I can’t find any clarification on this in the rules and regs!
If you drive off road all day then the activity is out of scope.
But if you start on the highway and then go off road and stay off for the rest of the day can you still count the off road part of the day as out of scope?
If you start on the highway, go off road and then come back on the highway can you count the off road bit as out of scope?
Cheers
Flipper
My understanding…which is probably too simplistic…
You say “out of scope”, so presumably you are one of these Drivers' hours: Exemptions from EU law - GOV.UK and therefore come under domestic rules.
Domestic rules do mention driving on and off the public road. GB Domestic Rules | Transports Friend
In any working day the maximum amount of driving permitted is 10 hours. The daily driving limit applies to driving on and off the public road. Off-road driving for the purposes of agriculture, quarrying, forestry, building work or civil engineering counts as duty rather than driving time.
Can you describe what sort of work you do and why you are out of scope? If the on-road part is not out of scope, then it gets messy, and this page might help: Driving Regulations & Rules - GB & EU | Transports Friend
the easiest way to explain it is like this,
if any part of your journey is conducted on road then all of that journey even if some of it takes part off road is under e.u. regulations.
once you have finished that journey i.e from A to B where B is off road. Now if you then start a second journey from B to C where non of the journey is conducted on the public highway you can set your tacho to “out of scope”.
I use it from time to time as we have a site that we work out of and we move loads around the site internally, once I get there and tip the load I have brought in and go around to load the internal load I set the tacho to out of scope, i may move 2 or 3 loads on site, as soon as I have finished the last load and before I load the next load I am taking out I set the tacho back to in scope. Hope this helps 
wildfire:
the easiest way to explain it is like this,
if any part of your journey is conducted on road then all of that journey even if some of it takes part off road is under e.u. regulations.
once you have finished that journey i.e from A to B where B is off road. Now if you then start a second journey from B to C where non of the journey is conducted on the public highway you can set your tacho to “out of scope”.
I use it from time to time as we have a site that we work out of and we move loads around the site internally, once I get there and tip the load I have brought in and go around to load the internal load I set the tacho to out of scope, i may move 2 or 3 loads on site, as soon as I have finished the last load and before I load the next load I am taking out I set the tacho back to in scope. Hope this helps
Out of interest do you count the out of scope time as other duty ?
yes dan its still part of your total duty time for that day and you still have to take your wtd breaks as required its just the driving time while out of scope that is not counted
Ok thanks
wildfire:
the easiest way to explain it is like this,
if any part of your journey is conducted on road then all of that journey even if some of it takes part off road is under e.u. regulations.
once you have finished that journey i.e from A to B where B is off road. Now if you then start a second journey from B to C where non of the journey is conducted on the public highway you can set your tacho to “out of scope”.
I use it from time to time as we have a site that we work out of and we move loads around the site internally, once I get there and tip the load I have brought in and go around to load the internal load I set the tacho to out of scope, i may move 2 or 3 loads on site, as soon as I have finished the last load and before I load the next load I am taking out I set the tacho back to in scope. Hope this helps
Once any of your shift involves public highway driving, you cannot record any off road driving as being out of scope, well unless the load puts the vehicle out of scope.
weeto:
wildfire:
the easiest way to explain it is like this,
if any part of your journey is conducted on road then all of that journey even if some of it takes part off road is under e.u. regulations.
once you have finished that journey i.e from A to B where B is off road. Now if you then start a second journey from B to C where non of the journey is conducted on the public highway you can set your tacho to “out of scope”.
I use it from time to time as we have a site that we work out of and we move loads around the site internally, once I get there and tip the load I have brought in and go around to load the internal load I set the tacho to out of scope, i may move 2 or 3 loads on site, as soon as I have finished the last load and before I load the next load I am taking out I set the tacho back to in scope. Hope this helpsOnce any of your shift involves public highway driving, you cannot record any off road driving as being out of scope, well unless the load puts the vehicle out of scope.
sorry chap I have checked this with vosa and if you look in the regulation it states it as well, so it can be done. 
here is the wording direct from dvsa…
Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway. Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as ‘other work’.
So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a passenger-loading
area prior to travelling out onto a public road would constitute driving time. But it would be regarded as other work where all the passengers were picked up and dropped off on the same off-road site
I know they use the example of passengers, but its the same for loads
wildfire:
weeto:
wildfire:
the easiest way to explain it is like this,
if any part of your journey is conducted on road then all of that journey even if some of it takes part off road is under e.u. regulations.
once you have finished that journey i.e from A to B where B is off road. Now if you then start a second journey from B to C where non of the journey is conducted on the public highway you can set your tacho to “out of scope”.
I use it from time to time as we have a site that we work out of and we move loads around the site internally, once I get there and tip the load I have brought in and go around to load the internal load I set the tacho to out of scope, i may move 2 or 3 loads on site, as soon as I have finished the last load and before I load the next load I am taking out I set the tacho back to in scope. Hope this helpsOnce any of your shift involves public highway driving, you cannot record any off road driving as being out of scope, well unless the load puts the vehicle out of scope.
sorry chap I have checked this with vosa and if you look in the regulation it states it as well, so it can be done.
here is the wording direct from dvsa…
Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway. Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as ‘other work’.
