the doggy ■■■ at the disciplinary though ( thats not my nature ) but i got a final written warning…so beware.

GasGas:
but most of the broadsheets are filled with middle-class ‘opinion’ pieces written by Londoners about parking, cycling and problems with servants.

You don’t seem to have read broadsheets have you? Some examples of broadsheet investigative journalism from the past two three years. Guardian, Wikileaks and Transfigura. Telegraph, MPs expenses. There’s some on the tip of my tongue that I’ll remember shortly. Try reading a broadsheet, you may be surprised. The Sun and the Mirror have never been bastions of investigative journalism. I clearly wasn’t talking about tabloids. And expecting a mainstream media organisation to run with an industry specific piece that doesn’t concern the public at large would be naive. Why should they when our own trade press wont?

The Telegraph purchased a stolen document (some years ago now), and the Guardian reprinted something that was on the internet.

Now, where’s the investigative journalism in either of those?

Real investigative journalism is something like Thalidomide (Sunday Times, pre-Murdoch) or Watergate (Washington Post).

Both way back when in the last century.

The ST used to have the Insight Team, who were investigative journalists who could spend months working on a single story before a word of it appeared in print…axed by Murdoch who changed the paper into a cheerleader for Maggie and urban middle-class consumerism.

The top and bottom of it is that this site is passed it’s sell by date. It’s over sensored and moderated by people with no experience whatsoever of this type of media.

The whole idea of a forum is for people to discuss and debate, if the powers that be are so worried about being sued post a disclaimer at the bottom of every page. And if a company or individual are liabled then the moderators need to pass on details to the people who are taking legal action, then move on.

What ever happened to free speech?