Petrol and diesel cars to be phased out within 20 years?

DAF95XF:

Hydro:
DfT have just jacked a load of railway electrification owing to cost and project overruns and ordered new build diesel trains

Think you’ll find that the new trains aren’t just diesel but can run on diesel and electricity…

Some, not all. Govt aim a few years ago was no new build Diesel units, that’s well and truly gone, especially in the north. Even with the bi-modes, there’s an absolute shed load of diesel engines required where previously there were whole routes planned where they weren’t needed at all.

I’m a bit puzzled that there seems to be no scrappage scheme planned or juicy incentives to encourage people to buy new hybrids/EVs, even the tax benefits are being cut, aren’t they? My company has been looking at electric vans for inner city (mainly London) work, initially looking promising as only required to carry a very light payload, no congestion charge etc, but the charging infrastructure is quite pricey - bearing in mind these vehicles will be used 24/7 and need fast chargers, not just a slow mains charger.

Big burner:
The volatility of the oil market after 2003 due to the Iraqi war and China’s massive pre-economic crash demand caused America (and others) to seriously consider switching to alternate fuel sources (at last!). America now has as much as 15% ethanol in their petrol and uses gas from fracking for electricity production, as 2 examples.

Saudi Arabia (OPEC’s swing producer) upped production (around 2008) to reduce the price and therefore stimulate demand, in order to avoid the plateau of Hubbert’s ‘Peak Oil’ theory, an event that will be the death knell, long term, for countries that only produce oil. Not all the OPEC countries can increase production, Indonesia was forced to leave OPEC in 2008 as it was unable to meet the increased production quota, and the investment wasn’t available to try. The peak oil theory relies on oil discoveries as part of it’s calculations and is therefore open to being rigged by oil producers. Some people think that peak production/reserves was actually reached in 2010, most think it will be by 2020 and even the most optimistic concede that it cannot be later than 2030. If the theory is correct the demand for oil will fall as quickly as it grew (over about 100 years), but the price will diminish exponentially (about half price after 30 years) this will make it uneconomic for most producers to extract. The Spermaceti oil usage that the theory was developed from (which also had 100 year to peak cycle) saw the price fall by 78% in 40 years. Under this theory (and it’s only a theory) countries that rely on oil production will face economic collapse by 2060 at the latest.

Traditionally oil and investment businesses, who are closely connected to political power, have protected competition to oil as it was a major investment return for them. They are no longer doing this as returns have plummeted. In 2016 they were down to about 2.5% (and it’s not exactly risk free). This is leading to fewer discoveries which in turn lowers the reserve to production ratio and brings the ‘peak’ nearer or makes the decent quicker a vicious cycle. The reverse is true for investment in Renewable Energy which is currently seeing returns of 5.5% and growing. It is effectively underwritten by the government as well so risk free.

Last month for the first time more than 50% of peak midday electricity was produced by Nuclear and Renewable Energy. The Renewables have accounted for more than 25% of electricity generation since 2015 up from 3% in 2003. Oil is dying!

The Middle Eastern countries are now starting to invest in other countries to hedge against oil demand crashing, something they didn’t really do before. It’s why the UAE are developing tourism in Dubai.

Just for the record I’m a confirmed petrol-head not a Green, but the writing is on the wall (and in quite big letters I might add)

You might be a confirmed petrol head but you’ve obviously swallowed all the Green bs that goes along the lines of if we can’t legislate them off the road we’ll scare them with the bs idea that the oil is all running out.In which case we obviously wouldn’t expect to see the air transport industry planning for massive growth over a similar period.Let me guess the Greens are going to try to make the case that they are also going to be able to fly planes loaded with tonnes of batteries powered by electric motors. :unamused:

As for the supposed future of oil production,how does that translate into the issue of banning ICE powered vehicles.When they aren’t mutually exclusive with alternative fuels including Hydrogen,regardless.Not to mention the 1,000 years worth of coal reserves,that can easily be turned into petrol etc,that the government have now buried under ground never to be used.

