Other job driving times

[kiw]

hi all,

passed class 2 in Jan, starting to get some agency work. I understand that my full time job still counts towards my 60 hours weekly/daily rests etc. when i do any tacho driving at all.

A couple of things I was wondering about was:

In my full time job my contract of employment says I am based at Sunderland (150 miles away) I hardly ever go there as I work from the house and fix machines all over Scotland. This is all car driving so I believe I am not a mobile worker for this.

Example one

leave the house 0600, arrive at Inverness at 0900, fix machine by 1000, see another customer in Inverness, leave Inverness at 1200, have lunch, head over to Nairn, arrive at Nairn 1330, finish at 1500 and head home arriving home at 1830, all times are signed for by the customer. Would my day be 0600 - 1830 at night 12.5 hours minus breaks or 0900 - 1500 minus breaks? (or do I just use common sense and find some middle ground).

Example two

leave the house 0830 for an easy day in Glasgow, arrive at Glasgow 1000, finish in Glasgow at 1400(having had a lunch break), agency phones asking me to do a backshift from Livingston at 1600. Can I put 1400 to 1600 as break time? or would this be other work as I am not driving from home to my agency work?

Last question - sorry folks

Get to agency at 1600, load is not ready until 1745 can I class this as POA, which would then allow me to work til I finish 6 hours later, usually not much driving - doing cages most of the time, or does POA count towards your 6 hours? and obviously I need to finish by 0100 assuming I am taking a 9 hour reduced daily rest starting late the next day at my full time job.

There’s no way I am going to do this all the time, but that’s the way the agency work seems to come, so the odd day doing this is a possibility.

You are probably all thinking why I am doing agency work when I have an easy number during the day but I will probably be losing my job in a couple of years as it’s getting quieter all the time so it seemed a good time when my wife was off on maternity leave to try and learn something different.

Thanks

[rog]

I’ll have a go at this but i’m not the expert…

I would say that your day starts when you set off in the morning and finishes when you arrive home as your home is your base.
The above being the case then all you would do is fill in a seperate tacho for each day with your name, date, start & finish time on it.
I cannot see how anyone could work out times for the WTD as you probably don’t come under EU regs every week and would not, therefore, have a running supply of your times worked.

I don’t think POA counts towards WTD but just to be safe, I would put tacho on break if you get paid for it.

[kiw]

hi rog

thanks for your advise on newbies section helped me get my test pass

also got a post about overhangs for that later.

yes this makes sence as home classed as base

agency told me they will average hours only on weeks i work ec rules

i will need to watch myself on back shifts incase i run past 15 hrs duty when both jobs combined, will tell agency my latest legal finish before i take job

thanks again

[tachograph]

Sorry but I’m slightly confused about this, are you talking about working as an agency driver on the same days that you do your full time job

If you are then I’m afraid you’re not likely to get agency work, even if you do, agency driving is very unpredictable so I would have thought it almost impossible to be sure of staying within the regulations.

[kiw]

hi tachograph

yes this week he called me twice to go out after my “full time” job. sometimes the hours vary alot and i can suit myself as long a jobs get done.

ie work till 2300 one night say monday and then take my hours back on the friday as long as work gets done

agency had me out on two this week and wanted me to do friday also but i knocked it back cause i was busy at full time job

this might just be a one off as they were desperate but i am going to have to be careful not to go illegal,which i would not do

cheers

[rog]

kiw:
hi tachograph

yes this week he called me twice to go out after my “full time” job. sometimes the hours vary alot and i can suit myself as long a jobs get done.

ie work till 2300 one night say monday and then take my hours back on the friday as long as work gets done

agency had me out on two this week and wanted me to do friday also but i knocked it back cause i was busy at full time job

this might just be a one off as they were desperate but i am going to have to be careful not to go illegal,which i would not do

cheers

are you saying that you can vary the times on full time job to accommodate agency without breaking daily rest period regs on any day in that working week

[macplaxton]

No expert either, but I would see it as:

kiw:
Example one

leave the house 0600, arrive at Inverness at 0900, fix machine by 1000, see another customer in Inverness, leave Inverness at 1200, have lunch, head over to Nairn, arrive at Nairn 1330, finish at 1500 and head home arriving home at 1830, all times are signed for by the customer. Would my day be 0600 - 1830 at night 12.5 hours minus breaks or 0900 - 1500 minus breaks? (or do I just use common sense and find some middle ground).

