Pedestrian killed by lorry in Kensington

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

3300John:

rambo19:
I’m a london bus driver.

We are told, that, in the event of someone trapped under the bus, ONLY the ambulance service can ask for it to be moved.
Sometimes, it’s better to leave the person under the vehcile until all the resorces are in place.
Simular to if someone is stabbed, most people will pull the knife out if the attacker has left it in the victim, but that can cause more damage.

Hiya it did say the ambulance was there 1 hour before the lifting gear. going back years ago, their was a crash on
the M25 near Godstone which involved about 50 vehicles, a petrol tanker was in the crash. the petrol leaked and
caught fire to many of the vehicles… there was a chap in a transit trapped by his foot. no one had the guts to tie
a rope round his leg and ■■■■■■ his foot (possibly off)clear… the young man burned to death. which would you have
tried as a last resort…Yes each job needs assesing.
John

The same type of scenario could be envisaged in the case of a possible spinal injury in which careful expert medical help is required but can’t be provided because of time issues.

There has to be a point where the question needs to be asked what has the casualty got to lose in at least maybe having a chance v the worst case scenario being a virtual certainty by playing it safe.

22

Constantine:

stevieboy308:
on the course they told us about crush syndrome and if someone has been crushed for 15 minutes or more, or you don’t know how long, then you need to leave them trapped. i think they said it was something to do with you body producing a chemical that needs neutralising before you’re released, otherwise it can kill you.

they said the hardest part can often be convincing people to leave them trapped

Similar to suspension trauma then if you fall and remain suspended on a harness usually for that period of time 15 mins or more. That does need some very specialist rescue procedures prior to release, otherwise the toxins build up and kill you upon you being released and they have to inject you too to neutralise those toxins before they reach vital organs.

Hence why lots of scaffolders I worked with always argued about bothering to clip on or talked about just cutting themselves away before it took affect and always carried a knife.

So makes a lot of sense why they have to take their time before they “just roll” a vehicle off a person. I didn’t think they did it just for fun and “stood around” for an hour waiting for stuff to arrive etc.

Again been a dark week for London and our image. Hopefully all parties will try to remember this and have respect for each other, as much as some don’t like it, we HAVE to SHARE the road space together.

Most importantly incredibly sad times for all those poor people who have died, those left behind and all the families who will have to pick up the pieces, you have my condolences.

Stay safe out there.

C

You mentioned falling with a harness, but think about it, abseilers and those doing a high altitude high opening parachute jump would wear a harness or a lot longer than fifteen minutes. The problem seems to occur when blood flow is restricted to individual limbs. Wearing a harness that fits round the hips/groin would be ok I’d have thought, as it wouldn’t be compressing any arteries as such■■?

I don’t understand why it took an hour for lifting gear to arrive.

Re the man in the van, I think a leaking tanker would make you think twice. I’m not sure what I’d do until it happened (god forbid). I have been inside a crashed car to check a man who’d crashed his car, I just thought "■■■■ it :laughing: "

23

bazza123:

Constantine:

stevieboy308:
on the course they told us about crush syndrome and if someone has been crushed for 15 minutes or more, or you don’t know how long, then you need to leave them trapped. i think they said it was something to do with you body producing a chemical that needs neutralising before you’re released, otherwise it can kill you.

they said the hardest part can often be convincing people to leave them trapped

Similar to suspension trauma then if you fall and remain suspended on a harness usually for that period of time 15 mins or more. That does need some very specialist rescue procedures prior to release, otherwise the toxins build up and kill you upon you being released and they have to inject you too to neutralise those toxins before they reach vital organs.

Hence why lots of scaffolders I worked with always argued about bothering to clip on or talked about just cutting themselves away before it took affect and always carried a knife.

So makes a lot of sense why they have to take their time before they “just roll” a vehicle off a person. I didn’t think they did it just for fun and “stood around” for an hour waiting for stuff to arrive etc.

Again been a dark week for London and our image. Hopefully all parties will try to remember this and have respect for each other, as much as some don’t like it, we HAVE to SHARE the road space together.

Most importantly incredibly sad times for all those poor people who have died, those left behind and all the families who will have to pick up the pieces, you have my condolences.

