.
There’s no need for any discussion about it. There is no shortage and she is just representing her brokerage company so it’s clear she’s only doing it for self-serving VI reasons and most likely doesn’t give a ■■■■ about the average pay and conditions.
I havn’t seen any decent companies with trucks standing because they can’t get drivers, maybe she means there is a monkey shortage to go with the peanut wage brigade. Having said that if she wants to get out there and see for herself… 
N0rbert:
There is a general idea that the costs associated with acquiring an HGV licence, be that Cat C or higher, range somewhere from £3,000 to £5,000. In fact, the reality is that the costs are often considerably lower.During the House of Commons session, Springle made clear that a new candidate could in fact qualify as a professional Class 2 Heavy goods driver for less than £2,000.
Bridging the Gap Between Training and Employment[…]
She pointed out that one of the biggest obstacles faced by new drivers is the need to gain 2 years’ driving experience. It’s the classic chicken and egg situation of needing a job to gain experience but not able to get one because of the experience they lack. Springle made the case that the HGV driver shortage could be at least partially improved if these drivers were able to go into the work immediately.
[…]
Of the average HGV trainee, typically 25-40 year old males from low paid or under-employed backgrounds (although by no means exclusively so) the abundance of work and the prospect of career stability and progression into other areas of logistics which exists as a pathway from HGV training is a message that seems to be attractive enough to encourage them in, in improving numbers.
When you look at prices I’d say £2,000 (or maybe £3,000) is probably about right for the training itself - certainly not £5,000 unless they saw you coming (or you need twice the normal training).
But if you’re working, then you have to forfeit your wages for the training period (or quit your job if the boss ain’t sympathetic) - so there’s some element of lost wages. Unless you’re unemployed, but then you’ve got to find £2-3k without an income (and be willing to spend it).
Then there’s always the risk you won’t pass or won’t like it.
And if you do get your licence, you’ve virtually no chance of walking into a job - especially if you’re already employed and not immediately available for assessments and interviews. And if you do get a job, it will be on crap pay (probably less than you get for shelf-stacking) doing what nobody else is willing to do. Your social life will end - and so might your home life, with 15 hour days being normal. You’d have to be mad.
As for “the abundance of work”, “stability” and “career progression”, they must be joking.
How many times has it been posted that some keen young thing has spent thousands of his own hard earned pounds only to find that he can’t get a job cos he has no experience
I was talking to my son’s mate (who is 20) at weekend. He works at a local Co-op shelf stacking and till work.
He will be getting a pay rise in April due to the living wage increase. He will be on 3 pence an hour more than me. I often see him at the bus stop ready to get to work, five hours after I have started work at silly O’clock.
The rates of pay for drivers is ridiculous.
These two guys in the video are putting across a good case but I feel it’s just a waste of bottled water and electricity for the lights.
Roll on 6 years till the mortgage is paid off.
Carryfast:
Generally the bs pecking order issue applies regardless of even whether anyone already has their van and 7.5 tonner experience regardless.The truth is the industry has historically applied a pecking order in which ‘experienced’ drivers expect all the best work and want it reserved for them at the expense of new drivers.In addition to the equally unfair situation in which a new driver has gone through all the van and 7.5 tonner progression you’ve referred to but still gets lumbered with all the zb work.In an industry in which historically career progression and who gets to do what is just a lottery.
If there is any value at all in driving a van or 7.5t, it is for a couple of months tops, no more than that. Any more, and it’s a carrot on a stick in front of the donkey - you could drive a van for 10 years and it will teach you nothing about driving an artic. Even a 7.5t bears little resemblance to larger rigids - they used to give away 7.5t licences with the car test!
I could be just about persuaded that a few months on a large rigid is good preparation for an artic - this is all I ever did.
Places that say otherwise are just trying to get crap jobs done for a pittance by the gullible.
robroy:
Maybe the Government should look at the reasons rather than the cure for the effects of their actions.
I notice on all of these committees, studies, lectures etc that the one group that they don’t ask their opinions of are the very people who can answer their questions - but that would give them answers they don’t want.
The authorities never ask why there is a shortage of 50,000 HGV drivers.
They never ask why, if there is a shortage, all the goods are being delivered and the shelves are full.
If there were a shortage supply and demand would kick in, rates would rise, t’s and c’s would improve and the bottom end of the industry would fall apart.
They never ask why because it suits their purpose not to ask why.
I’m inclined to agree with the concept that “Easy as HGV” are the winners of bollockspeak merit here.
The problem that firms have these days is that THEY do not want to do the training in-house themselves. If you want a job driving a truck you need that licence already. There is a shortage of fit, amenable young folk with 5 years experience and zero endorsements out there, so you see an agency, who may or may not palm you off with the next bod that walked through their door rather than should have been sent through yours.
I got my licence originally “in house”, and was obliged to stick around about 5 years after passing, which seemed reasonable to do, what with a recession on at the time. My contemporaries that did leave after a minimal amount of time - went onto jobs like “Night Tipper Work” for the highway agency. I assume the money for this was pretty decent, as I never heard any complaints!
