Carryfast:
switchlogic:
cav551:
So posh boys cameron and osbourne understand it so much better than any of the rest of the population? That’s the joke of the century.It may be possible that you took my post a little too seriously…
It looked like a clear enough endorsement of Cameron and Osborne over any argument put up against their bs version of so called ‘Capitalism’.
Of course it did Carryfast, of course it did pats Carryfast on head
I’ve got to say that this thread is living upto form page 4 already, well done Carryfast 
it has got at least page 10 written all over it mainly due to the fact carryfast is right everyone else is wrong unless you can pull out daily mail links to disprove any of his theories.
war1974:
Carryfast:
Firstly the idea of a trade passing from father to son applies in numerous cases including truck driving.yes passing a trade from father to son did happen - I have never seen it in trucking other than fathers often in school holidays took their sons out with them. my parents tried to get me to do anything than drive for a living, my point is not a father wanting the best for his son its the whole unionised attitude of applicant a being far better qualified than b but b will get the job because his dad granddad etc. worked there, I have seen this even in more recent times at royal mail where people have gone mad because his 20years of service didn’t get his son a job? why should it? and as for unions yes they have had some good impact but again I have witnessed strikes over things like my point prior, walking out for all sort of stupid and crazy reasons whilst at the same time thinking the general crap they produce is acceptable ( look at the mini ), its not 1970 carryfast whether you like it or not it isn’t the world has changed. do I agree with it all no I don’t this new living wage is a joke rewarding yet again unskilled labour for not bothering to do any for of training etc.
Father to son means by definition that no one actually knows how good either applicant will be at the job or whether they’ll actually even like the job because they are both starting out from the same point. 
However in the case of mining and steel making at least etc it’s a reasonable bet that passing on the trade in that way is going to produce the best result in terms of the right person with the right mindset for the job.While ironically in my own case I was actually following my paternal Grandfather’s trade as a driver not my Father’s as an engineer.So yes on balance there’s good reason to think that genetics is as good a guide as any regards someone’s suitability for a trade with my Father’s example being the exception that not only proved that rule.But also shoots down your idea that highly unionised jobs in industry were always a matter of who you know.When in general they were more a case of it taking a special mindset to work down a mine or in a factory or a steel works.With unions being born out of the opposite situation of wages that didn’t reflect the justified expectations of the workforce for the job they were doing let alone the principles of Fordist Capitalism.To which your answer is sack them all and give the jobs to the zb Chinese Communists. 
As for the Mini,like the Lada,that was more a result of the same mindset as yours based on the idea of minimising income levels.
war1974:
it has got at least page 10 written all over it mainly due to the fact carryfast is right everyone else is wrong unless you can pull out daily mail links to disprove any of his theories.
I think you could be right, maybe there should be a sweep stake on how many pages Carryfast can get this thread to 
Well I for one support the steelworkers and, to that end, I’ve told the wife not to buy any more Tetley tea bags.
war1974:
this new living wage is a joke rewarding yet again unskilled labour for not bothering to do any for of training etc.
I have always thought that the whole idea of a one size fits all NMW or the new Living wage, which is effectively a NMW by another name, to be a flawed concept. Better and more relevant would be Minimum wage rates by sector. The effect that the NMW has had, IMO is to make employers lazy, instead of working out what any roll within the business might be worth to the business, or what rate they might need to pay to attract people to their business, and then applying that rate to the job, they just pay NMW or a few pence an hour above. This has made all semi skilled and unskilled work effectively of the same value, that being NMW, so in a way why go out and improve your skills, if an Employer will only pay you circa NMW regardless. Why wish to change business sector, if all sectors are paying NMW, which again is a disincentive to personal development.
I was recently offered ADR training by My employer, I had previously held/done ADR for over 15 years, but when it lasped a few years ago I didn’t bother renewing it, because there seemed to be no reflection of that added skill to the business within My wage packet. I turned down the offer of training for the same reason
Wise words Mr snax. Wise words indeed.