Stay safe out there.

C

You mentioned falling with a harness, but think about it, abseilers and those doing a high altitude high opening parachute jump would wear a harness or a lot longer than fifteen minutes. The problem seems to occur when blood flow is restricted to individual limbs. Wearing a harness that fits round the hips/groin would be ok I’d have thought, as it wouldn’t be compressing any arteries as such■■?

It’s more so being unconscious and suspended as you don’t move about and enough blood can’t be pumped to your brain. Abseilers normally have something to kick off or can move to keep blood flowing.
I imagine a knife would only be useful if you were on your own in the middle of nowhere.

24

Carryfast:
The fact is it’s not going to help the situation for vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists to be put in the false sense of security that drivers can do much more than they are already doing in most cases.

Carryfast,

Why do you have to take this constant attitude, that we cannot share the zbing road with anyone, what is your major malfunction soldier?

Unfortunately they all have a right to be using a road, as everyone has paid for that bit of tarmac, concrete, brick sett, concrete paving slab somewhere in the mix through the taxation system.

How is not sharing and having consideration for each other not going to help a situation…that is a silly thing to say. Having this constant one sided attitude and not thinking of anyone, like you are doing is what causes different parties to become entrenched.

In essence you are NO better than a zbing cyclist with your current attitude that your way is the only way.

You are a vocational driver (I may say professional driver - but some may not like that) you have earnt a privledge NOT A right to drive a large vehicle with that comes a lot of responsibility to drive carefully, considerately and try to protect the more vulnerable users on the road.

Not this zb em attitude you are portraying in nearly every post on the matter on the site at the moment.

You really are full of zb, these are zbing real people dying out there. They could be your relatives, your wife, your child, your sibling etc. I wonder if your attitude would change then :question:

Sometimes just sometimes it may not be there fault, do you know all the facts of all these accidents and the investigations, because i’d be bloody sure the investigators don’t know them yet.

My statement you quoted was BS Utopia, it was a statement of fact you just don’t chose to like. But unfortunately the law insists on it and that is no one party has a greater right than another to use a road bar…a pedestrian.

Perhaps you should remind yourself of this fact a little more before you get caught in a situation like this, which I wouldn’t wish on you or anyone else to be perfectly honest!

C

25

Constantine:

Carryfast:
The fact is it’s not going to help the situation for vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists to be put in the false sense of security that drivers can do much more than they are already doing in most cases.

Carryfast,

Why do you have to take this constant attitude, that we cannot share the zbing road with anyone, what is your major malfunction soldier?

Unfortunately they all have a right to be using a road, as everyone has paid for that bit of tarmac, concrete, brick sett, concrete paving slab somewhere in the mix through the taxation system.

How is not sharing and having consideration for each other not going to help a situation…that is a silly thing to say. Having this constant one sided attitude and not thinking of anyone, like you are doing is what causes different parties to become entrenched.

In essence you are NO better than a zbing cyclist with your current attitude that your way is the only way.

You are a vocational driver (I may say professional driver - but some may not like that) you have earnt a privledge NOT A right to drive a large vehicle with that comes a lot of responsibility to drive carefully, considerately and try to protect the more vulnerable users on the road.

Not this zb em attitude you are portraying in nearly every post on the matter on the site at the moment.

You really are full of zb, these are zbing real people dying out there. They could be your relatives, your wife, your child, your sibling etc. I wonder if your attitude would change then :question:

Sometimes just sometimes it may not be there fault, do you know all the facts of all these accidents and the investigations, because i’d be bloody sure the investigators don’t know them yet.

My statement you quoted was BS Utopia, it was a statement of fact you just don’t chose to like. But unfortunately the law insists on it and that is no one party has a greater right than another to use a road bar…a pedestrian.

Perhaps you should remind yourself of this fact a little more before you get caught in a situation like this, which I wouldn’t wish on you or anyone else to be perfectly honest!