The truth is what we’re seeing is an obvious plan of control freak government in trying to create the nightmare vision contained in movies like Demolition Man.All dressed up under the Green cover story including non existent ‘climate change’.Which if anything is getting colder with a change to a lower average atmospheric pressure if this zb Summer among others is anything to go by.In which case the bleedin irony of having to use expensive electric heating in the Summer to go with the even more expensively taxed zb electric car.That’s if you can even afford the purchase costs.Let alone keep up the battery lease and replacement payments on it being all part of the same captive market plan.IE this isn’t about creating a competitive ‘alternative’ to oil which by definition would mean the freedom of choice to use either.This is all about creating a captive market for the EV producers and electricity producers.Good luck if you think that those sharks are out to give us a good deal,as opposed to ripping us off big time.IE if it’s all about alternatives and competition then we obviously won’t need to ban ICE powered vehicles just as we didn’t need to close the coal mines removing that alternative.It would just be a case of carrying on using the stuff until it really does run out which ain’t any time soon and certainly not by 2040.

On that note it obviously isn’t the fossil fuel producers that are all about removing competition and choice here.It’s the electricity producers who are doing that.With as I said banning domestic gas heating being their obvious next move.Thereby creating another captive market for their expensive inefficient energy product.Not to mention the eventual,inevitable,Chernobyl type scenario,but on a much bigger scale,being a matter of when not if.

Carryfast:

Big burner:
The volatility of the oil market after 2003 due to the Iraqi war and China’s massive pre-economic crash demand caused America (and others) to seriously consider switching to alternate fuel sources (at last!). America now has as much as 15% ethanol in their petrol and uses gas from fracking for electricity production, as 2 examples.

Saudi Arabia (OPEC’s swing producer) upped production (around 2008) to reduce the price and therefore stimulate demand, in order to avoid the plateau of Hubbert’s ‘Peak Oil’ theory, an event that will be the death knell, long term, for countries that only produce oil. Not all the OPEC countries can increase production, Indonesia was forced to leave OPEC in 2008 as it was unable to meet the increased production quota, and the investment wasn’t available to try. The peak oil theory relies on oil discoveries as part of it’s calculations and is therefore open to being rigged by oil producers. Some people think that peak production/reserves was actually reached in 2010, most think it will be by 2020 and even the most optimistic concede that it cannot be later than 2030. If the theory is correct the demand for oil will fall as quickly as it grew (over about 100 years), but the price will diminish exponentially (about half price after 30 years) this will make it uneconomic for most producers to extract. The Spermaceti oil usage that the theory was developed from (which also had 100 year to peak cycle) saw the price fall by 78% in 40 years. Under this theory (and it’s only a theory) countries that rely on oil production will face economic collapse by 2060 at the latest.

Traditionally oil and investment businesses, who are closely connected to political power, have protected competition to oil as it was a major investment return for them. They are no longer doing this as returns have plummeted. In 2016 they were down to about 2.5% (and it’s not exactly risk free). This is leading to fewer discoveries which in turn lowers the reserve to production ratio and brings the ‘peak’ nearer or makes the decent quicker a vicious cycle. The reverse is true for investment in Renewable Energy which is currently seeing returns of 5.5% and growing. It is effectively underwritten by the government as well so risk free.

Last month for the first time more than 50% of peak midday electricity was produced by Nuclear and Renewable Energy. The Renewables have accounted for more than 25% of electricity generation since 2015 up from 3% in 2003. Oil is dying!

The Middle Eastern countries are now starting to invest in other countries to hedge against oil demand crashing, something they didn’t really do before. It’s why the UAE are developing tourism in Dubai.

Just for the record I’m a confirmed petrol-head not a Green, but the writing is on the wall (and in quite big letters I might add)

You might be a confirmed petrol head but you’ve obviously swallowed all the Green bs that goes along the lines of if we can’t legislate them off the road we’ll scare them with the bs idea that the oil is all running out.In which case we obviously wouldn’t expect to see the air transport industry planning for massive growth over a similar period.Let me guess the Greens are going to try to make the case that they are also going to be able to fly planes loaded with tonnes of batteries powered by electric motors. :unamused:

As for the supposed future of oil production,how does that translate into the issue of banning ICE powered vehicles.When they aren’t mutually exclusive with alternative fuels including Hydrogen,regardless.Not to mention the 1,000 years worth of coal reserves,that can easily be turned into petrol etc,that the government have now buried under ground never to be used.

