I have seen/heard some trainers say they teach to drive and not just to pass the test so I have a question …
In the relatively short time the trainee has for LGV training how this be the case?
I can see how a little more can be put into the training above the minimum required for test but I fail to see how much more than that can be done when it takes quite a number of weeks or months to get a driver to improve their general everyday standard of driving
This might end up being a long thread 
I’ll have to give this a bit of consideration before I respond properly. But, in the meantime, one of my pet hatreds is when a candidate asks a question to be given the replies “you’ll fail your test if you do/don’t do that”. “that’s what’s wanted on test” “you wont do it like that in the real world”.
All that drives me mad and is the sign of a poor instructor. There should always be a more constructive answer on offer - - or the trainer should consider the matter he is dealing with more carefully.
I trained an instructor some time ago and he informed me (I was the student) that I had to check over my shoulder because I’d fail my test if I didn’t. Which, of course, is true. But it also implies that, having passed the test, I can now abandon that check.
So my point is that by giving proper explanation at the point of training, we can set the correct actions in motion for the “real world”.
Not much of my training relates soley to the test. I feel sorry for those folks who pay to learn how to pass a test but are then totally ill-equipped for work.
Another example is CE training on w+d. When I do this myself, I’ll call into a truckstop, find an artic and explain the differences - particularly with the coupling and uncoupling. One friendly driver - a former trainee - at the Stockyard (nr Doncaster) left his keys with me so we could couple and uncouple his trailer whilst he had breakfast. I wouldn’t have to do this to get my candidate through his test.
I understand what ROG is getting at; it takes much longer than a week or so for someone to totally learn how to do the job. But I think my response goes some little way towards explaining my position.
Pete 
I am going to be totally honest on this.
My main priority is for the candidate to pass the test. To achieve this I train to the standard required and train round the test routes so when the candidate is on test he is familiar with the roads which gives them confidence.
Now the trucks are part loaded, gone has the argument of passing without a load on, so yes a bit more realistic now.
Because truck driving covers many fields (skips, tippers, hiabs, transporters, general haulage, dustbin truck etc) it is impossible to train a driver unless they train on that type of vehicle.
So just to sum up I will help you get your licence in which you have shown the examiner you have demonstrated a good standard of driving a truck.
After this keep your driving to test standard and you are on your way to becoming a good professional truck driver.
You will never stop learning though.
This reply is written with honesty.
Paul 
The reality is that as a trainer you only have a very short time to prepare the candidate for the test day.
Peter Smythe:
one of my pet hatreds is when a candidate asks a question to be given the replies “you’ll fail your test if you do/don’t do that”. “that’s what’s wanted on test” “you wont do it like that in the real world”.
I totally agree Pete. The best way to expain a point is to give the candidate the reason why something should be done in a certain way. For example:
Peter Smythe:
I had to check over my shoulder because I’d fail my test if I didn’t.
It is far better to explain that perhaps a pedestrian or cyclist has moved to underneath the driver’s window and may not be visible in the mirror blind spot so a physical check is required. This covers both the need to do it for the test as well as expaining why it is needed throughout his driving career.
Of course the candidate’s main priority is actually passing the test. There is no point being a great driver without the licence. I would say however that by the time somebody reaches a standard good enough to pass they are fairly competent to drive a truck.
In reply to the thread’s question “Pass Test and or teach to Drive” my answer is that a good trainer will aim for both. There are aspects of the training that are totally geared towards the test, for example the reversing manouevre. I personally never set up a different additional exercise to practice on to make the candidate more proficient at reversing and have never heard of any trainer doing so prior to passing the test but generally most points are geared towards both passing as well as actually teaching correct truck driving techniques.
I offer the following thoughts as a “customer” - someone who has paid a great deal of my own money in the last year to obtain Cats C & CE.
I can see what each of the contributors is saying. There is very little time on a course to do anything other than stick closely to the DSA syllabus. However, the syllabus itself is designed to cover all the basic skills, aptitudes and understanding that a new LGV driver needs. Having demonstrated these to the satisfaction of an Examiner, a new driver should be able to go out and safely develop more experience.
What I would expect, though, is that any instructor should try to do is help the trainee to understand WHY the syllabus includes and insists on a particular skill, behaviour or exercise.
So, in that sense, all the trainers on this thread are justified in holding the views they have expressed.
