I guess this is a question for Coffeeholic, who is a legend of knowledge on Driver’s Hours rules, but I welcome help and advice from anybody who really does know what they are talking about regarding drivers hours etc.
On wednesday I did an 8 hour shift driving an 18 ton rigid fitted with digital tacho. Card in at 09:00hrs.
At one of my drops, I arrived onsite after approx. 2.5 driving hours. Stopped truck (tacho to Other Work).
Spent 5 mins. speaking to whse mgr. and was told “No forkie for about 30. mins, put wagon near to whse. and we will unload you in about 30 mins.” So I drove truck to whse stopped it opened rear doors and put tacho on to POA. went to toilet and 5 minute leg stretch and went back to wagon. Sat in cab.
After about 25 mins POA, whse mgr said “at least another hour before we can uload anybody” so I put tacho on BREAK and had my butties and a bit of a kip.
After 27 mins on break, the whse mgr came and said “We are going to unload you NOW, dont need your help as its easy to see whats our stuff” so I put the tacho onto POA again sat in cab… They finished unloading after another 25 mins. told me so, and I put tacho onto Other Work, checked the drop, did paperwork, closed the doors and drove to next job. Rest of day just driving and other work, no problems.
When I got back to my depot and downloaded my card, my TM said “INFRINGEMENT on card today, not enough breaks taken”, and his computer screen said something along the same lines and my POA/Break/POA combination was highlighted in red on the screen.
Was my use of POA incorrect?
Should I have had another 30 minute BREAK later on?
Where did I go wrong?
What would you have done in this situation?
How worried should I be about VOSA proceeding against me?
hello mate,
i know how you feel cos I’ve been put in the same situation many times recently. I believe you should have taken another 30 minutes break, that would have sorted it out. if you didnt move the vehicle, you could have kept it in break.
but i would have done is taken a 30 min break .
Lets hear what the professionals say!
Don’t use POA. If you are not unloading or doing any other work stick it on break.
You can use breaks to your own advantage if you play it right. POA just confuses things and is effectively the same as break with a few provisos thrown in. If you use break instead it can stop you getting infringements and can also help you to get home on a busy day!
Thanks for the general advice guys, I’ll stick to BREAKS in the future, but I could do with some specific answers to my worries about VOSA etc.
Did I really commit an infringement as I was effectively doing nothing for more than 45 mins. (in my opinion).■■
2.5 hours driving time
27 mins break which counts as the 15 mins for a split driving time break (15+30)
30 min break required at or before the next 2 hours of driving time is reached
Had you used all that POA and break time as break (45 mins or more) whilst waiting then the driving time would have been reset to allow another 4.5 hours of driving if you had that amount still available for that shift (between daily/weekly rests)
You didn’t get an infringement for using the POA/break combination - your infringement would have been for exceeding 4.5 hours driving without a 45 minute break. Even though you were doing nothing on the periods of POA this doesn’t count towards your break time for driving. Your tacho would only show that you had 27mins break in the day even though you were parked for over an hour.
Easy solution - forget POA!
davidj247:
You didn’t get an infringement for using the POA/break combination - your infringement would have been for exceeding 4.5 hours driving without a 45 minute break. Even though you were doing nothing on the periods of POA this doesn’t count towards your break time for driving. Your tacho would only show that you had 27mins break in the day even though you were parked for over an hour.
Easy solution - forget POA!
This ^^^
POA does not count as break though it will reset the driving time shown on the tachograph so you had only 27 minutes break instead of 45 minutes.
If you’re allowed to, use break instead of poa.
LandyLad:
How worried should I be about VOSA proceeding against me?
A verbal warning could be given or a fixed penalty.
Without knowing how far over the 4.5 hours driving time you did without accumulating 45 minutes of legal break I can’t say what the fixed penalty could be but it could be between £60 and £200.
I think I begin to see, so what is the use/point of POA then?
When do you use it instead of break?
Will I get done by VOSA?
For how long will it be visible to them?
Should I pack in driving for a month or two?
What total rubbish these EU driver Rules are! How could anybody make something so simple be so childishly complicated as these ridiculously constructed regulations.
Oh, silly me, the stupid buggers who have designed them have also designed the EURO zone financial mess that is totally crippling all of our savings, pensions and job prospects.
