Question regarding mini roundabouts

[shortfatbaldy]

Hiyya Ya’all,

Here’s a question regarding mini roundabouts.

There’s one on a test route and I can’t work out the signalling - and I don’t have any more training time coming up soon.

In the good old days it would have been side road on the left. Today it’s a mini roundabout. On the test route, it’s straight over at 12 o’clock, so no signal on approach. But what about signalling off? By the time the truck is level with the previous exit, it’s already through and almost out the other side. So when do I signal left to leave the roundabout?

It seems to me that there are two possibilities:

1 - Don’t signal since the manoeuvre is already over and signalling would actually be misleading.

2 - Signal left the instant I’m on the roundabout and to hell with misleading.

OK I know it’s a highway code question and not directly relevant to trucking, but someone might be interested in answering.

[rog]

You will never have the time to signal off a mini roundabout - your wheels will be there first.
This is acceptable for the DSA & advanced driving.
If your vehicle is too large to negotiate the paint - don’t try to.

[rog]

You testing in GLOS? If yes, which mini is it? I test there.

[shortfatbaldy]

Testing in Featherstone. Route through Wednesbury.

[mothertrucker]

Treat mini roundabouts like a crossroads.
Signal either left or right on approach if turning that way then cancell as you would on ordinary crossroads.
When going straight ahead approach with no signals and drive straight across when safe to do so as you would at a normal crossroads.

[krankee]

If you haven’t got time to signal, then simply comment to that effect.

“I would have signalled but it wouldn’t have served a purpose.” emphasises that you considered the need.

Whilst you are not expected to give a commentary, if you have a train of thought that is logical in the circumstances, then there is no reason why you shouldn’t express it…and then STFU and carry on.

[mothertrucker]

If you haven’t got time to signal, then simply comment to that effect.

“I would have signalled but it wouldn’t have served a purpose.” emphasises that you considered the need.

Signalling left to leave a mini roundabout is actually a fail point.
Once upon a time one owas expected to signal to leave a mini roundabout.
then it became optional depending on if you had time or not.
Then it became a no-no.
I have seen candidates being marked with a serious doing this.
I did query the decision with the examiner and I was told that mini roundabouts must be treated as a crossroads - No left signal to leave.

So telling the examiner that you would normally signal on a mini would not be a good idea.

[smart_mart]

I’ve never heard of anyone signalling left to leave a min-roundabout and failing their test, unless their signal was timed incorrectly.

In my experience I have had issues with an examiner used to give a minor for not signalling of a mini roundabout and one who says its not neccesary - both at the same test centre.

Having said that my pupils signal if they wish and have time or don’t bother if they prefer and there have been no problems with examiners either way.

Of course there are different sizes of junctions that have mini-roundabouts and it is really up to common sense and/or the instructors experience to decide if a signal should be given.

[shortfatbaldy]

Humph! Not much agreement here, then.

The bit about treating mini roundabouts as crossroads isn’t borne out by the Highway Code. See 188 below.

The Highway code doesn’t explicitly deal with the answer to the question that I posed.

I quite understand that “Of course there are different sizes of junctions that have mini-roundabouts and it is really up to common sense and/or the instructors experience to decide if a signal should be given.” The problem is that the particular junction is far too small for signals to be of any practical use. However, that doesn’t seem to be the main guiding principle for DSA.

The information about roundabouts below, if you want to check it, is found from:

direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr … /index.htm

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
186
Signals and position.

When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
• keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout
• you should not normally need to signal on approach
• stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

188
Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

We have a problem with language here:

What does “approach” mean? Does approach mean “to draw near to” or does it mean “a systematic behaviour”

[rog]

“to draw near to”

And just to mix it up a bit more - if the first exit on a mini is effectively ‘straight on’ with the second exit to the right then a signal for the first exit may be given if it is useful to another road user - this type of signal can also help you as it keeps the oncoming flow going which blocks anyone coming out of the exit to your right (the right turn)

[rob_k]

Shortfatbaldy:
Humph! Not much agreement here, then.

WTF??

Which part of everyone agreeing that you shouldn’t signal is “not much agreement” ?

Have you not read the replies?

Rog and mothertrucker are both truck instructors so they know what they’re talking about.

just don’t ask Rog about brushing kerbs

[rog]

just don’t ask Rog about brushing kerbs

I saw that

[mothertrucker]

I’ve never heard of anyone signalling left to leave a min-roundabout and failing their test, unless their signal was timed incorrectly.

Well I have - on more than one occasion. At Enfield test centre it was always one of the red hot fail points. ( I use the past tense only beause I dont work in that area now)

If you are worried about any particular point - such as this one - then make a point of asking your instructor for a black and white answer. do you signal on minis or dont you.
If you are still not satisfied with the answer then knock on the examiners door and politely tell them that you are a learner and would like to clarify one particular point. They are only human and you have the right to ask - although you should not have to as it is your instructors job to put you in the picture clearly on all queries that you may have.

[rob_k]

@ Rog.

[rog]

Mothertrucker:
If you are still not satisfied with the answer then knock on the examiners door and politely tell them that you are a learner and would like to clarify one particular point. They are only human and you have the right to ask - although you should not have to as it is your instructors job to put you in the picture clearly on all queries that you may have.

IMO if a trainee has to ask the examiner on such a point then the instructor is not doing their job. Again, IMO, it is the instructors job to clarify such points with the examiners. The trainees have enough to worry about without having to go to the examiners’ door.

[smart_mart]

Rob K says:-

Rog and mothertrucker are both truck instructors so they know what they’re talking about.

So is Smart Mart BTW

[shortfatbaldy]

Rob K:

Shortfatbaldy:
Humph! Not much agreement here, then.

WTF??

Which part of everyone agreeing that you shouldn’t signal is “not much agreement” ?

Have you not read the replies?

Rog and mothertrucker are both truck instructors so they know what they’re talking about.

just don’t ask Rog about brushing kerbs

The “not much agreement” refers to the lack of agreement between examiners in different centres and even within the same centre.

I realise that most people are in agreement that it isn’t necessary to signal, but if the examiners don’t agree, that’s not much consolation.

I’m really puzzled by mothertrucker’s info that the interpetation of the rules at once test centre seems to have changed with time.

Does anyone know if there is a facility within DSA to answer questions of this type?

After all, the examiner’s decision is final. If it is made on a personal whim or misinformation regarding the rules regarding signals, then there is a systemic problem within DSA.

[smart_mart]

Shortfatbaldy said:-
After all, the examiner’s decision is final. If it is made on a personal whim or misinformation regarding the rules regarding signals, then there is a systemic problem within DSA.

At a meeting with the DSA last year that I was at, I spoke to Rosemary Thew the Chief Executive over lunch about variations between examiners and was backed up by another instructor from another area. She said all examiners should be consitent with each other and with DSA guidelines. She was dismayed to find out that the didn’t seem to be the case and was going to look into it!

[big_d]

If there is no time to signal - could you be going to fast ? If you slowed just a little you make time …

[rog]

Does anyone know if there is a facility within DSA to answer questions of this type?

policy@dsa.gsi.gov.uk