C

The fact is I’ve used the roads under the type of regime which I’m describing.As opposed to the type of PC zb up that we’ve got now which is getting people killed.What is your problem in understanding the simple fact that vulnerable road users aren’t going to be safe,if they don’t show extreme respect and caution around traffic on the roads,to the point where we reverse the bs idea that drivers will always be able to see and protect such vulnerable road users. :unamused:

26

bazza123:
You mentioned falling with a harness, but think about it, abseilers and those doing a high altitude high opening parachute jump would wear a harness or a lot longer than fifteen minutes. The problem seems to occur when blood flow is restricted to individual limbs. Wearing a harness that fits round the hips/groin would be ok I’d have thought, as it wouldn’t be compressing any arteries as such■■?

I don’t understand why it took an hour for lifting gear to arrive.

Hey Bazza123,

Think you misunderstood me mate, I meant falling with a harness whilst clipped on e.g. scaffold or MEWP etc. Do you wear harnesses?

If not I’ll try to explain as I used too and I am having to again, but I’m not professional enough to explain it technically so I’ll do it as I understand it.

You can wear a harness all day long mate with no issues, I used to on the underground and in the sewers for like 12 - 14+ hours, you just have them done up tight, but comfortable in case at any moment they are needed in an emergency and you need to be recovered.

If you have them done up tight you won’t slip out of the harness either! :blush: Ask how that happened in one of my training sessions for me to know this fact. And for men this is even more important so you don’t lose your testicles (as in physically rupture and pop them out the skin) etc! :open_mouth:

The problem is whilst you are moving around on the ground, your body isn’t affected by the harness, its a bit constricting to due it being a snug fit etc, but not that bad either. :laughing: However when you are floating within mid-air, with no support underneath relying on your harness to prevent you falling to the ground here cometh the problem.

Usually depending on the harness you usually only have one clip point fixed to one point on the harness hence you are just hanging like a leaf on a tree if the unfortunate happens to you.

This is where dreaded suspension trauma is likely to occur, as you rightfully said wearing a harness is always likely to go through your legs and tighten around your groin and obviously closes around your shoulder and hips, so you don’t slip out.

However in your groin there are actually quite a few important arteries and veins in there serving your whole body and keeping you alive.

So when suspended in midair the harness is literally crushing your groinal area and hence compressing them artieries. All the toxins then build up in there as your body can’t clean them out as the blood supply is constricted and hence during this time you usually faint too, quite quickly.

However the dangerous bit is when you are freed, the constricted/compressed arteries/veins are suddenly able to flow again, but now with all the toxins the flow around your body and of course shut down and poison your vital organs. Hence you need to be given a specific injection prior to be released if you are suspended and have been up there for over say 15 minutes, obviously each person is different.

As for the knife a lot of scaffolders and steelfixers swore by it. On a big steel project we practiced our rescue plan (with a dummy), if someone remained conscious you’d hope you could coax them to create a seperate standing loop with rope which to support themselves until you could get it sorted so they could relieve the pressure off themselves and by us on the ground enough time to get a MEWP over or the rescue plan enacted.

However like the dummy if they were unconcious the quickest we ever got the rescue plan enacted and to the casualty was 11 minutes and that was with all the resources close by, technically no good as they’d be close to having suspension trauma and would be very ill even once rescued. It was even commented that even at that speed we’d have to seek guidance from a emergency operator whether to release or leave them up there until we could get a paramedic up there to give them an injection and then release them.

Back to the thread a crush victim would most probably suffer the same time of physiological problems as suspension trauma, hence they don’t want to move stuff straight away and make the situation worse!

C

Edit - Corrected atricious spelling and grammar - Stupid smart phone operator!

27

Carryfast:
The fact is I’ve used the roads under the type of regime which I’m describing.As opposed to the type of PC zb up that we’ve got now which is getting people killed.What is your problem in understanding the simple fact that vulnerable road users aren’t going to be safe,if they don’t show extreme respect and caution around traffic on the roads,to the point where we reverse the bs idea that drivers will always be able to see and protect such vulnerable road users. :unamused:

Guess what Carryfast you ain’t the only one and shock horror…so do I use them same roads you do, my friends on here do, my friends not on here do and wow so does my Dad :open_mouth:

And people getting run over ain’t a PC zb up thing either…guess what bud its actually been happening since the advent of motor vehicles unfortunately. I never said anyone was going to be safe either my comment was we have to respect each other and try and keep each other safe.