But exactly WHO votes these EuroBeurocrats / Politicians in to power? Well its US. We dont vote them out so we effectively vote them in.
They get fat salaries for being total ■■■■ and we pay them out of our hard earned wages. Hmmm, who are the idiots after all? them or us?
Vote for me, I will remove all EU hours regs along with Euro bananas and fishing quotas. I will reduce government tax on fuel by 50% at the pump. I will remove the Congestion charge in London. I will pay for all of this by introducing a tax on grass and daytime television (e.g. Jeremy Kyle).
Sorry, got to go. There is a man with a straight jacket and a needle coming into my side ward.
Help! I am really descended from Napoleon, honest!
LandyLad
Use poa if they say how long till you will be sorted you cannot use poa if you don’t know even if they take the urine and just say two days even though you know it will be quite soon you can use poa as they have given you a time scale that you are available to work I know it’s stupid but that’s the way it works.
And as for break why did you change from it to poa after 27 mins if you wasn’t doing anything and could have had your 45 in full you should have taken it I needed a 30 min break last week for the WTD had 2 mins to go when young attitude in yard said he was going for break so I either move it out or will be locked in for 30 mins more told him not going to move until my 30 mins are up so go jog on have your meal and I will have my full 45 and the rest ha ha his face was a picture but no way was I going to waste that 28 mins I’d had on break as they would have only counted as 15 mins and would have had to have another 30 anyway so been locked in for 30 more didn’t matter to me
I think I begin to see, so what is the use/point of POA then?
No point at all - it was a compromise addition when they introduced the WTD
When do you use it instead of break?
I don’t - some drivers need to as they don’t get paid for breaks
Will I get done by VOSA?
Probably not - If you take a printout and keep it with you with an explanation on the back that you misunderstood the POA/Break situation they could be lenient.
For how long will it be visible to them?
As long as the entry stays on your card. This can be up to 12 months depending on how many events are recorded on your card. It will also be stored in the tacho unit inside the truck for up to 12 months as well
Should I pack in driving for a month or two?
No - don’t worry. We all make mistakes and as long as you are not trying to blatantly run bent or break the law you’ll be ok. Don’t forget you can always ask for advice on these forums - the drivers hours and WTD forum is always a good place to go if you’re not sure of anything.
What total rubbish these EU driver Rules are! How could anybody make something so simple be so childishly complicated as these ridiculously constructed regulations.
Oh, silly me, the stupid buggers who have designed them have also designed the EURO zone financial mess that is totally crippling all of our savings, pensions and job prospects.
But exactly WHO votes these EuroBeurocrats / Politicians in to power? Well its US. We dont vote them out so we effectively vote them in.
They get fat salaries for being total ■■■■ and we pay them out of our hard earned wages. Hmmm, who are the idiots after all? them or us?
Vote for me, I will remove all EU hours regs along with Euro bananas and fishing quotas. I will reduce government tax on fuel by 50% at the pump. I will remove the Congestion charge in London. I will pay for all of this by introducing a tax on grass and daytime television (e.g. Jeremy Kyle).
Sorry, got to go. There is a man with a straight jacket and a needle coming into my side ward.
Help! I am really descended from Napoleon, honest!
LandyLad[
LandyLad:
For how long will it be visible to them?
As long as the entry stays on your card. This can be up to 12 months depending on how many events are recorded on your card. It will also be stored in the tacho unit inside the truck for up to 12 months as well
While it will be visible for a long time Statute Barred for hours offences is 6 months, from the date of the offence, so once you are passed that you won’t get done for it.
Kirk Ella 71:
I needed a 30 min break last week for the WTD had 2 mins to go when young attitude in yard said he was going for break so I either move it out or will be locked in for 30 mins more told him not going to move until my 30 mins are up so go jog on have your meal and I will have my full 45 and the rest ha ha his face was a picture but no way was I going to waste that 28 mins I’d had on break as they would have only counted as 15 mins and would have had to have another 30 anyway so been locked in for 30 more didn’t matter to me
You said this was a WTD break, 15 minutes would have been fine for that. The only time you need a 30 minute WTD break is if it is almost the end of your shift, you have more than 9 hours work in your shift and you had only taken 15 minutes earlier in the shift.
