Question on working time directive

Why do drivers try and get around WTD as if to say “Hey, I WANT my boss to force me to work an 84 hour week - I’m not happy at all at being limited to 48 hours for the same pay!”

When RM introduced their compliance routine to the whole thing, you were awarded zero hours for breaks (because they were unpaid) but NOT zero hours for POA, since it isn’t recognised by them, being paid every hour when not on break instead.

The first 20 days leave a year (statutory leave) counted as 8 hours per day, with all leave beyond 20 days counting as zero hours a day.
If you booked a full week’s holiday, you were awared 48 hours against, regardless of you having a 4,5 or 6 day normal working week. This meant for those with a 4 or 5 day working week, fully aided by a brain, you booked as many odd days out of your full year’s leave entitlement as possible - I certainly did!

Some duties were re-written to be longer shifts over less days per week, to get as many as possible on working weeks around the 48 mark. The clock was zeroed at the end of each 26 week reference period.

If you wanted to work a day’s overtime therefore, in order to keep the balance, you needed to take a day’s non-stat leave before the end of the 26 week period. This would mean taking a lot of “odd days” rather than blocks of leave like would normally be the case. Because of the need to take odd days leave, the firm also left a loophole for those on 4 day weeks, but in their minds, compensated for it by clipping the 4-day weeker’s leave entitlement so that it was measured in “weeks” rather than “days”. Eg. If your entitlement was 5 weeks, and you did a 5 day week, you got 25 days leave per year. If you worked a 4 day week, your five week’s entitlement was only 20 days, because it was 5x4! New Recruits therefore could not legally be put on 4 day weeks, because they’d only have the base 4 week holiday entitlement, and working the 4 day week would give them a mere 16 days leave a year, which is below minimum legal requirements! This prevented abuses like “Johnny come lately” picking you out of your plum job, because he wouldn’t have the holiday seniority (the only seniority that exists in royal mail if one is to be honest…) to obtain the 5 weeks holiday requirement needed to pick into a 4 day week duty set!

In any case, hours were banked when you did less than 48 in a week (not including the breaks).

Eg.
Week 1-20 you did 48 hours every week (your normal hours)
Week 21-25 you decide to cram the overtime, thus gaining 8 hours per week against your (for instance) so you’d also have to take a day’s non-stat leave to bring the balance back to 48 hours. If the day booked as leave was a longer day (say, 12 hours) then you could put in a 12 hour shift as an overtime day, and still maintain the balance. You tended therefore to book duty days off that had longer base shifts, thus it gave you more banked hours back than booking off a “short shift” day. I would have thought that this is obvious and common sense, but you’d be suprised how many chose to never take odd days off on the longer shifts rather than the shorter ones!

The key points here are (1) taking leave in dribs and drabs, (2) taking a balanced amount of leave on both sides of the 26 week cut off throughout the year, and (3) assuming you actually want to max-out any overtime worked.

For salaried people on 5 day weeks, I gather that you won’t be paid extra for working overtime, so any delays are surely booked as POA, and count zero towards aggregate.?
I can’t really understand what people’s beef with all this is. Yes, it sound complicated enough so that some staff will forego overtime, as they’re not sure they can get their hours to balance if they DO some! That’s ok for people like me, who’ll just step in and pick up all the plummy overtime shifts, taking advantage of being able to read the system better than others it seems. :grimacing: :grimacing:

No doubt working out how to work a 56-60 hour week paid on a regular basis makes me a scumbag as usual in the eyes of those who can’t be arsed to work it all out, but it’s not my fault that I’m in the minority for being “paid by the hour” (even as a full timer) rather than salaried in the first place, which just leaves one open to the constant employer abuse of working huge weekly hourages, based upon the time you walk out of your front door to the time you walk back in it again x shifts per week.

All drivers should be trying to get 60 hours pay for being on duty 48 hours rather than being on duty 56-60 hours, away from home 84 hours plus, AND being limited to 48 hours pay, which is how the system will abuse THEM if they let it!

How many full time employers are still paying by the hour as opposed to salaried anyway? - If hourly paid, you finish 2 hours late, you automatically book 2 hours overtime. If you are salaried, you get “banked hours” instead, and might get a day off in lieu occasionally, but from what I’ve seen of it (sainsburys for example), you don’t hold your breath…

The compliance officer is the one trying to appese the authorities here, and might be “forced” to give you paid time off if they screw up on your hours, which usually takes the form of limiting the amount of overtime that people book to take full account of banked hours.
At RM, the overtime was given to the applying driver with the most “banked hours” to spare, which actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it!