Carryfast:
war1974:
Carryfast:
Firstly the idea of a trade passing from father to son applies in numerous cases including truck driving.yes passing a trade from father to son did happen - I have never seen it in trucking other than fathers often in school holidays took their sons out with them. my parents tried to get me to do anything than drive for a living, my point is not a father wanting the best for his son its the whole unionised attitude of applicant a being far better qualified than b but b will get the job because his dad granddad etc. worked there, I have seen this even in more recent times at royal mail where people have gone mad because his 20years of service didn’t get his son a job? why should it? and as for unions yes they have had some good impact but again I have witnessed strikes over things like my point prior, walking out for all sort of stupid and crazy reasons whilst at the same time thinking the general crap they produce is acceptable ( look at the mini ), its not 1970 carryfast whether you like it or not it isn’t the world has changed. do I agree with it all no I don’t this new living wage is a joke rewarding yet again unskilled labour for not bothering to do any for of training etc.
Father to son means by definition that no one actually knows how good either applicant will be at the job or whether they’ll actually even like the job because they are both starting out from the same point.
However in the case of mining and steel making at least etc it’s a reasonable bet that passing on the trade in that way is going to produce the best result in terms of the right person with the right mindset for the job.While ironically in my own case I was actually following my paternal Grandfather’s trade as a driver not my Father’s as an engineer.So yes on balance there’s good reason to think that genetics is as good a guide as any regards someone’s suitability for a trade with my Father’s example being the exception that not only proved that rule.But also shoots down your idea that highly unionised jobs in industry were always a matter of who you know.When in general they were more a case of it taking a special mindset to work down a mine or in a factory or a steel works.With unions being born out of the opposite situation of wages that didn’t reflect the justified expectations of the workforce for the job they were doing let alone the principles of Fordist Capitalism.To which your answer is sack them all and give the jobs to the zb Chinese Communists.
As for the Mini,like the Lada,that was more a result of the same mindset as yours based on the idea of minimising income levels.
you see this is where I find you very strange carryfast - I like a lot of people my age left school with nothing education wise once I matured and realised I needed some form of education if I was to get a decent job not starting at 3am and being expected to work until 6pm legally I went back to night school studied and progressed, I went when young for jobs at several of the industries mention had testing done which I passed guess who got the job - oh yeah that’s right old bob’s son. why does everything have to be met by you with a race to the lowest wage? my wage is ok a lot of others I know have decent wages the one thing they don’t have is a union rep telling them to strike or walk out or work to rule (all these terms I have witnessed), strike yes if its something major - but having seen shipbuilders walk out at the drop of the hat, dockers striking for the reasons I have mentioned. the mini was nothing to do with costs or minimising income levels it relied solely on the whole ‘lets buy british’ from the general public, once they realised they were buying a 1960’s car in the 1990’s with a few stickers on it they went elsewhere - bmw bought it and made it an instant success why because they gave the public a new mini.
the days of everyone as I have said before putting the country of origin ahead of quality have gone hence we no longer have some of the worst car makes in the world about now - or if we do its a watered down version of them. but I know its my fault for thinking this way when I could have instead of a bmw or an audi or Nissan gone out and bought a Austin metro with stickers on it for almost the same cost as a similar non british make.
eddie snax:
war1974:
this new living wage is a joke rewarding yet again unskilled labour for not bothering to do any for of training etc.I have always thought that the whole idea of a one size fits all NMW or the new Living wage, which is effectively a NMW by another name, to be a flawed concept. Better and more relevant would be Minimum wage rates by sector. The effect that the NMW has had, IMO is to make employers lazy, instead of working out what any roll within the business might be worth to the business, or what rate they might need to pay to attract people to their business, and then applying that rate to the job, they just pay NMW or a few pence an hour above. This has made all semi skilled and unskilled work effectively of the same value, that being NMW, so in a way why go out and improve your skills, if an Employer will only pay you circa NMW regardless. Why wish to change business sector, if all sectors are paying NMW, which again is a disincentive to personal development.
I was recently offered ADR training by My employer, I had previously held/done ADR for over 15 years, but when it lasped a few years ago I didn’t bother renewing it, because there seemed to be no reflection of that added skill to the business within My wage packet. I turned down the offer of training for the same reason
I agree to an extent but then do we go like some eu countries where each role has a set wage?
but at least if your on NMW your 100% going to get a pay rise each year - give it 5 and I think it will have caught up with a lot of hgv jobs and we then go back to the early 90’s hgv driver £3.50 an hour etc or its current equivalent.
