Not truck related so,
Call me a simple truck driver if you want to, BUT,we have seen 2 Malaysia Airline planes lost this year. no trace of the first one and doubtful information on the black box of the second one… So why, in this technological world, is all the aircraft information not constantly streamed via satellites to a database as well as being stored on a black box which may not be found or may be interfered with ■■?
I imagine the biggest factor is cost of retro fitting existing planes.
It does take place (remember the engine traces that were tracked from flight MH370)
It will cost peanuts to install, the pilots are the ones stopping it, they see it as an invasion of privacy with Big Brother monitoring what they do at all times.
Most, if not all engines are not owned by the airlines, they are leased, the engines already stream data back to the manufacturer for maintenance, it will be minimal to stream cockpit data also, the pilots are just to large a lobby to overcome.
Now with MH370 the airlines may finally have the ammunition to push live streaming through.
A Canadian airline called “First Air” is the first to start doing it, however it is not a passive system, the pilots still have some control over it.
Why Don’t they make he planes out of the same material as the Black Boxes 
■■
Wing and a prayer:
Why Don’t they make he planes out of the same material as the Black Boxes
Cost and weight.
Why aren’t they black■■? (Rhetorical)
When I first found out about that plane shot down over Ukraine I could not believe that commercial aircraft were still using that airspace. We had a tub of skin cream for babies confiscated before getting on a plane but it seems no one saw a threat in flying over a war zone where aircraft have been shot down for weeks.
Malaysia Airlines will and should go out of business just like PanAm did IMO.
I don’t suppose that live streamed data would help in the case where a plane is shot down. It’s there then it’s gone. The black boxes won’t tell much more than that I wouldn’t think.
m1cks:
Wing and a prayer:
Why Don’t they make he planes out of the same material as the Black BoxesCost and weight.
Why aren’t they black■■? (Rhetorical)
Funnily enough this was mentioned by Suzie Dent on Countdown yesterday! Apparently ‘black’ refers to the content of the box in that it will only be opened when something bad (or Dark) has happened, the term goes back to the Middle Ages for anything nasty or morbid.
Well you did ask!!
Pete.
I agree it would be a good idea. I’m guessing the sattelites must be the limiting factor. Satellites have quite limited capactity for receiving signals. If you think how many planes there are in the world, in the sky at anyone time the chances are you’d have to send quite a few more sattelites up into space to provide the capacity to receive data from all the planes - now that bit is expensive.
All modern Airbus aircraft stream systems data back to their owner’s maintenance departments, trouble is as was highlighted with the Air France aircraft that was lost en-route from Brazil a few years back, they can only stream when they are in contact with a satellite. There are quite a few black spots in mid ocean areas
There’s 2 black boxes on aircraft. One records technical data and the other records all conversations on the flight deck wether thats between pilots and atc or just a chat between themselves.
I can’t remember the figures but the cost to stream all the data the black boxes record would be very high (which of course would be passed on to passengers). IIRC the voice recorder is on a loop and if not stopped just records the previous 30 minutes of conversation.
And they’re usually bright orange to make them visible and easier to find.
W.
wheelnutt:
It will cost peanuts to install, the pilots are the ones stopping it, they see it as an invasion of privacy with Big Brother monitoring what they do at all times
Sorry wheelnutt that’s rollocks mate. Wasn’t going to bother posting on this but that’s something the daily mail comes out with and something that grinds my beans. We already are more monitored than any other form of transport and it’s just part of the way of things. We are trained to actually preserve data on the recorders after an incident by using procedures to make sure it doesn’t get over written. In addition to ‘black boxes’ the aircraft has what’s called an FDM system. This is flight data monitoring. It monitors hundred of parameters on the aircraft and usually uploads to the company after each flight or next engineer download. If you exceed a parameter the company safety depts will investigate.
Black boxes (aviation kind 
) are orange for pure visibility reasons. Theres 2 as mentioned, one called an FDR (flight data recorder) that records telemetry and the other a CVR (cockpit voice recorder) that records ambient sounds in cockpit, interphone exchanges and atc dialogue. The technology already exists in a basic format for live feed to ground. It’s called ADS-B (automatic dependant surveillance broadcast). we use it going oceanic as part of a new communications system. It transmits using VHF radio and Satcom when out of VHF propogating range. Its limited though in its capacity in current form and the next gen of live feed system is being worked on.
