Thanks for the replys. So how would this one work. coffeeholic touched on it ,
A driver at our place got held up & ran out of the 10 hour night rule, he rang depot from Sandbach services & they sent out a car with 2 drivers, he came back to Skelmersdale as a passenger & the company told him it was ok to do this as it is classed as P.O.A, I said you are still in a company vehicle so it must be classed as other work, he got back on a total of 14 hour night.He was not free to dispose of this time as stated by the w.t.d, so he must still have been at work till he clocked off back at the depot. So who is right, is it p.o.a or other work 
. I know what i think, —its other work-- 
VOSA definitely count that as Other Work under the tacho rules but it seems under the WTD it would be POA. As long as he still has duty time available to him for that day it doesn’t really matter what he counts it as, except with regards to how many hours he has worked that week. It only becomes an issue if he has no duty time left, or during the drive back to base he runs out of duty time because POA or Other Work he is still on duty and will have committed an offence by exceeding his duty time.
Correct me If I’m wrong but wouldn’t this be the same as being a second driver which unless I’m mistaken is classed as POA when not driving.
Dont for get he has done his 10 hour night & cant do anymore work, & therefore he should not be on P.O.A as he really should now be on rest.I think he should have to sleep in cab or get home by none company owned transport
hal56:
Dont for get he has done his 10 hour night & cant do anymore work, & therefore he should not be on P.O.A as he really should now be on rest.I think he should have to sleep in cab or get home by none company owned transport
POA doesn’t count toward the 10 hour night working calculation. Driving home from the point he ran out of time will not be regarded as rest regardless of who owns the vehicle or whether he is driving or being driven.
do answer this fully we need to know what the hold up was…was the driver on rest at RDC or POA
10hrs work now means 10 hrs work not booking time just cos your on duty
Driving home from the point he ran out of time will not be regarded as rest regardless of who owns the vehicle or whether he is driving or being driven.
My understanding of the rule was that if they had sent one driver out in a company car it would have been legal IF he was able to do what he wanted - ie drive home, and go to bed, then drive in for his next shift in the morning. Because they sent someone to drive him back (presumably to the depot/base) then he wasn’t free to do what he wanted…
… or is that wrong ■■
G
hal56:
A driver at our place got held up & ran out of the 10 hour night rule, he rang depot from Sandbach services & they sent out a car with 2 drivers, he came back to Skelmersdale as a passenger & the company told him it was ok to do this as it is classed as P.O.A, I said you are still in a company vehicle so it must be classed as other work, he got back on a total of 14 hour night.
Looking at the timings I find it hard to believe he ran out of time with regards to the 10 hour night rule. You say his total shift was 14 hours but waiting at Sandbach for the car to arrive and the travelling time back to the depot would account for some of this time along with breaks totalling at least 45 minutes as required by the WTD because his shift was more than 9 hours. He wouldn’t need much more in the way of POA or breaks to bring that below the 10 hours…
Gazzareth:
Driving home from the point he ran out of time will not be regarded as rest regardless of who owns the vehicle or whether he is driving or being driven.
My understanding of the rule was that if they had sent one driver out in a company car it would have been legal IF he was able to do what he wanted - ie drive home, and go to bed, then drive in for his next shift in the morning. Because they sent someone to drive him back (presumably to the depot/base) then he wasn’t free to do what he wanted…
… or is that wrong ■■
G
Driving to or from your home to a place other than your normal operating base will always be regarded by VOSA as Other Work under the tacho rules, and this applies regardless of whether you are being paid for that time or not. Who owns the vehicle or who is driving it makes no difference.
FAQ’s 20, 21 and 22 HERE explain it.
A driver at our place got held up & ran out of the 10 hour night rule
is this a workplace agreement,i.e to only work 10 hour nights.
he rang depot from Sandbach services & they sent out a car with 2 drivers, he came back to Skelmersdale as a passenger
so he knew he was short on time and decided to ring the company when his 10 hours were up
he got back on a total of 14 hour night
the maths dont add up surely it cant take much more then a hour from sandbach to skem so i make that 2 hours there and back. so it took the company 2 hours to get drivers and car together 
.
as before he knew there was going to be a delay its poa or very much break whilst waiting forthe lift to arrive which doesnt count towards you daily rtd time
jon
jonboy:
A driver at our place got held up & ran out of the 10 hour night rule
is this a workplace agreement,i.e to only work 10 hour nights.
jon
By law you can only do 10 hours on nights unless the workforce have agreed to waive this rule in which case you can do the 15 hours or whatever the agreement allows.
tachograph:
jonboy:
A driver at our place got held up & ran out of the 10 hour night rule
is this a workplace agreement,i.e to only work 10 hour nights.
jonBy law you can only do 10 hours on nights unless the workforce have agreed to waive this rule in which case you can do the 15 hours or whatever the agreement allows.
