Question for NEIL

[rob_k]

Neil, remember years ago when we had an argument about driving hours, specifically the 3x 15s and 3x 9s in a row? You showed me the errors of my ways and why it couldn’t be done. A mate of mine has just been on the bone asking me the same question, but try as I might, I can’t remember for the life of me what the problem with it was. I seem to recall it was something to do with accumulated time off in a 24hr period but I’ve got a pen and paper here and written down Mon 0600-2100, Tue 0600-2100, Wed 0600-2100 and am not seeing any problems . If he starts on Thu at 0600 (3rd 9 off) then because he’s used all his 15s he can only work til 1900 anyway, but this still gives him the 11 off he needs (and in the 24hr period) and can then start again at 0600 on Friday for another 13hr shift. Where is the problem with this? I just can’t see it but I remember you making it pretty clear last time that it couldn’t be done legally.

[rog]

I know the Q was for Neil but the shifts you descriibe are perfectly legal if they are between 2 weekly rest periods

3 consecutive periods of 24 hours with 9 off in each followed by 2 consecutive periods of 24 hours with 11 off in each - no probs

I seem to remember that there was a post on this where the OP asked if this was legal -
15 on - 9 off - 15 on - 9 off - 15 on - 9 off - 15 on - 11 off but it is not as the last 15 only gives 9 off in the 24 hours

[rob_k]

Thanks but the first part is what I used to do and I got crucified by Neil for it. I’m 99.9% sure he said you can’t do 3x 15s and 3x 9s in a row. Will wait for him to appear.

[coffeeholic]

Rob K:
Thanks but the first part is what I used to do and I got crucified by Neil for it. I’m 99.9% sure he said you can’t do 3x 15s and 3x 9s in a row. Will wait for him to appear.

You are imagining it Rob, we never had that argu… discussion. I am always answering questions on here from people who think you cannot do three reduced daily rest periods in a row and telling them that you can, despite their driver trainer/mate/bloke in the chip shop/VOSA telling them they cannot.

The discussion we had that I think you are referring to was about working over 13 hours on the last shift of the week when you have already used all your 9’s, this was in the days of 3 reductions per week rather than 3 times between weekly rest periods - not that it makes any difference. You thought that it was okay to go over 13 hours because you were starting a weekly rest. I finally convinced you it wasn’t because although it was the last shift before a weekly rest the 11 hour rest period required, having no 9’s left, still had to fit into the 24-hour period which began when you started your last shift of your week.

Your mate is fine in doing 3 reductions in a row.

[rob_k]

Coffeeholic:

Rob K:
Thanks but the first part is what I used to do and I got crucified by Neil for it. I’m 99.9% sure he said you can’t do 3x 15s and 3x 9s in a row. Will wait for him to appear.

You are imagining it Rob, we never had that argu… discussion. I am always answering questions on here from people who think you cannot do three reduced daily rest periods in a row and telling them that you can, despite their driver trainer/mate/bloke in the chip shop/VOSA telling them they cannot.

The discussion we had that I think you are referring to was about working over 13 hours on the last shift of the week when you have already used all your 9’s, this was in the days of 3 reductions per week rather than 3 times between weekly rest periods - not that it makes any difference. You thought that it was okay to go over 13 hours because you were starting a weekly rest. I finally convinced you it wasn’t because although it was the last shift before a weekly rest the 11 hour rest period required, having no 9’s left, still had to fit into the 24-hour period which began when you started your last shift of your week.

Your mate is fine in doing 3 reductions in a row.

OK great thanks Neil (and Rog).

Can you give me an example of what you mean with the 13s and 9s and where I was going wrong. I can’t visualise it here. I remember this discussion came because I’d been stopped at VOSAs BBQ do at Sawtry(?) and the guy had gone through my cards and not found owt wrong, but when you saw the hours I’d done on my diary posted you called BS on it as you didn’t believe that VOSA didn’t spot it (or perhaps that my claimed hours were correct). It was then that you pointed out why it was illegal but I can’t remember the specifics.

[rob_k]

It wasn’t anything to do with the weekly rest period, I can remember that. It was something to do there not being enough rest in the 24hr period midnight to midnight, but my actual time off between shifts was okay.

[coffeeholic]

Rob K:
It wasn’t anything to do with the weekly rest period, I can remember that. It was something to do there not being enough rest in the 24hr period midnight to midnight, but my actual time off between shifts was okay.

On the last shift before yoru weekly rest you worked over 13 hours, for the 4th time that week and that meant a reduced rest being taken for the 4th time. You thought it was okay because you were starting a weekly rest period but I pointed out that you still had to fit teh daily rest period into teh 24-hour period.

Say you worked 14.5 hours on that last shift, I cannot remember the exact figures, then that only left 9,5 hours rest in the 24-hour period, despite the fact you didn’t go back to work until the end of your weekly rest, which could have been 45 hours or so, and was your 4th reduced rest of that week. We are thinking about the same instance because I remember the whole VOSA thing.

[rob_k]

Coffeeholic:

Rob K:
It wasn’t anything to do with the weekly rest period, I can remember that. It was something to do there not being enough rest in the 24hr period midnight to midnight, but my actual time off between shifts was okay.

On the last shift before yoru weekly rest you worked over 13 hours, for the 4th time that week and that meant a reduced rest being taken for the 4th time. You thought it was okay because you were starting a weekly rest period but I pointed out that you still had to fit teh daily rest period into teh 24-hour period.