war1974:
you see this is where I find you very strange carryfast - I like a lot of people my age left school with nothing education wise once I matured and realised I needed some form of education if I was to get a decent job not starting at 3am and being expected to work until 6pm legally I went back to night school studied and progressed, I went when young for jobs at several of the industries mention had testing done which I passed guess who got the job - oh yeah that’s right old bob’s son. why does everything have to be met by you with a race to the lowest wage? my wage is ok a lot of others I know have decent wages the one thing they don’t have is a union rep telling them to strike or walk out or work to rule (all these terms I have witnessed), strike yes if its something major - but having seen shipbuilders walk out at the drop of the hat, dockers striking for the reasons I have mentioned. the mini was nothing to do with costs or minimising income levels it relied solely on the whole ‘lets buy british’ from the general public, once they realised they were buying a 1960’s car in the 1990’s with a few stickers on it they went elsewhere - bmw bought it and made it an instant success why because they gave the public a new mini.the days of everyone as I have said before putting the country of origin ahead of quality have gone hence we no longer have some of the worst car makes in the world about now - or if we do its a watered down version of them. but I know its my fault for thinking this way when I could have instead of a bmw or an audi or Nissan gone out and bought a Austin metro with stickers on it for almost the same cost as a similar non british make.
You’re making no sense.Are you saying that you wanted to be a factory worker let alone steel worker but got turned down ?.Are you also saying that you know for a fact that you were turned down on the basis of who you know not what you know.Bearing in mind an industry which has been in free fall since around 1972.
While as I’ve said in my case it was the total opposite to yours.In that firstly my father went into the engineering industry from a road transport father background.While I followed him with his help into engineering against my own wishes being that I wanted to go into road transport.Out of an intake of 7 apprentices I was the only one with any family connection with the firm or any real family background in engineering and ironically the only one who hated working in a factory for obvious reasons.Then having struggled to get into the job I actually wanted as I’ve said,not surprisingly,I found that to be more a case of the best jobs for the boys and who you know than what you know.
On that note having actually worked in the manufacturing and driving sectors I’d say that you’re confusing the ‘reasons’ for any such nepotism in those respective sectors.In the case of working in a steel works for example that’s just about one of the worst possible environments in the already zb environment of working in a factory ( from a driver’s point of view ).In which a genetic link with the job might help in many/most cases.While there are obviously exceptions which prove the rule.
While the issue of trying to break into the best driving job sectors and the nepotism involved in that is obviously something else entirely for totally different reasons and which is what I found when I tried to climb the career progression ladder in driving.
On that note the bit I don’t get is how anyone who wants to be a driver could possibly covet the job of working in a factory let alone that of a steel worker 
and since when were acedemic qualifications a pre requisite for that bearing in mind that none of those who I started work with had much,if any,in the way of school qualifications with the firm itself sending us to college for the qualifications it needed us to get.
As for your obvious support of race to the bottom free markets as I said good luck with that if/when cabotage restrictions are removed.
As for cars what that engineering background did teach me was that the engineering in a 1970’s Jaguar for example was better than that in the respective BMW or Merc for almost half the cost.With Rover and Triumph offering a similar product for much less.
Although it’s not surprising that anyone who obviously knows zb all about cars would also make an argument about ‘quality’ when trying to make the case for the import of cheap Chinese steel v buying British.
my issue is nothing to do with cabotage again you have to keep it on the track you want it to be on. my point is simple if you wanted a job and someone son did you had no chance zero nil nada. the son would always get the job, you seem to think this is a good thing I think its ■■■■■■■■.
you seem to think Britain is some highly skilled industrial zone churning out the highest quality products when the harsh reality is we relied for umpteen year on the whole lets buy british.
you can spout off about anything you want look at all our once ‘great’ industries they have all bit by bit gone - why is this? because its either not competitive or of a high enough quality to be worthwhile, I used the mini as an example - it took as you say ze germans about 2 years to make it into a must have brand - why couldn’t we do that? MG the same no doubt thousands of others could be applied.
but again I expect some daily mail links a rambling about cabotage several other unrelated comments in return.
war1974:
my issue is nothing to do with cabotage again you have to keep it on the track you want it to be on. my point is simple if you wanted a job and someone son did you had no chance zero nil nada. the son would always get the job, you seem to think this is a good thing I think its [zb].you seem to think Britain is some highly skilled industrial zone churning out the highest quality products when the harsh reality is we relied for umpteen year on the whole lets buy british.
you can spout off about anything you want look at all our once ‘great’ industries they have all bit by bit gone - why is this? because its either not competitive or of a high enough quality to be worthwhile, I used the mini as an example - it took as you say ze germans about 2 years to make it into a must have brand - why couldn’t we do that? MG the same no doubt thousands of others could be applied.
but again I expect some daily mail links a rambling about cabotage several other unrelated comments in return.