Cheers!
Freight Dog:
wheelnutt:
It will cost peanuts to install, the pilots are the ones stopping it, they see it as an invasion of privacy with Big Brother monitoring what they do at all timesSorry wheelnutt that’s rollocks mate. Wasn’t going to bother posting on this but that’s something the daily mail comes out with and something that grinds my beans. We already are more monitored than any other form of transport and it’s just part of the way of things. We are trained to actually preserve data on the recorders after an incident by using procedures to make sure it doesn’t get over written. In addition to ‘black boxes’ the aircraft has what’s called an FDM system. This is flight data monitoring. It monitors hundred of parameters on the aircraft and usually uploads to the company after each flight or next engineer download. If you exceed a parameter the company safety depts will investigate.
Black boxes (aviation kind
Cheers!
Am I right in thinking that the ADS is easily turned off and often is ?
No it doesn’t work like that. Depends on ground stations being equipped. Plenty of info around if you dig but probably not right of me personally to go to in depth on functionality of it for obvious reasons as wouldn’t want it coming from me. Like everything you can find out alsorts on tinterweb if interested.
Freight Dog:
Sorry wheelnutt that’s rollocks mate. Wasn’t going to bother posting on this but that’s something the daily mail comes out with and something that grinds my beans. We already are more monitored than any other form of transportCheers!
But you are not monitored in real time. Aviation is the last self policing industry left in the world, 90% of things that go wrong in the cockpit never sees the light of day as it is up to the crew to report it and it is basic human nature, don’t crap on your own doorstep.
Freight Dog:
We are trained to actually preserve data on the recorders after an incident by using procedures to make sure it doesn’t get over written.
Cheers!
You can’t be trained to preserve data if you are burned to a crisp.
Freight Dog:
In addition to ‘black boxes’ the aircraft has what’s called an FDM system. This is flight data monitoring. It monitors hundred of parameters on the aircraft and usually uploads to the company after each flight or next engineer download. If you exceed a parameter the company safety depts will investigate.
And again, this is passive, not active, it does not get downloaded until the aircraft is safely at base, about as useful as a chocolate teacup when it comes to real-time monitoring of what you guys get up to in the pointy end and where you guys are and how the aircraft is at all times.
Freight Dog:
The technology already exists in a basic format for live feed to ground. It’s called ADS-B (automatic dependant surveillance broadcast). we use it going oceanic as part of a new communications system. It transmits using VHF radio and Satcom when out of VHF propogating range. Its limited though in its capacity in current form and the next gen of live feed system is being worked on.Cheers!
All it needs is a software patch and aircraft can download all data collected by FDR’s and EICAS in real time to monitor the aircraft systems, the crew and its position.
No airline has managed to get this through the pilot lobby yet, First Air is the first to try.
Many trucks on the other hand are monitored real time with trackers plenty of which send life data back regarding, braking, engine telemetry etc.
Wheelnutt. I can’t recall if its you I spoke with before or not. Are you a former commercial air transport pilot or just an enthusiast? I’m not sure what axe you’re grinding against aircrew. I am well aware thank you that we are unable to preserve data if burnt to a crisp but I added that to the insinuation pilots wish to evade data capture. If as you crassly put it are burnt to a crisp that is precisely what the fdr is for. As regards to comments about it not being real time capture, you cannot compare a 747 to a truck. As said the technology is there. I’ve just flown a 747 from Jeddah to Amsterdam this morning and we used the technology along the way. It works, it’s happening albeit in infancy. Any suggestion the whole pilot fraternity is blocking the advancement and is not correct. Sorry to be direct but I’m in no mood for pandering to this. I’ve been up 18 hours am knackered and still dead heading awaits to get home
I read through your post again wheelnutt and although I said I won’t pander to it, I can’t let your comments lie without response.
wheelnutt:
But you are not monitored in real time. Aviation is the last self policing industry left in the world, 90% of things that go wrong in the cockpit never sees the light of day as it is up to the crew to report it and it is basic human nature, don’t crap on your own doorstep.