So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a passenger-loading
area prior to travelling out onto a public road would constitute driving time. But it would be regarded as other work where all the passengers were picked up and dropped off on the same off-road siteI know they use the example of passengers, but its the same for loads
OK, but how does that work around this?
Most vehicles used for the carriage of goods by road and with a maximum permissible weight (including any trailer or semi-trailer) of over 3.5 tonnes are in scope of the EU rules. ‘Carriage by road’ is defined as
any journey entirely or in part made on roads open to the public of a vehicle, laden or unladen, used
for the carriage of passengers or goods. ‘Off-road’ driving is in scope where it forms part of a journey
that also takes place on public roads. Journeys made that are entirely ‘off-road’ are out of scope of
the EU rules.
weeto:
wildfire:
weeto:
wildfire:
the easiest way to explain it is like this,
if any part of your journey is conducted on road then all of that journey even if some of it takes part off road is under e.u. regulations.
once you have finished that journey i.e from A to B where B is off road. Now if you then start a second journey from B to C where non of the journey is conducted on the public highway you can set your tacho to “out of scope”.
I use it from time to time as we have a site that we work out of and we move loads around the site internally, once I get there and tip the load I have brought in and go around to load the internal load I set the tacho to out of scope, i may move 2 or 3 loads on site, as soon as I have finished the last load and before I load the next load I am taking out I set the tacho back to in scope. Hope this helpsOnce any of your shift involves public highway driving, you cannot record any off road driving as being out of scope, well unless the load puts the vehicle out of scope.
sorry chap I have checked this with vosa and if you look in the regulation it states it as well, so it can be done.
here is the wording direct from dvsa…
Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on
the public highway. Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as ‘other work’.
So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a passenger-loading
area prior to travelling out onto a public road would constitute driving time. But it would be regarded as other work where all the passengers were picked up and dropped off on the same off-road siteI know they use the example of passengers, but its the same for loads
OK, but how does that work around this? oh and were does oassengers come into it.
Most vehicles used for the carriage of goods by road and with a maximum permissible weight (including any trailer or semi-trailer) of over 3.5 tonnes are in scope of the EU rules. ‘Carriage by road’ is defined as
any journey entirely or in part made on roads open to the public of a vehicle, laden or unladen, used
for the carriage of passengers or goods. ‘Off-road’ driving is in scope where it forms part of a journey
that also takes place on public roads. Journeys made that are entirely ‘off-road’ are out of scope of
the EU rules.
you are correct but you do more than one journey in a day, A to B = 1st journey B to C = 2nd journey ect, now if B and C are both off road and you do not go onto the public highway for any part of that journey then you can select out of scope if you want. Its not compulsory but it can be legally selected
Wildfire,
Are you sure about that?
It would seem strange that you could do A to B on the highway under drivers hours rules then do B to C off the highway and put it out of scope and then do C to D on the highway under drivers hours rules.
I would have thought that the principal would be that you can only put it out of scope if you are not coming back on the highway that day?
For example you could have done 6hrs driving no break on the B to C leg which is off the highway so out of scope and then do the C to D bit on the highway and drive for 4.5hrs under drivers hours rules. Ignoring the requirement for and working time break it seems “wrong” that you could end up driving for well over 4.5hrs in total without taking a break?
Any views on this?
Cheers
Are these different journeys done with a vehicle over 3.5 tonnes? - if yes then it all counts as driving for the regs
Used to use " out of scope " a lot in the woods before they made it a lot harder to use.
You could at one point have 11 to 12 hrs driving on a card every day.
you can see why they changed the rules 
.
My take on the rules ( as we were told ).
If you start your day on the main road ( highway ) , even if you then run all day on " off road " it would still count as driving hours.
But if that evening I stayed in the forest and the next day ran all day without going on a main road and again parked in the woods that night …it would be counted as “out of scope”.
But if at the end of that day I had taken the truck back to the yard , the whole days work would be regarded as within drivers hours.
The distances they are now dragging timber in the west of Scotland , companys have started using the out of scope rule.
One place we are hauling from has 31km of forest road before you hit any tar , so they are getting trucks to load and drag it to holding areas near the main road.
These trucks can run for days on “out of scope”
ROG:
Are these different journeys done with a vehicle over 3.5 tonnes? - if yes then it all counts as driving for the regs
Rog page 18 of GV262-03 can you explain the following:-
Note: Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on the public highway.(I understand that) Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as ‘other work’.(this is the bit I am talking about)
So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a passenger-loading area prior to travelling out onto a public road would constitute driving time.But it would be regarded as other work where all the passengers were picked up and dropped off on the same off-road site.