But neither breaks nor POA count toward the ten hours so you can still possibly do up to 15, or even 16 hours. I did at least 13.5 hours every night last week.
Coffeeholic:
But neither breaks nor POA count toward the ten hours so you can still possibly do up to 15, or even 16 hours. I did at least 13.5 hours every night last week.
And besides, you’re self employed so getting the entire workforce of one person to agree to waive the rule shouldn’t be too tricky if you decide you want to 
Paul
repton:
Coffeeholic:
But neither breaks nor POA count toward the ten hours so you can still possibly do up to 15, or even 16 hours. I did at least 13.5 hours every night last week.And besides, you’re self employed so getting the entire workforce of one person to agree to waive the rule shouldn’t be too tricky if you decide you want to
Paul
Doesn’t make me exempt from the WTD Paul. It used to but not since I packed in as an OD. To be exempt you have to have an O Licence and your main business must be road transport for hire and reward, neither of which are true any more, so I am supposed to follow the WTD regs. As far as the the night time agreement goes I guess as an agency driver I would have to comply with whatever the rule was at the company I was working in.
The driver did not do any POA at all that night, his total work time was 10 hours + his 45 min break.We are not opted out as group so must only work 10 hours.
he rang depot at some point & told them he would not be able to make it back to the depot before his 10 hour work time limit was up, they said how far back to the depot could he get & thats why he only got to Sandbach.
Surly he could not come back from their as a passenger on POA, as POA states that he must be available to resume or start work, He can not resume or start work as he a has reached his 10 hour limit, so he can not use POA and say it wont count as work time, & so it must be classed as other work.
Coffeeholic:
As far as the the night time agreement goes I guess as an agency driver I would have to comply with whatever the rule was at the company I was working in.
Hmm, I guess you have to wonder how “workforce” is defined for WTD purposes. You could argue that anyone who does any work for the company is part of the workforce, or you could argue that as a contractor you are a supplier (of driving services) and not part of the workforce and therefore entitled to decide for yourself if you wish to be exempt from the 10h rule or not.
If you go by the first rule, do you then also class the drivers of a subcontract haulier as part of the workforce and therefore also subject to the company rule? Where is the line drawn?
Paul
hal56:
The driver did not do any POA at all that night, his total work time was 10 hours + his 45 min break.
If he hit Sandbach exactly 10 hours and 45 minutes after he started work then I guess under the WTD 10 hour night thing he was screwed. He couldn’t go back to the depot because he had zero time left for clocking off. If he had just a minute or two left of those 10 hours and 45 minutes then it could be argued he is on POA as he will be available to resume work to clock off. However it could also be argued that he wasn’t on POA as he didn’t know the length of the period, and three and a quarter hours seems to be longer than you would expect for that.
He was still legal under the tacho rules so I don’t see it as that big an issue personally.
Just as a matter of interest what makes up the 10 hours? How much driving and does he load and unload his own trailers? Unless there were exceptional circumstances that night, such as longer than normal traffic delays, it seems that run is scheduled a bit tight and might need looking at given that your depot enforce the 10 hour night rule.
repton:
Coffeeholic:
As far as the the night time agreement goes I guess as an agency driver I would have to comply with whatever the rule was at the company I was working in.Hmm, I guess you have to wonder how “workforce” is defined for WTD purposes. You could argue that anyone who does any work for the company is part of the workforce, or you could argue that as a contractor you are a supplier (of driving services) and not part of the workforce and therefore entitled to decide for yourself if you wish to be exempt from the 10h rule or not.
It could also be argued that as an agency driver it is whether the agency have opted out or not that would count. It’s irrelevant as far as I am concerned as I just ignore the 10 hour thing anyway. I have no idea if the places I work at night have an opt out agreement or not, I just assume they do. It is also quite difficult to actually clock 10 hours work on the night shifts I do by the time breaks are taken into consideration. A 13.5 hour night shift for DHL doing Hatfield to Coalville twice is actually less then 10 hours work.