Passing in a W+D and being able to drive a tractor/trailer combination has always been something I’ve been against. (I understand the reasons behind training schools using W+D’s)
The other thing I find strange is test routes. Showing someone how to behave on certain road knowing they’re what you will be tested on should be stopped. Out in the ‘real world’ drivers are often faced with unfamiliar roads and how you deal with it mentally is just as important as your road positioning.
I was lucky enough to have 3 very good instructors (PCV C2 and C1) they were all very experienced and spent a lot of the time together talking about their experiences and theories of driving and other aspects of the job and vehicles. It works both ways though and the most experienced helpful instructor stands no chance helping someone who’s so nervous driving around that they’re not listening, or they’re not very intelligent, or they have no interest in the industry so don’t care.
You can’t deny that training to pass the test only exists as training schools take much pride in their pass rates (we had two instructors here the other day discussing this) but to be honest, these same trainers take the time to come on here in a non commercial capacity to help others. It’s probably the trainers who don’t help in this way that are the type that only want the pass and don’t care about teaching anything else.
As a customer I payed quite a bit for my licences now tbh I am not that interested in the fact you spent x many years in the forces you have this & that pension or what you have done since it is about me wanting to learn how to drive safely & correct
Tell me why you are supposed to do things a certain way not just because it say so I have already passed my car ( & bike 7.5t on grandfather rights ) ok a long time ago & yep back then you did learn to pass then learn to drive but as an already car driver just upgrading my licence to cover a large vehicle the instruction should be of such
The main thing I would say you need to learn in no particular order is road positioning breaking more mirrors reaction time gears still dont agree with auto & get full licence ( as only last year I was driving 1 which had gears on a regular basis & have since driven them make a nice change tbh although in an auto Scania I did stall it but it is an auto with a clutch with you use when you stop & start the company that has these do so for a reason & are mainly used for a articular job & are plated at 50 t )
No reason to stay in area for your test I didnt & there are many others do the same there are advantages to both I didnt tell anyone so no pressure which suited me did learn new roads that I may not have know which yep has stood me since
So really you should have a bit of both learning to pass & teaching to drive not easy getting the right balance as we are all different
Passing the test is the real priority, a driver starts to learn to drive when he is in the real world, he cannot do this until he has passed the test, it just comes with experience and that is one thing that cannot be taught during training. Some drivers have a natural aptitude towards truck driving, others will just cope with it.
In my opinion a driver should have to do so many hours of practical training towards gaining a license, say 40 proven training hours that would take in all road types and count towards say 75% of a test pass, the final test should merely be a quick drive with an examiner to see that the driver is competent in the vehicle class he has been taught in, an examiner can tell competence within minutes of setting off on the test, just my opinion but more road experience would make better drivers.
Right then I’ve slept on this topic:
I believe if every truck driver drove like they were on their test there would be a lot less accidents on our roads.
I believe it would hard to argue with this statement.
Paul
elmet training:
Right then I’ve slept on this topic:I believe if every truck driver drove like they were on their test there would be a lot less accidents on our roads.
I believe it would hard to argue with this statement.
Paul
Hmmm … Personally and according to at least one major insurer, LGV drivers are on a par in general with advanced drivers.
as with all groups of drivers there will be some numpties
ROG:
elmet training:
Right then I’ve slept on this topic:I believe if every truck driver drove like they were on their test there would be a lot less accidents on our roads.
I believe it would hard to argue with this statement.
Paul
Hmmm … Personally and according to at least one major insurer, LGV drivers are on a par in general with advanced drivers.
as with all groups of drivers there will be some numpties
Your missing my point Rog.
Test driving standard probably goes out the window after passing.
Paul
I think that its probably more realistic to say that drivers develop their own safe style after passing a basic test of competence
I can drive to the style that the DSA want but my own style is far more flexible and SAFER than their style allowing for better safer progress as well as smoothness whilst being systematic
Having assisted many LGV drivers towards the Advanced test I know how close they are in styles of driving
ROG:
I think that its probably more realistic to say that drivers develop their own safe style after passing a basic test of competenceI can drive to the style that the DSA want but my own style is far more flexible and SAFER than their style allowing for better safer progress as well as smoothness whilst being systematic
Having assisted many LGV drivers towards the Advanced test I know how close they are in styles of driving
You can adopt your own safe style of driving but the essential criteria of the test requirements must not be neglected, ie mirrors, indicators, use of speed etc.