LandyLad:
Should I have had another 30 minute BREAK later on?
Yes
LandyLad:
Where did I go wrong?
You only had 27 minutes break. Assuming you did more than 4.5 hours total driving in the shift you are 18 minutes short of a break for the tacho rules and 3 minutes short for the WTD.
LandyLad:
What would you have done in this situation?
Used break for all that sitting about time, up until 4 months ago I had never booked POA. My work now means I have no choice but to book it but the flip side is I haven’t booked as much as a minutes break for 4 months now.
LandyLad:
How worried should I be about VOSA proceeding against me?
Don’t worry too much. If, and it’s a big if, they find the offence in the next 6 months then you might get done, or you might get a lecture and a warning. After 6 months from the date of the offence you can stop worrying.
Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this question.
For some strange reason, I did actually take a print of my tacho at the end of this particular shift and I actually did a total of 4hrs 31 minutes driving on the shift, split at about 2.5 hrs. before poa with the rest after the poa. The exact poa/break times were
18 minutes POA immediately followed by 27 minutes Break immediately followed by 21 minutes POA.
At the time I actually believed that I was recording the truth, i.e. I was originally told cant unload for an hour - so POA, then I wanted my dinner - so BREAK whilst I eat it and had a kip, then being unloaded so POA.
When I drove away after the Other Work following the second POA, my driving time clock was reading ZERO and I assumed that this meant that the POA/Break/POA combination was regarded as a 45 minute break.
I will NEVER use POA again unless the company policy mandates me to, e.g. not paid during breaks. But then I could just use the default setting of Other Work.
LandyLad:
When I drove away after the Other Work following the second POA, my driving time clock was reading ZERO and I assumed that this meant that the POA/Break/POA combination was regarded as a 45 minute break.
The digi tacho incorrectly counts POA as break and resets the driving timer, another good reason not to use POA.
One minute over you driving time isn’t going to get you into trouble, provided you don’t make a habit of it, so I wouldn’t worry.
Thanks Coffe-H,
but I am a little worried about it because on my very first ever professional commercial drive, (3 months ago) I went to 4 hrs. 31 minutes before I got parked and put my tacho onto BREAK (it was a 45). The TM shouted at me when I got back, but I had only done what the full time driver (acting as mate) told me to do. It just goes to show that even other drivers who are supposed to be looking after you even on your 1st day out couldnt care less about your licence - he only cared about getting his cup of tea in a nice quiet place!
I had to take a second break at Lymm truckstop as well! This clocked up an Infringement.
Last Friday I had to take a second break with exactly 4hrs. 30 mins on the clock (couldnt get off the M62 near Leeds until Wakefield turnoff). When I finally got back to my depot at 10 pm, I had 3 minutes left before my 10th driving hour of the day expired. I would have parked up at 1 minute to go if necessary as I got my drivers mate to phone the TM on the way and he agreed to come and get the wagon wherever and when my 10th hour was due to expire. No infringement clocked on this episode, but it was only 2 days after my POA/Break/POA fiasco.
So it could look like I am deliberately pushing my driving times to the limit and falling foul of the rules too often.
Thanks for your help and advice anyway, ther’s only one way to learn and I suppose I’m going through the process.
LandyLad:
Thanks Coffe-H,
but I am a little worried about it because on my very first ever professional commercial drive, (3 months ago) I went to 4 hrs. 31 minutes before I got parked and put my tacho onto BREAK (it was a 45).
So it could look like I am deliberately pushing my driving times to the limit and falling foul of the rules too often.
You’ve gone over by a minute twice in 3 months and one of them was just using POA instead of break. Doubtful that will even make VOSA’s radar twitch.
Coffeholic - thanks for your help on this.
I guess I am just too nervous as I come from a strict background of behaving exactly to stated rules.
In my previous job I was a mixture of company accountant and computer programmer. In those jobs there are no shades of grey (gray?) just black or white, meeting a criteria exactly or not meeting it! ■■■■ office job mentality - hard to get rid of.
I will calm down now and just use my common sense.
Can VOSA fine me for not using POA at all? Just brakes only? Or I should use at least some POA during my work? Telling you guys I’ve been working as driver for some time and still getting confused…