Say you worked 14.5 hours on that last shift, I cannot remember the exact figures, then that only left 9,5 hours rest in the 24-hour period, despite the fact you didn’t go back to work until the end of your weekly rest, which could have been 45 hours or so, and was your 4th reduced rest of that week. We are thinking about the same instance because I remember the whole VOSA thing.

To repeat myself…

It wasn’t anything to do with the weekly rest period, I can remember that. It was something to do there not being enough rest in the 24hr period midnight to midnight, but my actual time off between shifts was okay.

I am sure of this.

I can’t remember how it panned out but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t 3x 15s and 3x 9s back to back, it was something like 3x 15s but one or two of them I’d started later the next day and had, say, 10 hours off? and then later in the week I did a 9 off and that’s where the problem came in. Or something like that. It defo wasn’t anything to do with weekly rest. I wish I could find the damned thread, but thinking back I’m not sure we actually discussed it in public, it may have been via PM.

[rog]

Was it something like this Rob -

weekly rest
day 1 - 0600 to 2100 = 15 hours
10 hours off
day 2 - 0700 to 2200 = 15 hours
11 hours off
day 3 - 0900 to 2400 = 15 hours
9 hours off
day 4 - 0900 to 2200 = 13 hours
9 hours off
day 5 - 0700 to 2000 = 13 hours
weekly rest

[rob_k]

ROG:
Was it something like this Rob -

weekly rest
day 1 - 0600 to 2100 = 15 hours
10 hours off
day 2 - 0700 to 2200 = 15 hours
11 hours off
day 3 - 0900 to 2400 = 15 hours
9 hours off
day 4 - 0900 to 2200 = 13 hours
9 hours off
day 5 - 0700 to 2000 = 13 hours
weekly rest

Could have been, can’t honestly remember.

[coffeeholic]

Rob K:

Coffeeholic:

Rob K:
It wasn’t anything to do with the weekly rest period, I can remember that. It was something to do there not being enough rest in the 24hr period midnight to midnight, but my actual time off between shifts was okay.

On the last shift before yoru weekly rest you worked over 13 hours, for the 4th time that week and that meant a reduced rest being taken for the 4th time. You thought it was okay because you were starting a weekly rest period but I pointed out that you still had to fit teh daily rest period into teh 24-hour period.

Say you worked 14.5 hours on that last shift, I cannot remember the exact figures, then that only left 9,5 hours rest in the 24-hour period, despite the fact you didn’t go back to work until the end of your weekly rest, which could have been 45 hours or so, and was your 4th reduced rest of that week. We are thinking about the same instance because I remember the whole VOSA thing.

To repeat myself…

It wasn’t anything to do with the weekly rest period, I can remember that.

Sorry about the delay in getting back to this topic. I was in Germany when I last posted but am home now so we can rock on. I know, I’m not saying it was anything to do with the amount of weekly rest. It was all about insufficient daily rest.

Rob K:
It was something to do there not being enough rest in the 24hr period midnight to midnight, but my actual time off between shifts was okay.

Almost. It was about not enough rest in the 24-hour period counting from when you resumed work after the daily rest period on your last shift of the week.

On that last day you worked more than 13 hours, which obviously left less than 11 hours for daily rest as 24 - 13+ = Ë‚ 11. As you had already used all your 3 allowed reduced rest periods this meant a 4th reduction. You were under the impression this was okay as you were beginning a weekly rest so didn’t need a daily rest. This wasn’t correct as you need a daily rest on your last shift of the week just as much as on the first.

Rob K:
I am sure of this.

So am I.

Rob K:
I can’t remember how it panned out but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t 3x 15s and 3x 9s back to back, it was something like 3x 15s but one or two of them I’d started later the next day and had, say, 10 hours off? and then later in the week I did a 9 off and that’s where the problem came in.

That was it exactly.

Rob K:
I wish I could find the damned thread, but thinking back I’m not sure we actually discussed it in public, it may have been via PM.

It think it was on the old boards so won’t show up in a search. I’m pretty sure you were driving a white DAF, SC or SSC, and at some point in that diary you loaded on the south coast somewhere, where you had a cracking ■■■■■■■■■■■■ sorted for your self near the sea front, or maybe even on it. I think we initially discussed it on the thread but it may well have ended up via PM.

Regardless your situation wasn’t about the number of back to back reduced rest periods it was about too many. Three back to back reduced daily rest periods is fine.

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
Was it something like this Rob -

weekly rest
day 1 - 0600 to 2100 = 15 hours
10 hours off
day 2 - 0700 to 2200 = 15 hours
11 hours off
day 3 - 0900 to 2400 = 15 hours
9 hours off
day 4 - 0900 to 2200 = 13 hours
9 hours off
day 5 - 0700 to 2000 = 13 hours
weekly rest

It would have been something almost like that but day 5 would have been 13+ hours. meaning a 4th reduction in the week and not allowed, this was before April 2007.

[rob_k]

Yah, it must’ve been something like that but I honestly can’t remember the details now. It just seems strange that I would have made such a ‘school boy’ error in thinking that a 14hr day would not come under the ‘extended’ hours rules thingy (whereas 13 would be okay, if you get me). I always considered myself to be well clued up on the hours that’s why I ■■■■■■ when you said I was wrong because, as you know, that just never happens normally .

Anyway I passed the message on that it’s fine to do 3 and 3 in a row acc to the rulez so job done ta.