ROG:
Are these different journeys done with a vehicle over 3.5 tonnes? - if yes then it all counts as driving for the regs
Thinking about it Rog, he could be right, but only if the rule makers definition of journey is the same as Wildfire’s!
A-B and tip is a journey, then if you are reloading on the same off road site, your next journey does not start until that vehicle is reloaded and ready to go, and would only take it out of scope prior to leaving the site, even I would say their is a BIG difference between a journey and a shift! if they mean a shift surely they would word it differently, as in any off road driving done between daily rest periods would count as driving if any on road driving had taken place, which it doesn’t, which will leave that wide open to interpretation!
What needs to be checked, is what is actually quoted in the EU rules, and not the Department of Transports interpretation of it.
Just remember, they have a disclaimer on the publication of these rules.
Disclaimer
This publication gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete or authoritative statement of the law. The guidance will be updated to reflect any developments in new legislation or case law.
If you wish to check the legal position, you should refer to the main legislation listed in Annex 1 and, if necessary, seek your own legal advice. The guidance offered in this publication reflects VOSA’s current enforcement policy. It does not reflect interpretation of the law in other countries.
wildfire:
the easiest way to explain it is like this,
if any part of your journey is conducted on road then all of that journey even if some of it takes part off road is under e.u. regulations.
once you have finished that journey i.e from A to B where B is off road. Now if you then start a second journey from B to C where non of the journey is conducted on the public highway you can set your tacho to “out of scope”.
I use it from time to time as we have a site that we work out of and we move loads around the site internally, once I get there and tip the load I have brought in and go around to load the internal load I set the tacho to out of scope, i may move 2 or 3 loads on site, as soon as I have finished the last load and before I load the next load I am taking out I set the tacho back to in scope. Hope this helps
^^^^^^ + 1
GV262. Page 17.
Even a short period of driving under EU rules during any day by a driver will mean that he is in scope of the EU rules for the whole of that day and must comply with the daily driving, break and rest requirements; he will also have to comply with the weekly rest requirement and driving limit.
Terry T:
GV262. Page 17.Even a short period of driving under EU rules during any day by a driver will mean that he is in scope of the EU rules for the whole of that day and must comply with the daily driving, break and rest requirements; he will also have to comply with the weekly rest requirement and driving limit.
I agree terry, and yes I comply with all e.u. regs when they apply, but off road driving where non of the journey is completed on the public highway is other work and not driving as already been pointed out.
Terry T:
GV262. Page 17.Even a short period of driving under EU rules during any day by a driver will mean that he is in scope of the EU rules for the whole of that day and must comply with the daily driving, break and rest requirements; he will also have to comply with the weekly rest requirement and driving limit.
But according to 18 you can use out of scope within EU rules, so they are being complied with, it was also within the rules until some one some were said that you can no longer use it, even though 18 says you still can. Strange!
flippermaj:
I can’t find any clarification on this in the rules and regs!If you drive off road all day then the activity is out of scope.
But if you start on the highway and then go off road and stay off for the rest of the day can you still count the off road part of the day as out of scope?
If you start on the highway, go off road and then come back on the highway can you count the off road bit as out of scope?
Cheers
Flipper
You’re looking at this the wrong way, it’s not a question of what you do when you’ve been driving on public roads it’s more about whether or not the off-road driving is part of a journey that goes onto public roads.
Lets say you start work at 06:00 and move vehicles/trailers around the yard until 12:00, although you’ve moved several vehicles/trailers and done plenty of driving you haven’t been onto public roads so the work is out of scope of EU regulations (counts as other work).
At 12:00 you pick up a vehicle/trailer and drive around the yard until 12:30 loading goods from various points in the yard, you then leave the yard with the same vehicle/trailer to go to the delivery destination, this journey has gone onto public roads so all the driving, including the driving done in the yard while loading the vehicle, is in-scope of EU regulations.
In other words the driving done while loading the vehicle from 12:00 to 12:30 is classed as part of the journey even though you never drove on public roads until the vehicle was loaded at 12:30.
If any part of a journey involves driving on roads open to the public the driving time is in-scope of EU regulations (unless the work or vehicle is exempt obviously).
The whole debate about off road driving comes down to the definition of “journey”, I’ve always thought of a journey as a trip from point A to point B while some people see the journey as a whole shift, I’ve always found this to be a difficult discussion to give a definitive answer to because there appears to be no official definition of a “journey” in the regulations.
However (EEC) No 3821/85 talks about more than one journey on a record sheet which to me implies that the “journey” is in fact the trip from A to B and not the entire shift.
Each crew member shall enter the following information on his record sheet:
~snip~
(d) the odometer reading:– at the start of the first journey recorded on the sheet,
– at the end of the last journey recorded on the sheet,
– in the event of a change of vehicle during a working day
(reading on the vehicle to which he was assigned and reading
on the vehicle to which he is to be assigned);
For me this seems to solve the problem of defining a “journey”, whether or not it solves the problem for other people … who knows