You started your assail on airline pilots blocking the developments with (ads-d/cpdlc I presume) data capture technology. I was raising the point that we are monitored against the glibly veneered suggestion we’re all afraid of the truth getting out. You further posted an opinion that you feel aviation is the last self policed industry. This statement is woefully incorrect. Just to pick one safety critical profession out of the hat;Â medicine for example? My AME was former head doctor at the CAA and now also a line pilot. He has raised the following points on a CRM cross industry meeting. It is common knowledge in aviation that medicine is nowhere near as “policed” as aviation. Our best CRM minds are being called upon by the BMA to instill the aviation culture within the medical industry. They have no recurrent checking system. The medical profession suffers a self connected investigative body and regulator unlike aviation. Â We undergo in depth, thorough tests every 4-6 months, line checks every year, independent regulator and accident investigation. We are monitored by FDM, CPDLC, SSR, Mode S, ATC watch your every move, we are duty bound by the MOR system. Medicine on the other hand has no such tight recurrency checking/testing. We are also one of the professions that truly die with our mistakes along with everyone else on board, unlike some of those others professions you haven’t mentioned. We are heavily “policed”, just not by the way you’d recognise within haulage.
What quite do you mean by “don’t crap on your own doorstep??”. This isn’t driving, foot to floor, chuck frisbees out the window run bent, avoid vosa time. Â I have lost 2 dear friends in a commercial air crash at a former airline and can assure you they did not run around “unpoliced” trying to break the rules. I had a main deck cargo fire warning last week in the freighter. It caused a few near heart attacks amongst us and thank god turned out to be spurious (read UPS 747 crash dubai for relevance)
Believe it or not we have as large a self preservation instinct as any. What do you mean by policed anyway? Something analogous to vosa pulling us over or the old bill hidden behind hedges? Alright, if you know anything about aviation, you’ll know every airline has a CAA flight ops inspector who goes through the airline and it’s training/maintenance records like a fly on dog dirt. SAAFA complete ramp inspections at whim (I’ve had one, leaves vosa standing), you cause a problem with ATC- you’ll be asr’d/mor’d. Your training/sim records are on file for the CAA to see at the next audit. The medical is class 1. But wait, it’s real time policing that bothers you? Like lorries? I think you’re trying to apply what happens with a lorry travelling at 56 mph on a flat surface to an airliner at Mach .895 and 41000 . What would your real time “police” be looking for anyway if they were able to monitor real time jet airliner data and even understand it?
wheelnutt:
You can’t be trained to preserve data if you are burned to a crisp.
Quite what point are you making here I’m not sure. The only reason you take the actions to preserve data is if you’re alive and well, the aircraft is intact and had a defined serious incident under the OMA, and the FDR risks being overwritten by further movements, engineering proceedings and power downs/power ups. If I was killed in the crash I wouldn’t have to worry about preserving the data as it would automatically be preserved on power cut and hardly likely to be overwritten by actions such as maintenance given there’s unlikely to be much if an aircraft left.
wheelnutt:
And again, this is passive, not active, it does not get downloaded until the aircraft is safely at base, about as useful as a chocolate teacup when it comes to real-time monitoring of what you guys get up to in the pointy end and where you guys are and how the aircraft is at all times.
You seem to have some passing recognition of aviation terms. You may or may not be aware with enhanced mode S, Â live parameters are available to ATC. Â Believe me, they use it and they question you for any deviations. You even select a wrong Mach number in the London TMA and it’s queried. What other live parameters bother you? Detailed stuff, angle of attack, load factor, Tla, N1 indications etc? Well that’s coming but only for purposes of post accident data capture. Back to the policing analogy. What is the point of real time in depth capture, as no ATC unit will be able to fathom detailed telemetry of a jet airliner in relation to time space and determine the relevance of such data? If its the lack of post crash analysis that bothers you, once again, I bang my head. This data capture technology exists and is improving all the time.
I would apologise for my directness but I do take issue with the tone that suggests as pilots we’re no more than bent running lorry drivers of the sky requiring some sort of lorry sky vosa. I have had my share of serious events happen in 18 years of flying. We take it extremely seriously and that’s reflected in the standards that are so very high during the multitude initial exams/tests/recurrent checks and I wouldn’t want any lay person reading this to presume otherwise.