I bet no one is obeying the WTD on working longer than 10 hour shifts on nights though! :smiling_imp:

change of post

I have always said this WTD and the Silly POA, WAS A LOAD OF HORSE S, THE HOURS REG SHOULD JUST HAVE BEEN MADE TO FIT IN WITH TACHO, JUST ONE SET OF RULES ,DHOE

Wheel Nut:
Forget it.

I don’t mean forget about it, but I will wager my household income that you are not “working” anywhere near the limits.

As your employer is spending money on a compliance manager, ask him to show you where you are going wrong. It is the main reason your wages are crap, he will be on 30k for writing memos. :stuck_out_tongue:

If compesate means compensation, forget it, the word is only used once in the whole EC 2002/15 Road Transport Directive. (in this instance it doesn’t apply to the driver)

hi wheel nut you seem to most things on the forum
could you enlighten me on the quote with more detail, all i wanna do is work HOW COMES STOBBARTS DRIVERS WORK CLOSE TO 15 HRS EVERYDAY

Pallet runners (double decker curtains) around here all work 15 hours a day as well. Being a monday-friday business at the hub, that’s obviously a gross 75 hours per week.

The trick is, you get there, get tipped, and then spend 3.5 hours a night on unpaid POA, and another hour on break thus only doing a 52.5 hour week, further mitigated down to the 48 WTD average by having 4 weeks leave per year, and bank holidays off.

This is all a total misuse of EVERYTHING represented rules-wise however, but prospective drivers see the shiny £500 per week headline wages, and fall into the trap that pays them a net £5 per hour… :angry:

At least doing that particular job on agency means you get paid 14 hours (15-1) per night, your POA included in the hours paid. :wink:

I’ve ended up handing back shifts of this kind of work on agencies, because I won’t be working a 75 hour week, and have no interested in “taking some of it unpaid” in order to assist my client employer to fiddle it… :imp:

Winseer:
Pallet runners (double decker curtains) around here all work 15 hours a day as well. Being a monday-friday business at the hub, that’s obviously a gross 75 hours per week.

The trick is, you get there, get tipped, and then spend 3.5 hours a night on unpaid POA, and another hour on break thus only doing a 52.5 hour week, further mitigated down to the 48 WTD average by having 4 weeks leave per year, and bank holidays off.

How is a regular daily rest fitted into that? I could understand if the 3.5 hrs was taken as part of a split rest - but it’s not ? :question:

Regular drivers will be parked up and getting their heads down during this 3.5 hour stint between being tipped, and being backloaded at the same depot.
My problem with it all is that as someone not used to being in the right bits at the right moment, that 3.5 hour window turns into "upto 3.5 hours if the job is done straight with no hitches - unlikely on your first few days on that particular job. Net result, enough time to take a 45 break, but not enough to get any sleep in before it’s time to be re-loaded.

Then there’s the problem with only 9 hours off between shifts - 4 days rather than the max allowed 3. Everyone is on a flyer on friday nights to attempt “getting around that”, but it doesn’t anyway, because the gap would have needed to be at the BEGINNING of the friday shift - ie come in 4 hours later than usual on the friday! Add to all that, the problem of “nodding dog” when you’re commuting 90 minutes each way to a 15 hour shift on the other days, having only had a 9 hour gap. By the time you’re at home in bed, that’s down to a 6 hour gap from getting in your front door to leaving it for the next shift!

Knocking it on the head for the rest of the week after getting home dead beat on Thursday Morning (3 shifts in) seemed the best way to not only remain legal, but save my life (and probably that of others!) into the bargain. :frowning:

At £13.50ph and only a 1 hour deduction, it had to be the best paid work ever at the particular agency giving out the work (Croydon) but it’s a killer!
I wasn’t asked back after I ditched the rest of the week after 3 days needless to say… :sunglasses:

gothika:

Wheel Nut:
Forget it.

I don’t mean forget about it, but I will wager my household income that you are not “working” anywhere near the limits.