What’s really wrong with that thought in common sense, in a modern society like ours, that you continually prattle on about there’s not enough of?

Here’s a bizarre concept, you’re just going to have to accept whilst being a “professional driver” You have to share the roads with lots of different road users. And unfortunately out of pure curteousy you have to respect them and their short comings, that’s your’s and our reality and a common decency of trying not to kill people and accept that humans do make mistakes…and lots of them.

Be a man and accept that! :imp:

where we reverse the bs idea that drivers will always be able to see and protect such vulnerable road users.

You can’t be that much of an old school driver as I thought. As all the old boys including those who have retired or even departed now, who I knew drove lorries. Have always said to me, “you have a responsibility there kid, make sure you respect that and always be careful and ensure you expect the unexpected, as it will always happen as night turns to day, eyes in the back of your head etc” and all that ■■■■■■■■.

So how come, you as one of the next generation to them, seems to think that mantra shouldn’t apply to you anymore, like it did to them and quite a lot of us now. What makes you so special that you expect London should be put in lockdown when you’re on the roads… :question:

C

28

Contraflow:

rambo19:
I’m a london bus driver.

Commiserations.

Not wrong there… :smiley:

29

Constantine:

Carryfast:
The fact is I’ve used the roads under the type of regime which I’m describing.As opposed to the type of PC zb up that we’ve got now which is getting people killed.What is your problem in understanding the simple fact that vulnerable road users aren’t going to be safe,if they don’t show extreme respect and caution around traffic on the roads,to the point where we reverse the bs idea that drivers will always be able to see and protect such vulnerable road users. :unamused:

Guess what Carryfast you ain’t the only one and shock horror…so do I use them same roads you do, my friends on here do, my friends not on here do and wow so does my Dad :open_mouth:

And people getting run over ain’t a PC zb up thing either…guess what bud its actually been happening since the advent of motor vehicles unfortunately. I never said anyone was going to be safe either my comment was we have to respect each other and try and keep each other safe.

What’s really wrong with that thought in common sense, in a modern society like ours, that you continually prattle on about there’s not enough of?

Here’s a bizarre concept, you’re just going to have to accept whilst being a “professional driver” You have to share the roads with lots of different road users. And unfortunately out of pure curteousy you have to respect them and their short comings, that’s your’s and our reality and a common decency of trying not to kill people and accept that humans do make mistakes…and lots of them.

Be a man and accept that! :imp:

where we reverse the bs idea that drivers will always be able to see and protect such vulnerable road users.

You can’t be that much of an old school driver as I thought. As all the old boys including those who have retired or even departed now, who I knew drove lorries. Have always said to me, “you have a responsibility there kid, make sure you respect that and always be careful and ensure you expect the unexpected, as it will always happen as night turns to day, eyes in the back of your head etc” and all that ■■■■■■■■.

So how come, you as one of the next generation to them, seems to think that mantra shouldn’t apply to you anymore, like it did to them and quite a lot of us now. What makes you so special that you expect London should be put in lockdown when you’re on the roads… :question:

C

The bit that those old school drivers seemed to have forgotten to tell you was the difference in that regime,as I’ve described,as it applied to the vulnerable road users in question.The bit about drivers responsibility only went as far as I’ve said being the limits of what is actually possible then or now.The difference is that then those vulnerable road users knew those limits and acted accordingly.While you seem to be judging what they told you by the PC standards of today instead of those at the time.Here’s a clue there were very few ‘traffic calming’ measures and the 30 mph limit in town was generally treated as a guideline by all concerned including trucks and buses and vulnerable road users were under far more responsibility for their own safety around traffic.The fact is the average cyclist or pedestrian of today wouldn’t have lasted a week under the conditions that applied during the 1960’s/70’s.

30

I’m hardly surprised, last time i was in London the pavements were so jammed with people i found myself having to keep stepping into the road just to get past people. I felt sorry for the bus drivers on Oxford Street, they were getting nowhere because of the amount of people spilling into the road

Comparison with New York where jaywalking is illegal, the difference is night and day