0600-1830 “Other Work” 12.5h minus breaks.

kiw:
Example two

leave the house 0830 for an easy day in Glasgow, arrive at Glasgow 1000, finish in Glasgow at 1400(having had a lunch break), agency phones asking me to do a backshift from Livingston at 1600. Can I put 1400 to 1600 as break time? or would this be other work as I am not driving from home to my agency work?

0830-1400 “Other Work” 5.5h minus “Break”
1400-1600 I would suggest that you haven’t finished work, as you haven’t got back to “base” which I’ve taken as where you work out from most e.g. home. So 2h “Other Work” less “Break” before starting. But if it say takes an hour to get home and an hour to get to the operator. I guessing that 1h “Other Work” and 1h “Break”. But best to err on the side of caution and call it all “Other Work”

kiw:
Last question - sorry folks

Get to agency at 1600, load is not ready until 1745 can I class this as POA, which would then allow me to work til I finish 6 hours later, usually not much driving - doing cages most of the time, or does POA count towards your 6 hours? and obviously I need to finish by 0100 assuming I am taking a 9 hour reduced daily rest starting late the next day at my full time job.

POA is when you’re not doing anything, but can’t clear off anywhere, and you have a vague idea how long it’s going to be. So sitting twiddling your thumbs between 1600 and 1745 would be POA. POA wouldn’t count to your six hours.

The finish time of 0100 would obviously depend on when you started the previous day. If you started at 1000 Mon then you’d have to be finished 0100 Tue to get the 9hrs in before 1000 Tues. If you started 0600 Mon then you’d have to be wrapped up by 2100 Mon for a reduced daily rest.

Be very careful.

[kiw]

hi rog

would only really be looking to get the odd shift to get experience, and i realise i will be the guy they call last which is fair enough. the two this week he said just get there when you can.

the main thing i was not sure about was not having a base in normal job so where does the clock start ticking.

i think its got to be the house

full time job is monday to friday so unlikly to hit 60 hrs plus breaks in five days

i am ok for this sunday though i out on a back shift

thanks again

[tachograph]

Now I understand

Example one

leave the house 0600, arrive at Inverness at 0900, fix machine by 1000, see another customer in Inverness, leave Inverness at 1200, have lunch, head over to Nairn, arrive at Nairn 1330, finish at 1500 and head home arriving home at 1830, all times are signed for by the customer. Would my day be 0600 - 1830 at night 12.5 hours minus breaks or 0900 - 1500 minus breaks? (or do I just use common sense and find some middle ground).

Presumably you get paid for the travelling and are on duty, so I agree with ROG, the work time would begin when you leave home and end when you return home (06:00 to 18:30 minus breaks).

Example two

leave the house 0830 for an easy day in Glasgow, arrive at Glasgow 1000, finish in Glasgow at 1400(having had a lunch break), agency phones asking me to do a backshift from Livingston at 1600. Can I put 1400 to 1600 as break time? or would this be other work as I am not driving from home to my agency work?

Presumably the Glasgow work is part of your full time job, I assume that under these circumstances your full time jobs duty time would end at Glasgow, so the time spent travelling to the agency job would be “rest” as you’re not working in anyone’s employment at this point.

Get to agency at 1600, load is not ready until 1745 can I class this as POA, which would then allow me to work til I finish 6 hours later, usually not much driving - doing cages most of the time, or does POA count towards your 6 hours? and obviously I need to finish by 0100 assuming I am taking a 9 hour reduced daily rest starting late the next day at my full time job.

I assume that “Get to agency at 1600” really means “Get to agency’s client at 1600”, if you get to a job and are told that the load isn’t ready and you will need to wait, assuming that you’re told how long you will be waiting and you’re getting paid for the time you can put this down as POA or break, it’s really upto you.

The 6 hour rule states that no-one should work for more than 6 hours without a break, this 6 hours doesn’t include POA, so if you started at 16:00 and booked until 17:45 as POA, you wouldn’t legally be required to have a break for the 6 hour rule until 23:45.

