Pretty Urgent advice required regarding O license issue

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OWNER AND FLEET OPERATORS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Hi all,

Looking for some advice regarding my O licenses as had a nightmare letter this morning, looking for someone who is as knowledgeable on the subject as possible as I have recieved conflicting advice and want to make the best decision whilst ensuring everything is legal and above board.

Received a letter stating that as payment for my O license renewal had not been made by the first week of July, my O license had been surrendered with no continuation sought. This came to me as a massive surprise as my OP license states that it was valid from the beginning of august 2014, my sense told me that I had until July 2019 to pay the renewal fee and would receive paperwork to do this in due course. The letter I recieved today outlined that a ‘checklist’ had been sent to myself, but this is something I did not receive as anything stamped with ‘Office of the Traffic Commissioner’ would receive immediate attention. Upon talking with a caseworker over in Harehills house, it is clear that the ‘checklist’ or ‘reminder’ is sent out of ‘goodwill’ and so whether I recieved the letter or not, did not matter and that the renewal was my responsibility. As draconic as the process seems of just cancelling OP licenses with no notice, I did some reading online and yes fine it clearly states that on various sites renewal is my responsibility despite no clear indication of expiration dates on O licenses and so I hold my hands up and say I must have dropped the ball and the responsibility is all my own. Has been a very busy month chasing customers for large invoices, a recent loss of a very close family member and as many of you know, running a haulage operation is not something that is easy or passive and so with a few O licenses to my name I believed I had until the end of July 2019 to pay the renewal with a notice posted when I was needing to, clearly not.

Now this is where I need the advice. I have been told that it is very unlikely the TC will reinstate the licenses even if I apply for an appeal and so I need to reapply for a new one before re-operating vehicles. I have began this process by placing an advertisement and began my online application today. I will be applying for interim authority and believe it is still a 3-4 week period until interim licenses are granted, and with the newspaper advertisement not being printed until next week’s paper this puts me at 4-5 weeks until an interim authority may be accepted and almost 9 weeks until licenses are granted.

I understand that for some hauliers or operators, 9 weeks isn’t a massive time but for myself after covering driver wages and covering vehicle standing costs, parking up a few vehicles for 9 weeks is not something I will be able to afford, not to mention the effect it will have with my existing contracts and I so am unsure as to what to do. I am also very mindful of how this will effect my drivers as they are very good lads and I try my hardest to take care of them.

A couple of months ago, after my brother decided he wanted to get involved in haulage after working for my company, he obtained operator licenses to run his own vehicles. Within his margin he has enough O licenses for the vehicles that were on the O license of mine that has been surrendered as he has only 1 vehicle so far. I have been advised that I could legally essentially ‘give’ him my vehicles and drivers until my new o license is approved, has anyone any experience with such things?

To clarify, when I say ‘giving’, the advice I have been given outlines the following:
He will be running the vehicles under his own O license, essentially ‘renting’ them from my company for a fixed term, he will be instructing the drivers and footing the cost of any wear and fuel, he would be charged a fixed rent for the units which my accountant would invoice his company for. He would essentially be running the vehicles as if rented from a rental company and would keep profits accrued during the time period.

I would not be instructing any of the drivers nor, will I be footing the cost of any fuel/consumables during the period (I may allow use of my fuel card with a monthly invoice for fuel used by vehicles during this time, however this would depend if my brother has any fuel/lube providers organised)
I have been advised that since I would not be making a profit on the vehicles, nor would I be instructing the drivers and all the running costs of the vehicle would be forwarded on to my brother, it is all above board and legal. Are there any thoughts or advice from someone in the know on this?

A few more things which I believe to be relevant:
-Both mine and my brothers companies operate within the same traffic area and industry (bulk haulage)
-My brother would be organising some of the work for the vehicles, but due to his limited connections/customers I would be providing him with regular loads which he would undertake under my account for my customers (Essentially subbing work from myself on occasions).
-Both mine and my brothers companies are able to meet all the requirements of our OP license at any time (financial, prof. competence, good repute etc.)
-A contract will be drawn up outlining all the terms and conditions, including payment terms/costs/particular details between mine and my brothers company.

Has anybody the knowledge/experiences with such things? I want to ensure that throughout this situation I remain within the scopes of legal operation and really want to avoid having this affect my business, my drivers and my customers as much as possible, I always have operated everything above board and have never ran my company like a cowboy, even if it costs me and so this is such a silly thing to have happened.

I have currently suspended any work for the coming week for the vehicles until I figure out what to do as I don’t want to risk running vehicles without O licenses, any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Would appreciate people refrain from sarcastic comments regarding not knowing the renewal was due, compliance is usually my strong point but it has been a very rough couple of months for myself.