Paul
elmet training:
You can adopt your own safe style of driving but the essential criteria of the test requirements must not be neglected, ie mirrors, indicators, use of speed etc.Paul
Agree
I’m not really qualified or as experienced as the guys above on the subject of training students , but as my instructor said ,Tom I’m not here to teach you how to drive you can already do that , reading signs ,using indicators using mirrors observing and knowing speed limits you should already be doing these things , I’m here to Train you on a larger vehicle and hone the skills that you already have , although in the real world we all drive in auto pilot driving from point A to point B locally we just know where we’re supposed to be and get to , do we really observe the signs the 20 near the school or have we passed then said to ourselves was the 20 flashing light on ,other things on our mind, that’s how we probably drive our cars , when I drive a lorry I’m a completely different driver , observation goes up checking mirrors every few seconds always use the indicators blind spots checked ,don’t know the reason for that may be Pete or one of the other trainers could give me a view on this .
Sorry, not sure what I’m meant to comment on!
Give it another go and I’ll do my best.
Pete
thomasb9295:
when I drive a lorry I’m a completely different driver , observation goes up checking mirrors every few seconds always use the indicators blind spots checked ,don’t know the reason for that may be Pete or one of the other trainers could give me a view on this .
I think where your coming from is that your probably more mindful about the greater spacial area your taking whilst driving a truck compared with a car, so naturally you are more cautious especially in a built up area.
Paul
I think where your coming from is that your probably more mindful about the greater spacial area your taking whilst driving a truck compared with a car, so naturally you are more cautious especially in a built up area.
I was thinking he meant something like that.
If there is that much difference between his car driving and truck driving, maybe it’s worth looking at the standard of car driving. It’s possibly got a bit lax?
Passengers in my car comment occasionally that I drive it like a truck. I think that’s a compliment - but I’m not sure! The mirror checks, shoulder checks and so on are there no matter what I’m driving.
I’m not perfect - but I do take a pride in driving properly. That doesn’t mean slowly. I spent 4 years on Eastern Euro work and I spent a time on tippers so I don’t hang around. But it can be done with a certain amount of finesse. And that’s what I like. Some of this comes with experience but a lot of it comes with the attitude to make as nice a job as possible of the job in hand. Each to their own - but that’s what floats my particular boat. And if I can get trainees to adopt that attitude, I’m on a real winner when it comes to the test which demands a much lower standard.
Pete
Peter Smythe:
Sorry, not sure what I’m meant to comment on!Give it another go and I’ll do my best.
Pete
Mostly about training drivers Pete rather than teaching driving ,as we are already drivers in one form or another , and just learning a larger vehicle , all I was saying really was my instructor was pointing out I could already drive , I should already know the basics of driving , was just wanting your view on training drivers than teaching driving , I know what I’m trying to say typing it comes out slightly different lol
Peter Smythe:
I think where your coming from is that your probably more mindful about the greater spacial area your taking whilst driving a truck compared with a car, so naturally you are more cautious especially in a built up area.
I was thinking he meant something like that.
If there is that much difference between his car driving and truck driving, maybe it’s worth looking at the standard of car driving. It’s possibly got a bit lax?
Passengers in my car comment occasionally that I drive it like a truck. I think that’s a compliment - but I’m not sure! The mirror checks, shoulder checks and so on are there no matter what I’m driving.
I’m not perfect - but I do take a pride in driving properly. That doesn’t mean slowly. I spent 4 years on Eastern Euro work and I spent a time on tippers so I don’t hang around. But it can be done with a certain amount of finesse. And that’s what I like. Some of this comes with experience but a lot of it comes with the attitude to make as nice a job as possible of the job in hand. Each to their own - but that’s what floats my particular boat. And if I can get trainees to adopt that attitude, I’m on a real winner when it comes to the test which demands a much lower standard.
Pete
Bearing in mind that I passed my car test in 1982 , so probably picked up bad habits along the way to my hgv training 31yrs later with just 3.5t & 7.5t experience in between , most 3.5t vans drive like cars with smaller steering wheels and gear sticks on dashboards rather than old type vans , my instructor for my hgv training had to knock the bad habits out early doors , basically retraining rather than teaching me to drive .