Plating for Trailers

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Hello all.

I have an old Foden that is registered privately as a classic vehicle. Its plate shows that its MGW is 24000kg. On the plate there is a section for “Train Weight” but there is no weight displayed.

I have a large showman’s caravan that does not require a plate or MOT, but is on air brakes, is 30ft long plus draw-bar and weighs approximately 5 tons. My question is; do i need to do anything to the plating of the lorry to be able to legally tow this living van?

If anyone has any ideas that would be great. I have contacted VOSA but am still waitning on a reply.

2

Not really relevant but does the plate have the axle weights on it so just the GTW is missing?

3

It has the axle weights for the lorry but the only column for the trailer is GTW. I should probably mention that it is its original 1968 plate so they may well have changed a bit since then!

4

j_turner023:
It has the axle weights for the lorry but the only column for the trailer is GTW.

… that GTW is missing?

5

ROG:

j_turner023:
It has the axle weights for the lorry but the only column for the trailer is GTW.

… that GTW is missing?

Sorry, yes, the GTW column is just blank. No numbers, no line through it, nothing. Jon

6

On modern plates they are listed vertically like this -
GVW
GTW
Axle 1
Axle 2
Axle 3

The axles being listed from front to rear

7

Ah ok. It is similar then.

Mine is:
Axle Weight
Axle 1:(Cant remember off hand)
Axle 2:(Cant remember off hand)
Axle 3:(Cant remember off hand)
Axle 4:(Cant remember off hand)

Gross Weight: 24385

Train Weight:

8

j_turner023:
Ah ok. It is similar then.

Mine is:
Axle Weight
Axle 1:(Cant remember off hand)
Axle 2:(Cant remember off hand)
Axle 3:(Cant remember off hand)
Axle 4:(Cant remember off hand)

Gross Weight: 24385

Train Weight:

That is ‘odd’ to say the least - I hope either VOSA or the DVLA (who should have the records for that vehicle) can shed some light on it

9

found this

Unladed weight

The unladed weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.

It doesn’t include the weight of the fuel or, if it’s an electric vehicle, the batteries.

Maximum authorised mass

Maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight.

It will be listed in the owner’s manual and is normally shown on a plate or sticker fitted to the vehicle.

The plate or sticker may also show a gross train weight (GTW), also sometimes called gross combination weight (GCW). This is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load.

Down-plating

If a vehicle is unlikely to be used at its potential maximum weight, it may be ‘down-plated’. This means that a lower weight is shown on the plate or sticker attached to the vehicle.

10

delboytwo:
found this

Unladed weight

The plate or sticker may also show a gross train weight (GTW), also sometimes called gross combination weight (GCW). This is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load.
.

I wonder if the Train weight just applied to units then. However i would still have thought there should be something on the plate that would show what the MGW of trailer it could pull would be. Unless it can pull any weight of trailer as long as the MAM doesnt exceed 24000kg?

11

GVW does not refer to a combination weight - GVW refers to the maximum vehicle weight only

It would be unusual if a rigid vehicle has not been designed to tow a trailer (drag) - I have never come across one … yet!!

I would ask DVLA if they have any records for this vehicle

12

ROG:
I would ask DVLA if they have any records for this vehicle

Yea done that yesterday. Apparently they can take up to 3 days to respond, so when I hear from them I’ll post it on here.

13

One more thought… and a bit of a long shot… :unamused:

Do you know of any company that is still trading which owned this vehicle in the past :question:
If yes, then it might be worth giving them a call to see if they have any info :bulb:

14

ROG:
One more thought… and a bit of a long shot… :unamused:

Do you know of any company that is still trading which owned this vehicle in the past :question:
If yes, then it might be worth giving them a call to see if they have any info :bulb:

Unfortunately the company (Horrace Kendricks of Walsall) shut down in the late 70’s. So that ones out of the windown. :frowning:

15

Some things seems strange: You say the GVW is listed as 24000kg and it is a 1968 plate. So at a guess this is an eight wheel rigid, since the maximum for a six wheeler was 22 tons at that time. If the vehicle is a tractor unit , or rather was in 1968, then there ought to be a GCW or GTW figure entered, since it would not have been entitled to impose 24 tons through its own axles.

However in 1968 the plate would surely have been in imperial units ie 24 tons. The metric equivalent appearing on later plates reads 24390 kg.

Could the vehicle have passed through the ownership of showmen when all sorts of alterations may have taken place without needing to notify VOSA?