The truth is what we’re seeing is an obvious plan of control freak government in trying to create the nightmare vision contained in movies like Demolition Man.All dressed up under the Green cover story including non existent ‘climate change’.Which if anything is getting colder with a change to a lower average atmospheric pressure if this zb Summer among others is anything to go by.In which case the bleedin irony of having to use expensive electric heating in the Summer to go with the even more expensively taxed zb electric car.That’s if you can even afford the purchase costs.Let alone keep up the battery lease and replacement payments on it being all part of the same captive market plan.IE this isn’t about creating a competitive ‘alternative’ to oil which by definition would mean the freedom of choice to use either.This is all about creating a captive market for the EV producers and electricity producers.Good luck if you think that those sharks are out to give us a good deal,as opposed to ripping us off big time.IE if it’s all about alternatives and competition then we obviously won’t need to ban ICE powered vehicles just as we didn’t need to close the coal mines removing that alternative.It would just be a case of carrying on using the stuff until it really does run out which ain’t any time soon and certainly not by 2040.

On that note it obviously isn’t the fossil fuel producers that are all about removing competition and choice here.It’s the electricity producers who are doing that.With as I said banning domestic gas heating being their obvious next move.Thereby creating another captive market for their expensive inefficient energy product.Not to mention the eventual,inevitable,Chernobyl type scenario,but on a much bigger scale,being a matter of when not if.

So, in essence, you’re saying it’s a big conspiracy because we’ve sold our nuclear power generating capacity to the Chinese (with a ridiculously high per unit cost to the consumer) and then forcing the consumer to use electricity for all their energy demands?

PS I agree that man made climate change is a BS idea created to raise revenue.

Now, where’s my tinfoil hat gone?

I drive a 18 month old 2.2L diesel car, if there is so much pollution coming from the exhaust why is the end as clean now as the day I bought it when not that many years ago it would of been black

They’d better invent a battery that knocks out 3000nm of Torque quick or the tang fridge drivers will be crying themselves to sleep.

Hydro:

DAF95XF:

Hydro:
DfT have just jacked a load of railway electrification owing to cost and project overruns and ordered new build diesel trains

Think you’ll find that the new trains aren’t just diesel but can run on diesel and electricity…

Some, not all. Govt aim a few years ago was no new build Diesel units, that’s well and truly gone, especially in the north. Even with the bi-modes, there’s an absolute shed load of diesel engines required where previously there were whole routes planned where they weren’t needed at all.

I’m a bit puzzled that there seems to be no scrappage scheme planned or juicy incentives to encourage people to buy new hybrids/EVs, even the tax benefits are being cut, aren’t they? My company has been looking at electric vans for inner city (mainly London) work, initially looking promising as only required to carry a very light payload, no congestion charge etc, but the charging infrastructure is quite pricey - bearing in mind these vehicles will be used 24/7 and need fast chargers, not just a slow mains charger.

saddly the bi modal trains will suffer from being a bit of a pi in a poke when in electic mode they will be drgging around the weight of diesel fuel and engines (lots of em) kiling the perfomance advantage of running electic .and when in Diesel modr will struggle for power and be very very noisey with many underfloir mou ted engines to provide enough power …plus higher fuel consumption and maintainance costs

Electric vehicles are coming, Tesla made the electric car cool and it won’t be long before they figure out who to make batteries small enough and light enough for commercial use. But there is one question we’re all forgetting, how long before someone reverses into the charging station in a MSA and knocks it over? Those electric fridge points didn’t seem to last long when club plant pot arrived!

mac12:
I drive a 18 month old 2.2L diesel car, if there is so much pollution coming from the exhaust why is the end as clean now as the day I bought it when not that many years ago it would of been black

My A-class that I bought in 2015 costs £20 a year to tax. My new E-Class I bought 3 weeks ago costs £450 a year to tax! After the first year though. The E-Classes engine is one of the most efficient and clean diesels you can get today!