As your employer is spending money on a compliance manager, ask him to show you where you are going wrong. It is the main reason your wages are crap, he will be on 30k for writing memos. :stuck_out_tongue:

If compesate means compensation, forget it, the word is only used once in the whole EC 2002/15 Road Transport Directive. (in this instance it doesn’t apply to the driver)

hi wheel nut you seem to most things on the forum
could you enlighten me on the quote with more detail, all i wanna do is work HOW COMES STOBBARTS DRIVERS WORK CLOSE TO 15 HRS EVERYDAY

Simple, they are either running bent or working across two weekly periods;

You can drive 9 hours per day, which may be extended to ten hours two times in a week

You must take 11 hours rest every day but this can be reduced to 9 hours three times between weekly rest periods

A week means the time between 00.00 Monday and 24.00 Sunday

Now tell me that they are doing 15 hours every day

Wheel Nut:
Simple, they are either running bent or working across two weekly periods;Now tell me that they are doing 15 hours every day

I had my post removed stating that they’re running bent! I should know I’m still here! :grimacing: :grimacing:

Are we missing the point of “working” 15 hour shifts, whilst only “driving” less than 9 of it? :open_mouth:

It’s all that unpaid time laid-up somewhere waiting that causes the hassle.

Everyone NEEDS a shorter than 15 hour shift on the last working day of the week (friday for many) - one starting later in order to keep the 9 hour gaps down to the max 3 per week.

How many get sent out on a 15 hour duty on friday, and then find themselves laid up for the entire weekend, because they didn’t see the liability they were exposing themselves to?

Basically what I’m saying is it is upto the driver to object and say “■■■■■■■■” when ordered to put in a shift longer than they want - especially when it falls upon the last working day of the week! Am I understanding correctly that it is generally assumed that overtime shifts (lasting over 8 hours) cannot be refused when pushed at the full time driver? Or is it just a case of drivers failing to stand up for themselves out of “fear of upsetting the boss, and losing their job in these 'ard times”? :smiling_imp:

I’m used to an overtime environment where you actually have to ask for some, rather than just get given it out of hand when you don’t want it… :unamused:

I think one of the problems is that some drivers, and some TM’s think that you can do a 15hr shift but still legitimately have 11 hrs off. While you can physically do that, it still counts as a reduced rest. So unless split rests are being utilised, you can’t legally do 15hrs every day.

what qualifications do you need to be a compliance manager?
it sounds like a peace of ■■■■ job.
any idiot could do it. so count me in. :smiley:

the compliance manager is just an ex driver 2 transport managers are ex drivers thats shows how easy it is, ONE LAST QUESTION LADS IF I USE MY BREAKS EACH DAY AND WHILE WAITING FOR LOADING AND TIPPING I COULD USE POA SAY IF I GET 1 HR POA A DAY THAT WOULD REDUCE MY WTD HOURS IS THAT OK

gothika:
the compliance manager is just an ex driver 2 transport managers are ex drivers thats shows how easy it is, ONE LAST QUESTION LADS IF I USE MY BREAKS EACH DAY AND WHILE WAITING FOR LOADING AND TIPPING I COULD USE POA SAY IF I GET 1 HR POA A DAY THAT WOULD REDUCE MY WTD HOURS IS THAT OK

You say “if you use your breaks each day”. Well there’s no such thing as too much breaks (despite what some “experts” will tell you).

You are correct in that any POA you use will reduce your working hours, but so will any breaks you use. Don’t forget, your breaks don’t need to be a 15/30/45 to count towards this, even one minute on break equals one minute off your working time.

the maoster:

gothika:
the compliance manager is just an ex driver 2 transport managers are ex drivers thats shows how easy it is, ONE LAST QUESTION LADS IF I USE MY BREAKS EACH DAY AND WHILE WAITING FOR LOADING AND TIPPING I COULD USE POA SAY IF I GET 1 HR POA A DAY THAT WOULD REDUCE MY WTD HOURS IS THAT OK

You say “if you use your breaks each day”. Well there’s no such thing as too much breaks (despite what some “experts” will tell you).

You are correct in that any POA you use will reduce your working hours, but so will any breaks you use. Don’t forget, your breaks don’t need to be a 15/30/45 to count towards this, even one minute on break equals one minute off your working time.