So are you saying that you were turned down for the job as a steel worker in favour of someone with a family link or not ?.
You’re trying to make the case for the import of cheap Chinese steel over British on the basis of free markets.So the issue of your support or not of cabotage regarding the road transport industry is obviously a fair point connected with that.
As for a zb fwd Mini I wouldn’t be interested whether it’s the BMW version or the BMC version.
Carryfast:
war1974:
my issue is nothing to do with cabotage again you have to keep it on the track you want it to be on. my point is simple if you wanted a job and someone son did you had no chance zero nil nada. the son would always get the job, you seem to think this is a good thing I think its [zb].you seem to think Britain is some highly skilled industrial zone churning out the highest quality products when the harsh reality is we relied for umpteen year on the whole lets buy british.
you can spout off about anything you want look at all our once ‘great’ industries they have all bit by bit gone - why is this? because its either not competitive or of a high enough quality to be worthwhile, I used the mini as an example - it took as you say ze germans about 2 years to make it into a must have brand - why couldn’t we do that? MG the same no doubt thousands of others could be applied.
but again I expect some daily mail links a rambling about cabotage several other unrelated comments in return.
So are you saying that you were turned down for the job as a steel worker in favour of someone with a family link or not ?. NO NOT STEEL WORKS
You’re trying to make the case for the import of cheap Chinese steel over British on the basis of free markets.So the issue of your support or not of cabotage regarding the road transport industry is obviously a fair point connected with that. AGAIN NO MY POINT IS YOU EITHER MAKE QUALITY OR CHEAP AND SELL TO YOUR AUDIENCE
As for a zb fwd Mini I wouldn’t be interested whether it’s the BMW version or the BMC version.
IN MINI REPLACE ANY BRITISH LEYLAND CAR
war1974:
So are you saying that you were turned down for the job as a steel worker in favour of someone with a family link or not ?. NO NOT STEEL WORKSYou’re trying to make the case for the import of cheap Chinese steel over British on the basis of free markets.So the issue of your support or not of cabotage regarding the road transport industry is obviously a fair point connected with that. AGAIN NO MY POINT IS YOU EITHER MAKE QUALITY OR CHEAP AND SELL TO YOUR AUDIENCE
As for a zb fwd Mini I wouldn’t be interested whether it’s the BMW version or the BMC version.
IN MINI REPLACE ANY BRITISH LEYLAND CAR
[/quote]
Steel is supposed to be just ‘quality’ with no option of poor quality.
Yes it can be made cheaper by reducing the quality.
We can’t produce steel in a modern developed economy run on Fordist economic principles at the same price as it can be produced in a less developed economy run on Communist principles.Especially when those Communist economic principles are combined with reduced quality.
While it’s clear that your idea is to sell to an exploitative ‘audience’.That wants to create short term personal profit,by taking advantage of free markets,which allow the importation of a reduced quality product made by exploited workers in a less developed economy.The only way in which we could compete with which would be by way of a massive programme of deflation across the whole economy.Which would of course leave the banks with the even more massive problem of negative equity exposure in numerous sectors of the developed western economies owing to the ‘corrections’ in asset values etc.
Meanwhile still no answer as to whether your obvious free market principles also apply in the case of removing cabotage restrictions in the domestic road transport market.
As for any Leyland car great you’d prefer to pay almost twice as much for a 3 litre BMW than an XJ12.
I love how Carryfasts car references haven’t moved out of the late 70s early 80s.
would rather a bmw over a jag from that era any day.
switchlogic:
I love how Carryfasts car references haven’t moved out of the late 70s early 80s.
Obviously unless you can go back in time and change history to make BMC and Leyland Group survive into the 21st century. 
war1974:
would rather a bmw over a jag from that era any day.
I’ve got an early 1980’s 6 litre XJ12 wth a manual box in it which says you wouldn’t want to put an E28 or even an E34 M5,let alone a 3.0 Si,up against it for the car if you’ve got any sense.Although having said that I’ll just take the cash instead of the car.
Carryfast:
war1974:
would rather a bmw over a jag from that era any day.I’ve got an early 1980’s 6 litre XJ12 wth a manual box in it which says you wouldn’t want to put an E28 or even an E34 M5,let alone a 3.0 Si,up against it for the car if you’ve got any sense.Although having said that I’ll just take the cash instead of the car.
Someone is willy waving