Captain Caveman 76:
So, in essence, you’re saying it’s a big conspiracy because we’ve sold our nuclear power generating capacity to the Chinese (with a ridiculously high per unit cost to the consumer) and then forcing the consumer to use electricity for all their energy demands?

PS I agree that man made climate change is a BS idea created to raise revenue.

Now, where’s my tinfoil hat gone?

It doesn’t take a tin foil hat to ask the question if it’s all about providing an ‘alternative’ and more ‘competition’ or to deal with the problem of fossil fuel supplies having supposedly run out then they obviously wouldn’t need to actually ‘ban’ the use of ICE powered vehicles at any point.Let alone bury our coal reserves beyond use.Nor for that matter would the air transport industry have any plans for future growth or any future at all beyond 2040.

As for the ‘climate change’ scam that all obviously fits in with a nuclear fuelled domestic energy policy based on a rip off captive market and monopoly for the nuclear energy providers.Bearing in mind they know that no one with any sense would actually choose their expensive,inefficient,electric option to power the car or heat the home even in the case of cheaper coal fired electricity generation let alone nuclear. :bulb: Like Norway I think we all know where this is going.We get lumbered with the expensive monopoly of an electric fuelled energy policy.While we both export what remains of our oil and gas reserves for use by China etc as part payment. :unamused:

Carryfast:

Hank Hill:
2040… On a mid dull winters day with very little sun light and no wind, blackouts after the afternoon school run will be common news.

More likely a case of no where to run to and no way of evacuating the population in time and swathes of agricultural land lost to a major nuclear incident at any one of the massive nuclear power plants having been built by then.

I’m ok with the nuclear risk. It’s mostly safe.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Radar19:
Electric vehicles are coming, Tesla made the electric car cool and it won’t be long before they figure out who to make batteries small enough and light enough for commercial use. But there is one question we’re all forgetting, how long before someone reverses into the charging station in a MSA and knocks it over? Those electric fridge points didn’t seem to last long when club plant pot arrived!

Like all EV’s Tesla have actually just made an expensive toy that’s all about ripping off the customer by providing the least possible product for the most possible return.Which explains why the manufacturers are so keen on the things.While if it’s so cool they’d obviously have no problem with the continuation of the freedom of choice for those who prefer to buy a proper motor.That’s even without factoring in what happens when road fuel duty is put onto EV electricity charging to add to the real world costs and inefficiency of electricity.Let alone when the manufacturers start taking full advantage of their monopoly on battery provision and replacement.IE you pay twice once for the purchase/lease of the vehicle and again for probably only lease of the batteries.Meanwhile the manufacturer charges for ICE type vehicle levels of value in the product or more,while actually providing a battery powered electric toy.The obvious issue being that many buyers know all that which is why the establishment is going to make it a matter of compulsion not choice.

On that note no one with any sense would want to change their domestic heating boiler from gas to electric so why act like turkeys voting for Christmas in being so keen in the case of the car.Bearing in mind that road fuel duty will need to be added to the already extortionate costs of electricity v burning whatever fuel directly. :unamused:

IronEddie:
I’m ok with the nuclear risk. It’s mostly safe.

It’s safe until it inevitably explodes or leaks at some point.Then as I said you’ve got a massive population living on a small Island with no where to run and no way out.In addition to wiping out our food production capacity to feed those who don’t die sooner or later of the radiation poisoning.

Let me guess you’re also a ‘climate change’ believer and think nuclear is the way to save the planet from a non existent made up theory by a bunch of scammers,working for the interests of the Chinese Communist Party,just so long as they get a kickback from it. :unamused:

On that note I’m guessing that the stupid corrupt zb’s running the establishment won’t be investing in property in Pripyat anytime soon.

Radar19:

mac12:
I drive a 18 month old 2.2L diesel car, if there is so much pollution coming from the exhaust why is the end as clean now as the day I bought it when not that many years ago it would of been black

My A-class that I bought in 2015 costs £20 a year to tax. My new E-Class I bought 3 weeks ago costs £450 a year to tax! After the first year though. The E-Classes engine is one of the most efficient and clean diesels you can get today!