If you have nothing but a car licence to start with, then I would argue that it WILL cost you around the £3-5k figure mentioned above. You not only have to pass your test the first time, but you also have to pass on C2 before you get a shot at artics as I understand it these days. I didn’t have to pass anything other than C+E back in 1991. There were no duties involving artics for such a junior as me though, so I ended up doing rigids around London Stations for the first five years of holding a C+E licence.
There are LOADS of vacancies around these days for C2 drivers (12t-26t rigids) in and around London. Not just on agency, but as actual full time jobs. They pay gap between C2 and C1 has narrowed considerably as well.
There are not many jobs on C+E nights (which I like) because these jobs have a “dead man’s shoes” thing about them.
I’m still one of the youngest drivers when I find myself mingling with full time night artic driver Brits. Sure, there are some younger guys there, but they tend to be Eastern European, or “my side of 40” at least.
It’s getting the experience after passing that you’ll spend a lot of money getting done. You’ll only find job offers from the low payers alas… Whatever differential under the actual “going rate” they pay - compounds the losses of course, as does doing more than a flat hourly week every week (eg. 48 hours on duty per week)
So… One might find themselves passing C2, then C1 both first time, then working at some outfit like PolyPipe for a couple of years to get your experience - then you can write your own ticket. £2 per hour less for a 50 hour week loses you a total of £10,400 over the two years, albeit that is “Gross”. One can knock that down a bit if you have less than a basic rate tax liability, which one might actually have - if getting the work through an agency initially (temp to perm or placement)
That’s a lot of dough to lose through the backdoor isn’t it? - AND this assumes you pass both C2 and C1 FIRST TIME don’t forget! The course and test fees are into four figures too… I could tentatively say “£3000-£5000 is only the half of it” which makes more sense when you look at my other £10,400 figure shown above eh?
Talking to University students who say they “like driving” and the question pops up from me "Ever considered training to drive a truck?" - The first argument thrown in my face isn’t “How expensive is the course?” or even “How much do YOU get paid?” - It’s “I’ve heard contracted hours of less than 48 are rare. Is that true?” - to which I sadly say “The higher hourly rate employers will restrict your hours down, with the low payers wanting as many hours out of you as possible”. Expect to be called in for lots of flat shifts at the better payers, but asked to do lots of “working late on days” (paid right through at day rate) when working for the nasty low hourly rates that proliferate…
…I add that you can’t easily get into the “higher hourly rate firms” straight out of HGV school either!
I reckon that if all drivers understood basic PHYSICS - we might all be a lot better at driving on the whole too!
Another pitfall is that I feel it is WRONG for a “training school” to charge megabucks to the individual - and then send them straight to the jobcentre when qualified!
In my mind, the trainer should be the employer. 
Rjan:
If there is any value at all in driving a van or 7.5t, it is for a couple of months tops, no more than that. Any more, and it’s a carrot on a stick in front of the donkey - you could drive a van for 10 years and it will teach you nothing about driving an artic. Even a 7.5t bears little resemblance to larger rigids - they used to give away 7.5t licences with the car test!I could be just about persuaded that a few months on a large rigid is good preparation for an artic - this is all I ever did.
Places that say otherwise are just trying to get crap jobs done for a pittance by the gullible.
There are loads of different variations on that theme.In many cases as I said there’s the other example of ‘experienced’ drivers in the right type of work want to keep it for themselves and not have to compete with new drivers for it.Which can apply right across the different vehicle types to the point where the ‘right’ rigid work can be more coveted than the wrong artic work.Especially in the case of when class 3 and 2 also covered drawbars.In general the idea of start at the bottom and accept all the zb is just a carrot meant for the mugs.In my case absolutely I started driving a 7.5 tonner on my car licence at 18 before I got my class 2 at 21.In which that and driving everything up to 38 tonner rigid fire trucks as a works driver and up to 24 tonner Gritters as a council driver counted for absolutely nothing when going for Class 2,in the day,international drawbar work for example.
Carl Usher:
There’s no need for any discussion about it. There is no shortage and she is just representing her brokerage company so it’s clear she’s only doing it for self-serving VI reasons and most likely doesn’t give a ■■■■ about the average pay and conditions.
Carl Usher:
There’s no need for any discussion about it. There is no shortage and she is just representing her brokerage company so it’s clear she’s only doing it for self-serving VI reasons and most likely doesn’t give a ■■■■ about the average pay and conditions.
Exactly. If there was a shortage then the wages would go up until sufficient people wanted to do the job, and then there wouldn’t be a shortage any more.
People are unwilling to spend £3,000 to get a £7.50 an hour job. I think that falls into the “No crap, Sherlock” category.