Thank you for reading, hope someone is able to shed some light.
Lazy

2

I see no issue with the above, just stick to what you have agreed and hire the vehicles to the other company.

3

As above, hire your vehicles and drivers to your brother, (and hire yourself to him as well as Traffic Manager if you wish), draw up the contract as you have said you will do, stating the terms of the hire including responsibility for all vehicle maintenance etc.

4

Your strategy is, as far as I understand the regulations, perfectly legal and above board.
However, you must make certain that you are not seen to play any part in the instruction of the drivers, or the allocation if the work carried out by them and the trucks which they drive.
To copper bottom the arrangement it will be better if your drivers are employed and paid by your brothers business. There should be no problem with you arranging work for your brother, but he and he alone must be the conduit which allocates the work to the drivers. Also, if a Traffic Examiner asks the drivers who they are employed by, they must be able to say honestly that it is your brother.
Good luck with it all.

5

To make it even more obvious, if I were you, I would have him put one of your vehicles on his work and have his vehicle do the work one of yours would have done.

It doesn’t seem like much but given the familial relationship, anything which can show that you are not fronting is a good thing.

6

You will probably already be on OCRS and likely to get a stop, you must ensure all the drivers know the score and it is imperative that they say it exactly as it is, write a letter to the drivers home address and put one in the vehicle and make sure what you wrote here is in those letters. Be lucky.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

7

Thank you all, firstly for taking the time to read such a long post and secondly for the responses.

From what you guys have said and the advice i’ve recieved from various transport consultants it seems that the way we are handling the situation is legal and won’t adversely affect our business (apart from financially on my part) and hopefully within a couple of months everything will be back to normal and I will have regained control of my vehicles.

Old John:
Your strategy is, as far as I understand the regulations, perfectly legal and above board.
However, you must make certain that you are not seen to play any part in the instruction of the drivers, or the allocation if the work carried out by them and the trucks which they drive.
To copper bottom the arrangement it will be better if your drivers are employed and paid by your brothers business. There should be no problem with you arranging work for your brother, but he and he alone must be the conduit which allocates the work to the drivers. Also, if a Traffic Examiner asks the drivers who they are employed by, they must be able to say honestly that it is your brother.
Good luck with it all.

Thank you for your advice, unfortunately my brother drives his own vehicle as an owner driver and is currently not withdrawing a salary from the vehicle, meaning he has no payroll system set up! Further to this, with the usual 60 day payment terms we bulkers work under, by paying the drivers out of his own bank (I usually pay weekly), there are concerns that covering the drivers wage may put him below the financial requirements of his operator licenses which is just inviting another possibility of a problem and so I will be invoicing him the cost of drivers, like we do when we provide driver services to other hauliers we work with, until the first round of payments are made for work he undertakes at which point I hope his accountant will be able to switch drivers across to his company under paye. He will be inducting the drivers this week and completing all the checks companies should be undertaking when taking on a driver. The drivers are all aware and I am lucky that I have treated the lads well and they are happy with the arrangement to be directed by my brother and work under his company until further notice. Our driver hire contract will also state that all driving hour and working time responsibilities will lie with my brother. Thank you for your well wishes

gingerfold:
As above, hire your vehicles and drivers to your brother, (and hire yourself to him as well as Traffic Manager if you wish), draw up the contract as you have said you will do, stating the terms of the hire including responsibility for all vehicle maintenance etc.

Thanks for your advice, I wouldn’t really need to be hired to him as a traffic manager as I think that would further complicate things as It would directly wouldn’t be planning any of his vehicles would just be offering any work that I might have to him which he wouldn’t have any obligation to take or not, probably via email or phone like I do with any of the other hauliers we use as subbies now and again. In terms of the maintenance, I spoke with my brother and we think it would be fair for him to cover maintenance in terms of consumables such as light bulbs, engine oil top ups etc. but with the vehicles inspection intervals being the same on his maintenance and mine, we will continue the existing maintenance schedule and will incorporate the cost of inspections into the hire agreement and will include the inspection schedule within the agreement.

Honestly, thank you all for your advice, this has been a horrible stressful situation and knowing that the solution is all legal and within my capabilities is great to know. My new application has been submitted and have just sent the signed declaration in the post this morning, interim authority requested so fingers crossed.

My advice to anyone reading this, triple check your expiry dates and have them highlighted on your calendar, and know when payment is due by. Cant repeat myself enough about how stupid I feel, never in a million years would have thought a mistake like this would be made. Praying that this all works out and this isn’t the end of my company, because it has been great so far. Alot of uncertainty and sleepless nights for the next few weeks but cant thank you guys enough for the advice