If the vehicle was a rigid in 1968 and had been originally supplied without the necessary equipment to tow a trailer, then the information supplied by Foden to ‘the Ministry’ at the time may well not have included any details relating to its train weight capability.

Finally one further possibility comes to mind. When Plating and Testing was introduced for HGV in 1968, the Plated weight issued related to among other things, the braking capability of the vehicle. It may be a case that any GCW allowance was withdrawn at that time. Many vehicles were issued with Plates for a lower weight than that which they had been in use before 1968.

You don’t mention the age of the vehicle, but regardless of whether it is pre 1960 or not, and hence MOT exempt, you ought really to be thinking about having a roller brake test done to make sure it is capable of stopping whatever weight you wish to run at.

16

Thanks. Maybe i need to clarify a bit.

The lorry is a 1964 rigid 8 wheel tipper. We know the full history of the lorry and it as been in this form from new - so no showmans life etc. The plate says 24tons in the first column, and 24390kg in the second column.

Regarding the equipment to pull a trailer it is a little odd, as it has a tow hook and electrics but no air supply at the back. Having said this it has had later axles (with spring brakes) fitted, so maybe the pipes were removed at this time?

In terms of MOT we have it done every year, so we know the brakes are ok. To be honnest, even if it was MOT exempt i would still like to know the brakes worked well!

Jon

17

j_turner023:
The plate says 24tons in the first column, and 24390kg in the second column.

GVW 24000 and design weight 24390

18

Becoming more interesting since you say that there are spring brakes on the rear axles. If memory serves me right, I think I can recall taking an eight wheel S83? for test in about 1982 which had a transmission handbrake and also working on S80s with them. This stands out because of the palather involved brake testing the parking brake.

I suppose the simple question is to ask if these are Foden Worm Drive axles with cam operated brake shoes, with or without transmission brake on the diff casing, or if they are normal looking later Rockwell axles with the twin small brake chambers poking out of the brake backplates? This would give some idea of when the axles were replaced.

A quick warning for anyone else later on reading this thread: Never jack up a rear wheel or axle on transmission braked vehicle without chocking other wheels securely. It will roll.

Spring brakes were around before 1968, but I don’t think they were a normal Foden fitment in 1968.

Having said all this, if the vehicle was built as a tipper chassis then this probably explains the lack of a GTW on the plate, since drawbar tipper combinations are an extremely rare sight in the UK. As a tipper chassis Foden would not have listed a GTW unless spec’d by the initial customer order. The coupling and electrics are quite possibly for one of those four wheel, hydraulically operated, drop-deck low loading trailers that used to be so popular up until the mid 1990s. These had hydraulic brakes activated by a master cylinder connected to the drawbar coupling, so did not need any braking connections from the towing vehicle. This set up was certainly very popular with road-gang tipper operators.

I think that you are really stuck with VOSA’s opinion in the end regarding whether you can ‘operate’ at a combination weight below the vehicle’s individual plated GVW. You definitely need their opinion before you start spending money.

I know that we see showmen’s vehicle doing exactly what you want to do, but then they are exempt from just about everything if there is a generator on the towing vehicle.

It may well be worth your while contacting the Federation of Historic Vehicle Clubs.

Whatever the outcome, since your trailer will exceed 3.5t, you are going to have to provide power braking for it from the lorry. This will be a ‘notifiable alteration’ which will involve considerable work. There are several issues that need to be taken into account relating not the least to ‘tractor protection’ and the ability of the vehicle’s compressor. For advice on this you may well find one of the trailer manufacturers technical departments very helpful.

19

Thanks for that.

Yea they are Foden spring brakes but i know they were definately changed in the 80’s. No transmission handbrake, although it would have had one originally.

Like you say VOSA’s response is going to be the deciding factor. Either way i need/want to pull this living van so i will have to get the relevent changes made and accepted etc by the authorities. My mates HGV garage have recently done this to a modern tipper (including having it re-plated etc) so at least we know the route to follow if VOSA confirm i need to make the changes etc!

Once I get an official response I’ll post it on here for those that are interested!

Jon

20

I have finally had a response from VOSA:

"I refer to your mail of 16 November to VOSA Technical following up a previous mail dated 5 November to VOSA and actually forwarded to this department on 9 November. I apololgise for the delay which is due to pressure of work.

VOSA did not allocate train weights to those drawbar vehicles which were produced prior to the introduction of goods vehicle type approval in 1982. In those days the only goods vehicles allocated train weights were articulated tractor units.

According to the above you can legally use this vehicle to draw your living van."