WARNING WARNING common sense post above

Winseer:
Or is it just a case of drivers failing to stand up for themselves out of “fear of upsetting the boss, and losing their job in these 'ard times”? :smiling_imp:

many yellow bellies at ESL Trafford Park too! :grimacing: ALL UNIONISED, don’t use the union ONCE SHAFTED! :unamused: how BIZARRE! :grimacing:

Fatboy slimslow:

Winseer:
Or is it just a case of drivers failing to stand up for themselves out of “fear of upsetting the boss, and losing their job in these 'ard times”? :smiling_imp:

many yellow bellies at ESL Trafford Park too! :grimacing: ALL UNIONISED, don’t use the union ONCE SHAFTED! :unamused: how BIZARRE! :grimacing:

Your posts genuinely raise a smile on my face Fatboy, they actually leave me a bit out of breath! :smiley: Are you the ex stick man? If so, I reckon you must’ve been Light Infantry, they march at the speed of light so it’d make sense to post in such a manner too. :smiley:

gothika:
the compliance manager is just an ex driver 2 transport managers are ex drivers thats shows how easy it is, ONE LAST QUESTION LADS IF I USE MY BREAKS EACH DAY AND WHILE WAITING FOR LOADING AND TIPPING I COULD USE POA SAY IF I GET 1 HR POA A DAY THAT WOULD REDUCE MY WTD HOURS IS THAT OK

As you’re on salary it would probably be better to use break rather than POA if you use a digital tachograph, if you use an analogue tachograph it won’t make any difference.

To answer your question, recording as much break or POA as you legally can will help to keep your working time average down.

Please don’t post with the Caps lock on, it makes the post hard to read as well as being regarded as rude :wink:

tachograph:

gothika:
the compliance manager is just an ex driver 2 transport managers are ex drivers thats shows how easy it is, ONE LAST QUESTION LADS IF I USE MY BREAKS EACH DAY AND WHILE WAITING FOR LOADING AND TIPPING I COULD USE POA SAY IF I GET 1 HR POA A DAY THAT WOULD REDUCE MY WTD HOURS IS THAT OK

As you’re on salary it would probably be better to use break rather than POA if you use a digital tachograph, if you use an analogue tachograph it won’t make any difference.

To answer your question, recording as much break or POA as you legally can will help to keep your working time average down.

Please don’t post with the Caps lock on, it makes the post hard to read as well as being regarded as rude :wink:

hi taco yes im on digital card not analogue, so say if i have 20 mins break then later 10 mins = 30 mins this will reduce working time why can i not do same with poa. if im waiting to be loaded or tipped , why is break better. the break times i,ve just said are after my 30 min for wtd 6 hrs and after another 30 mins for driving time reset to 4.30 sorry about capitals.

gothika:

tachograph:

gothika:
the compliance manager is just an ex driver 2 transport managers are ex drivers thats shows how easy it is, ONE LAST QUESTION LADS IF I USE MY BREAKS EACH DAY AND WHILE WAITING FOR LOADING AND TIPPING I COULD USE POA SAY IF I GET 1 HR POA A DAY THAT WOULD REDUCE MY WTD HOURS IS THAT OK

As you’re on salary it would probably be better to use break rather than POA if you use a digital tachograph, if you use an analogue tachograph it won’t make any difference.

To answer your question, recording as much break or POA as you legally can will help to keep your working time average down.

Please don’t post with the Caps lock on, it makes the post hard to read as well as being regarded as rude :wink:

hi taco yes im on digital card not analogue, so say if i have 20 mins break then later 10 mins = 30 mins this will reduce working time why can i not do same with poa. if im waiting to be loaded or tipped , why is break better. the break times i,ve just said are after my 30 min for wtd 6 hrs and after another 30 mins for driving time reset to 4.30 sorry about capitals.

One of the problems with using POA with a digi tacho is that if you have more than 45 mins of POA it will " clear" your driving time. I haven’t made that very clear I’m afraid and I’m sure someone else can explain it better, but basically say you’ve driven for three hours and then had 50 mins of POA, if you then check your driving time the tacho head will tell you that you’ve done no driving, and so are free to crack on for another 4 and a half hours.

Obviously that aint true, but I imagine a few folk who use POA have been caught out like that. I’ve never put it on POA. Mind you, I’m old enough to remember when the POA symbol meant other work, and the cross hammers were for your inevitable (in them days) breakdown.