My 09 astra was only £30 to tax. Government has decided diesel is evil again hence the increase in tax on your new car.

And I guess that’s the thing with all this environment stuff. It’s too wrapped up in politics and what the powers that be choose. It’s hard to know what the truth actually is.

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one of my cars is a 1.5 dci megane.£30 a year tax…same engine in a scenic.£130…same engine in a berlingo…£130…same engine in a megane cabriolet £130…same engine,same year,has to be same emissions,just the goverment milking it to death.

it looks like the irish arnt so daft after all.the irish have all the potatoes and the arabs have all the oil…the reason being that when god made the world he gave the irish first choice…we might not need diesel cars 50 years from now,but we will always need chips. :slight_smile:

IronEddie:

Radar19:

mac12:
I drive a 18 month old 2.2L diesel car, if there is so much pollution coming from the exhaust why is the end as clean now as the day I bought it when not that many years ago it would of been black

My A-class that I bought in 2015 costs £20 a year to tax. My new E-Class I bought 3 weeks ago costs £450 a year to tax! After the first year though. The E-Classes engine is one of the most efficient and clean diesels you can get today!

My 09 astra was only £30 to tax. Government has decided diesel is evil again hence the increase in tax on your new car.

And I guess that’s the thing with all this environment stuff. It’s too wrapped up in politics and what the powers that be choose. It’s hard to know what the truth actually is.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

The thing with all this environmental stuff is that no one actually knows. ‘Experts’ have a guess, then politicians exploit it until the next ‘guess’.

IronEddie:
My 09 astra was only £30 to tax. Government has decided diesel is evil again hence the increase in tax on your new car.

And I guess that’s the thing with all this environment stuff. It’s too wrapped up in politics and what the powers that be choose. It’s hard to know what the truth actually is.

Diesel being a dirtier fuel to burn than petrol,let alone LPG,isn’t in doubt.However it’s clear that the government has no intention of just making petrol/LPG fuelled vehicles more attractive by massively reducing petrol/LPG fuel taxation and putting it on diesel.

This is all about removing the freedom of choice,to use internal combustion engines to create a captive market and monopoly for EV producers and electricity generators.IE a totally different agenda that’s just taking advantage of and using the justified fears over diesel,as an obvious red herring and a diversion,to remove the freedom of choice to use any type of ICE.

It wont happen think how many people could be out of work.Just tories trying to win new voters after there loss at the last election thats all it is.

2040 we will all be driving these tbh…

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Increasing the demand for electricity and storage for electricity whilst depleted pretty much all demand for Petroleum products…
Hmm.

The only fly in the ointment is that by 2040 the oil states citizens will have out-bred us, and voted us to do something completely different.

If Brexit can already be talked about being “overturned” - when we’ve voted for that, then surely it will be even easier to overturn “doing away with dependency on Petroleum” by those same powers that be…?

Queue: Trumped-up reduction in diplomacy with China, similar to the trumped-up downgrading of cheap Russian energy. Even Germany are being told by the US corporations right now to “stop using cheapo Russia stuff, and start paying more for ours - there’s trade sanctions on dontya know!”

There’s even the possibility that Western governments might like to make some kind of “back market” on trashed solar panels - to get the Lanthenides out of them, which China otherwise rations the rest of the world in.
Buy a solar panel, scrap it through some government scheme, and harvest the fancy mineral content.
Everyone is a winner except China. Even the Arab states are happy, because we didn’t wean ourselves off fossil fuels after all. :unamused:

Colin_scottish:
It wont happen think how many people could be out of work.Just tories trying to win new voters after there loss at the last election thats all it is.

The Tories would do better in winning back those voters they’ve already lost - like the ones who seriously believed that May would have spent her first few months in office trashing the Foreign Aid Budget, and raising £12bn per year on the spot… Don’t have to wait for the “Brexit £350m per week” that way. What we give to countries that laugh at us for giving it them - can be scrapped pretty much overnight to little or no consequence. In any case, those original intended recipients of that “Charity Abroad” - are already on their way here now - if not here already. So just how many new flash cars and 99 inch TVs can some foreign Dictator possibly want or need? :unamused: