Slight change in subject matter.What was the loads in the Italian tunnel fire.Was it flour that ignited and other materials that combined to make the inferno.?
toby1234abc:
Slight change in subject matter.What was the loads in the Italian tunnel fire.Was it flour that ignited and other materials that combined to make the inferno.?
Are you on about the Mont Blanc Tunnel Fire?
That is the tunnel.The fire engines are joined together.
So the cabs are facing backwards and forwards.
Simon:
toby1234abc:
Slight change in subject matter.What was the loads in the Italian tunnel fire.Was it flour that ignited and other materials that combined to make the inferno.?Are you on about the Mont Blanc Tunnel Fire?
Mont Blanc Tunnel - Wikipedia
IIRC, it was the driver who tossed a cigarette end out of his window, it got caught by the air intake and set the air filter ablaze, and it quickly spread
Sorry, maybe I didn’t make myself clear. If a blazing truck was near the end of the ship near the doors at the end of the deck, couldn’t it then be shoved off in a crisis?
I know on aircraft carriers (different ship I know), previously, burning aircraft have been pushed off the deck over the side when they are blocking the landing area.
toby1234abc:
Adr loads on ferry crossing are placed on top decks of ships or at the rear or front of the vessel to be close to fire hydrants.
Is it a drivers myth that if an incident occurs with an Adr load at sea ,can the Captain push the trailer off the ship if he thinks the leakage or fire will endanger his ship/crew and passengers.
Basicly by letting off the handbrake or driving it off with the driver obviously not in the cab?
Toby,
The part of your question about pushing a vehicle off a ferry is not really a question for me cos it’s not something that I would deal with.
However, it’s not true that “Adr loads on ferry crossing are placed on top decks of ships or at the rear or front of the vessel to be close to fire hydrants.”
IMDG allows some dangerous goods loads to be carried under deck, or in an enclosed hold.
Dieseldoforme has answered your question better than I could have by explaining SOLAS, but the other Regs that may have to be taken into account when jettisoning something into the sea is MARPOL. I’ve no idea about the details in either of them or how those two Regs interrelate, but there’s a whole lot more to maritime law than just what’s written in IMDG.
robinhood_1984:
bazza123:
Could another truck not be used to “shove” another truck over the edge? Obviously the brown stuff would need to be hitting the fan for this to happen, but if its this or the ship sinking…The only problem’s I could see is releasing the handbrake and the whole lot rolling inside the ship
Or the ship collides with the half submerged truck as it lands in the sea.
No. There would be no room on deck to manouver a truck and there isn’t just an open edge on the side of the ship, there would be steel bulwarks 2 or 3 ft high. Even if you could ram it with something else, which you couldn’t, it’d just hit the bulwark and stop.
Below is a picture of my old truck on the Immingham to Cuxhaven freighter, these type of ships have no cargo handling gear/cranes so there would be no possible way to actually hoist the truck up and over the side.
It would probably depend on all the circumstances.It might work assuming that they limit the wagons carrying nasties which are hazardous or flammable to accompanied only and only enough to be parked on the top deck at the back with a wagon/s in front of it/them.The only thing stopping the whole outfit from being pushed overboard would be the light gates at each end of the deck assuming that a crew member could let the brakes off which I’d be willing to bet on assuming we could get an answer to those conditions described above.As for being able to put out a large fire when it’s got hold or deal with a major chemical incident involving an artic load on board a ferry at sea I’d doubt it.
Tourists are unaware of what lurks beneath them.Thanks for the replies.When it kicks off i will be jumping in the sea.The stickers they put on the trailers to indicate what the load is are designed to stay on under water for a certain amount of time.
When the Herald went over, the tv footage of the divers ,showed the Adr stickers.
Raymundo would know Maritime law.
There was a case when a Romanian driver was refused to get on a ferry.He had Adr.He tried another port and did not declare Adr when booking in.Labels taken off.No orange plate.
The other ports were informed.He was fined about £10,000 and his firm £20,000.
Endangering a ship.
The Captain would have no idea what his load was in an incident at sea.
Some crossings do not allow certain classes of Adr.Many times i was told to go to another port or ferry firm that would accept.
Some do.not accept live stock.
toby1234abc:
Tourists are unaware of what lurks beneath them.Thanks for the replies.When it kicks off i will be jumping in the sea.The stickers they put on the trailers to indicate what the load is are designed to stay on under water for a certain amount of time.
When the Herald went over, the tv footage of the divers ,showed the Adr stickers.
Raymundo would know Maritime law.
Toby,
IMDG 5.3.1.1.1.2
The method of placarding and marking … on cargo transport units shall be such that this information will still be identifiable on cargo transport units surviving at least 3 months’ immersion in the sea.
toby1234abc:
There was a case when a Romanian driver was refused to get on a ferry.He had Adr.He tried another port and did not declare Adr when booking in.Labels taken off.No orange plate.
The other ports were informed.He was fined about £10,000 and his firm £20,000.
Endangering a ship.
If you mean the case I think you mean, the driver was Polish.
Defendant: Mr Janusz Gauden at Folkestone Magistrates’ Court
Date of Hearing: 27 January 2009
Date of Offence: 20 November 2008
Offence: Contravening the Merchant Shipping (Dangerous Goods & Marine Pollutants) Regulations 1997
Details: On Thursday 20th November 2008, at Dunkirk, Janusz Gauden, a 56 year old Polish lorry driver arrived and attempted to board a British ferry bound for Dover. He declared that he had 383Kg of Dangerous Goods (Methyl Methacrylate Monomer Stabilized) on his load but the ferry operator identified that the driver did not have the correct documentation and refused permission to board.
Mr. Gauden then went to Calais where he managed to board a Sea France Ferry carrying 228 persons without declaring the goods. The Dunkirk ferry operator had sent an alert to Sea France to be on the look out for the driver but this information arrived after the vessel sailed with the undeclared dangerous goods on board.
The ferry operators informed the Maritime & Coastguard Agency enforcement unit who immediately alerted the police at Dover Port.
Penalty: Mr Gauden was fined £2000 and ordered to pay .£3757.98 costs.
toby1234abc:
Tourists are unaware of what lurks beneath them.Thanks for the replies.When it kicks off i will be jumping in the sea.The stickers they put on the trailers to indicate what the load is are designed to stay on under water for a certain amount of time.
When the Herald went over, the tv footage of the divers ,showed the Adr stickers.
Raymundo would know Maritime law.
There was a case when a Romanian driver was refused to get on a ferry.He had Adr.He tried another port and did not declare Adr when booking in.Labels taken off.No orange plate.
The other ports were informed.He was fined about £10,000 and his firm £20,000.
Endangering a ship.
The Captain would have no idea what his load was in an incident at sea.
Some crossings do not allow certain classes of Adr.Many times i was told to go to another port or ferry firm that would accept.
Some do.not accept live stock.
Personally I’ve always felt a lot safer on a ship knowing that at least there’s a reasonable chance than on an aircraft or in tunnels.The comparable situation of an onboard fire in flight on an aircraft that can’t be controlled doesn’t bear thinking about.IE no way out no where to run just sit there and wait for the inevitable and hope that the pilot can dive the thing into the ground or sea to make the end as quick as possible. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111
Dieseldoforme:
Grzeslav379:
Hello everyone…
I just wanted to ask about one thing I noticed in almost every truck I saw in the UK… I know, it’s not about the ADR, but maybe here someone will be able to explain it to me… So, I was in UK three times (I live in PL), and on the parking lots, on the motorways and on the magazines sites I noticed that almost every British lorry has got a third axis… What is it for? Almost every trailer is the same construction as it is in the Europe, so I don’t see a reason why in the trucks are those additional axis for… Is it because of heavier loads?Thanks for answers
A three axle truck + a three axle trailer can be 44 Tonnes.
A two axle truck + a two axle trailer can be 38 Tonnes.
Different rules apply for Draw Bars / Wagon and Drag.
2 plus 2 @38 tonne ,I don’t think you will see many as the road tax was something like £5000.00 !!!
The trailer and those in the way would be pull over board using the Capstan(s). The cost of damage to the boat etc. would go to the owner of the trailer.
zaax:
The trailer and those in the way would be pull over board using the Capstan(s). The cost of damage to the boat etc. would go to the owner of the trailer.
That would have to be quite an amazing capstan. To be able to pull a trailer through those 1 to 2m high bulwarks.
Drag several fully freighted trailers right up against the bulwarks, no problem. But I can’t see how they would get the leverage to drag a trailer through it.
Insurance would pay for damage to the boat etc, that’s what it’s for.
I do quite a lot of ADR work, into and out of Europe.
There are a lot of rules about what can be carried on which type of ship and where it can be positioned on a particular type of ship.
For example, on P&Os Pride of Hull or Rotterdam, only limited quantities of some cargoes can be carried underneath the passenger accommodation. Anything over that quantity has to be carried on the open area of deck 5. Only limited quantities of certain cargoes can be carried on the open area of deck 5. If you are carrying over this quantity, you cannot travel on these types of ship. These limited quantities have nothing what-so-ever to do with what ADR classifies as Limited Quantities.
The next type of ship is a freight carrying ship, rather than a mixed freight and passenger ship, for example Stena Lines Transporter and Transit. These can carry about 150 trucks and have about 120 double cabins.
Again, only certain limited quantities of certain cargoes can be carried underneath the passenger accommodation. Some can be carried on a covered deck but not under the accommodation, some have to go on the open deck. Some cargoes are considered too dangerous to even be carried on freighters like these.
The next type of ship is a freighter which only carries a few passengers/drivers, usually a maximum of 12.
Cobelfret from Rotterdam have ships in this category. I have used these ships several times for ADR/IMDG reasons.
My truck was loaded right at the front of the ship on the open deck. It wouldn’t be possible to jettison my truck if the worst happened and it went on fire, there wasn’t any visible lifting equipment. I did see a water monitor though. These ships are mainly loaded with dropped trailers btw, they don’t go with just 12 trucks on 
Simon:
That would have to be quite an amazing capstan. To be able to pull a trailer through those 1 to 2m high bulwarks.
Drag several fully freighted trailers right up against the bulwarks, no problem. But I can’t see how they would get the leverage to drag a trailer through it.
Insurance would pay for damage to the boat etc, that’s what it’s for.
I worked at sea for 3 years and I’m now amazed to learn afterwards that some ships have magic capstans and those that don’t have them will have the assistance of other ships with imaginary cranes that can be on the scene within minutes of a fire starting so that another ship can risk itself in hoisting a trailer from its imaginary cranes in to the sea.
Simon:
The next type of ship is a freighter which only carries a few passengers/drivers, usually a maximum of 12.
Cobelfret from Rotterdam have ships in this category. I have used these ships several times for ADR/IMDG reasons.
My truck was loaded right at the front of the ship on the open deck. It wouldn’t be possible to jettison my truck if the worst happened and it went on fire, there wasn’t any visible lifting equipment. I did see a water monitor though. These ships are mainly loaded with dropped trailers btw, they don’t go with just 12 trucks on
This is the absolute reality of the situation. Glad somebody else has actually been on a ship and recognises what they see. All this “pushing it over the side” nonsense despite it being 100% physically impossible due to lack of handling equipment and the presence of bulwarks and other superstructural obstacles makes most posts on here comparable with the general public’s favourite line of “freight should go by rail”. In theory to the person who knows nothing about transport it sounds great, in reality its impossible and absurd.
Right but what about being ejected through the doors at the bow or stern? Obviously the ship would need to be at a standstill for this.
I agree you could not get a truck over the side.
bazza123:
Right but what about being ejected through the doors at the bow or stern? Obviously the ship would need to be at a standstill for this.I agree you could not get a truck over the side.
Firstly you’d need to seperate the different types of ships.In this case the only slightest possible practical possibility would be in the case of the thing being coupled up to a unit and sitting out on the end of the type of open deck with just gates and with some way of being able to push it over the end of the deck.Don’t forget that when the axles at either end have gone over the edge it’s going to foul up on the edge of the deck.Considering the speed which at least a serious fire would take hold the Captain would probably be more interested in evacuating the ship as soon as he knows wether the problem is manageable by the crew or not which would probably be extremely difficult.
bazza123:
Right but what about being ejected through the doors at the bow or stern? Obviously the ship would need to be at a standstill for this.I agree you could not get a truck over the side.
Possible in theory, if it’s at the door. There is nothing on the vehicle decks to eject it with though.
Steel decks, brakes on, loaded. The truck in front wouldn’t get enough traction to push it off.
There’s a very slim chance I’m getting into my cab to drive it off, if it’s even drivable.
(Plastic air pipes don’t forget, which melt, so brakes locked on)
On board fire fighting equipment is the only realistic possibility, there’s plenty of water available after all.
Only low risk commodities are allowed on ships with passengers and they are loaded depending on the level of risk.
As we know from earlier posts, not every hazardous load is declared. Those are loaded as none hazardous, with no regard to the unknown about risk factor. They are likely to be right in the most inaccessible position, Murphys Law being what it is. It is possible that you’d have to take to the life boats.
P.S. The load which made such a mess of the Mont Blanc Tunnel was margarine, which is none hazardous.
I am not sure if bulk flour tankers are hazourdous.Ignition and exploding dust.?