Carryfast:
truckman020:
accessible,realistic and ultimately rewarding for the individual and the nation as a whole she says,how is it rewarding,certainly not wages wise as regards the nation as a whole they still treat hgv drivers like 2nd class citizens,or have I read it wrong,she also says new passes have the skill to do the job,after one/two weeks intensive training,i don’t think so,if I owned a company I would not send a new pass out in a vehicle that could be worth thousands [inc load]he/she would start on the vans and see how they go,[accident wise]its learning to trust and I am sure that’s how a lot of drivers started out driving vans and working up to hgvs,i didGenerally the bs pecking order issue applies regardless of even whether anyone already has their van and 7.5 tonner experience regardless.The truth is the industry has historically applied a pecking order in which ‘experienced’ drivers expect all the best work and want it reserved for them at the expense of new drivers.In addition to the equally unfair situation in which a new driver has gone through all the van and 7.5 tonner progression you’ve referred to but still gets lumbered with all the zb work.In an industry in which historically career progression and who gets to do what is just a lottery.
As for rewarding for its workers and the nation yeah right that’s why the government is doing everything possible to shift as much freight as possible from road to rail.In this case using road fuel taxation etc to do it with every pound lost in tax meaning less money available for driver wages and loss of customer demand meaning less job opportunities for new drivers.
+1,mind you I should have also said when I mentioned vans that it depends on if the company run vans,a lot don’t and rely on subbies
There’s a shortage of people that don’t need training - because they have experience.
There’s plenty of people who’d grab a job if it were not for the fact they need 2 years experience doing the job they have not got yet…
Third-party trainers don’t count as experience.
So… Any news on these apprentice things? If “on the job training” is a must to have as ‘experience’ - then who’s actually doing that these days?
Winseer:
There’s a shortage of people that don’t need training - because they have experience.There’s plenty of people who’d grab a job if it were not for the fact they need 2 years experience doing the job they have not got yet…
Third-party trainers don’t count as experience.
So… Any news on these apprentice things? If “on the job training” is a must to have as ‘experience’ - then who’s actually doing that these days?
Not formal training but my son and his pal passed their C last year. Son started driving for ATL (Carlisle) through agency back in November and has been offered full-time, which he’s seriously thinking about. His pal started in there in January and has just gone full-time. Think where they score is both lads are grafters and prepared to put in the hours. I’ve been pretty impressed by ATL’s attitude so far, pay isn’t great but not bad for noobs looking to get a start, and better than many places.
chicane:
Winseer:
There’s a shortage of people that don’t need training - because they have experience.There’s plenty of people who’d grab a job if it were not for the fact they need 2 years experience doing the job they have not got yet…
Third-party trainers don’t count as experience.
So… Any news on these apprentice things? If “on the job training” is a must to have as ‘experience’ - then who’s actually doing that these days?
Not formal training but my son and his pal passed their C last year. Son started driving for ATL (Carlisle) through agency back in November and has been offered full-time, which he’s seriously thinking about. His pal started in there in January and has just gone full-time. Think where they score is both lads are grafters and prepared to put in the hours. I’ve been pretty impressed by ATL’s attitude so far, pay isn’t great but not bad for noobs looking to get a start, and better than many places.
The problem is that not everyone is a “grafter” as defined by this industry - not even close.
It can sound mild to talk about 15 hour work days, but when you bring it home to people that you’re going to be at work ready to start at 8am in the morning, and you’re going to finish at 11pm at night, most people ask whether it is even legal.
Add into the mix 5 or even 6-day working, the weekend working, wildly varying start and end times involving unsociable hours, lack of social contact, disruption of home life, and the fact that many driving jobs involve a good dose of hard manual labour, and people might say “well, you’d only do that for good money”.
And when you tell them that most jobs for new drivers (often defined as anyone under 25 or without 2 years at that class, and sometimes defined as under 30 without 5 years at that class), if you can even get a job, will expect to pay £7-8 an hour on an agency (with the conditions mentioned above all sitting at the most extreme end), that’s when people are convinced you’re leading them up the garden path.
It doesn’t make sense to enter this industry - the bar is simply set at a Stakhanovite level which most mere mortals can never reach. If you’ve got some gumption and some hard work in you, and can tolerate the other elements of the lifestyle, you could do better offshore, or on the railways, or similar. And most people in this game seem to have no perspective on how extreme working conditions really have become - even experienced guys in better jobs are getting no more their just deserts, certainly not money for old rope.
Juddian:
Has that ‘‘Operations Director’’ Kat Springle left school yet.
Guilty thoughts?
There is no shortage of inept drivers and bottom end £8.00 an hour employers, the shortage is of competent drivers and good employers.
It is as simple as that.
Don’t forget that a “Grafter” is someone who’ll work many hours for minimum wage in some areas, but someone who’ll perform an “intense job” like Inner-City multidrop in other areas.
I find for myself that buggering about with artics in country lanes doing farm work is “hard graft” from a driving perspective.
I’ve done multidrop, and remain only slightly negative about it. Most of my dislike for multidrop comes from it being on day/early shifts that I never liked.
Working 55+ hours per week on near-minimum wages using POA to assist the employer to remain legal… 
- Now that in my mind isn’t “hard graft” - It’s more like “Hard-of-thinking”. 
Round here a grafter is someone who is prepared to put in a good days work and get the job done in exchange for decent pay.