For the record, what time you start work the following morning may not keep you legal in these circumstances, looking at the times you’ve spoken of above, lets say you start your full time job at 08:30 and finish it at 14:00 then start a driving job working to EU regulations at 16:00, because you’re working to EU regulations at some point in the day you will be subject to the daily rest requirements for that day, as you started at 08:30 you must have either a daily rest (11 hours) or a reduced daily rest (no less than 9 hours) within 24 hours of the start of the days work, so in this cqase you would need to have completed at least a reduced daily rest of 9 hours by 08:30 the following day, in other words you would need to finsh the driving job by 23:30 (23:30 to 08:30 = 9 hours).

edit: “so if you started at 16:00 and booked until 17:45” should have added “as POA” (last but one paragraph)
corrected now.

[kiw]

thanks macplaxton and tachograph

just about to get kids off to bath when i get youngest off to bed i ll tot up hours and post back what it totals to

thanks again

[rog]

kiw:
thanks macplaxton and tachograph

just about to get kids off to bath when i get youngest off to bed i ll tot up hours and post back what it totals to

thanks again

And double check the amount of hours between finish of work on one day and the start of work on the next

[tachograph]

ROG:

kiw:
thanks macplaxton and tachograph

just about to get kids off to bath when i get youngest off to bed i ll tot up hours and post back what it totals to

thanks again

And double check the amount of hours between finish of work on one day and the start of work on the next

Why ?

If it’s the daily rest you’re thinking of, it’s weather or not a daily rest or reduced daily rest can be fitted into the 24 hour period from the start of the days work that counts, I suspect this is where kiw could have problems.

[rog]

tachograph:

ROG:

kiw:
thanks macplaxton and tachograph

just about to get kids off to bath when i get youngest off to bed i ll tot up hours and post back what it totals to

thanks again

And double check the amount of hours between finish of work on one day and the start of work on the next

Why ?

If it’s the daily rest you’re thinking of, it’s weather or not a daily rest or reduced daily rest can be fitted into the 24 hour period from the start of the days work that counts, I suspect this is where kiw could have problems.

Thats what I meant but said it wrong - again

[kiw]

hi

i can see were you are coming from, it soon adds up.

got away with it this week due to driving shifts being short, they didnt feel that short when i was doing them.

monday start 8.30 finish 18.30 other work breaks 1.5
tuesday 7.00 16.15 other work breaks1.25
wednesday 8.30 22.30 otherwork/ec drive breaks2.75
thursday 9.00 23.15 otherwork/ec drive breaks2.25 poa1.75
friday 8.40 16.40 other work breaks1.25

works out about 57.5 minus 10.75 breaks plus poa

can see what tachogragh means about daily rests as i was close to 9 hrs on two of them. can only reduce to 9 three times

cant also see a problem on the 48hr average work thing as think this was just a mega week for agency but i will keep eye on it

out tommorow at 14.00 , if i am correct the 60 hrs will reset at 00.00 monday morning but i will need to take at least nine hours rest before starting monday.

just about to go and fix my other work charts as they are wrong due to not counting home as base for start time, luckily all agency was digital

think i will limit to max one a week as it hard going when you learning

thanks for all your advise

kiw

[kiw]

hi everyone,

thanks for all your advice, was out last night and just as predicted by tachograph (I think), got heavily delayed at RDC’s, did not finish til 0320 which means I am still sitting in the house and am going to be 4 hours 20 mins late leaving for work.

Was supposed to be going to Fraserburgh today and would normally have left at 5ish getting finished up there about 10, so this has to get put back to tomorrow, but it’s actually worked out by some amazing fluke as 10 minutes ago I have just had a breakdown call in Banff which is only about 45 mins from Fraserburgh so I can do the two in the same day - result!

I will put a post on later with what I did in my tacho as I was on an analogue last night which was a bit of a shock

thanks again everyone,

p.s. one of the other agency drivers was on his second day and he didn’t have a clue about weekly rests, daily duties etc. so told him about trucket, so they should have a new member

also, agency have been on the phone again this morning, but going to skip it for a few days incase I start making mistakes.

[kiw]

hi folks,

just going through my tacho for Sunday nights shift for my working time directive form for the agency, played it safe with the breaks, but I’ll need to get better at this cos I don’t get paid for breaks, still I suppose better to be legal than have a few extra pounds.

1400 - 1445 driving from RDC1 to RDC2 to get loaded
1500 - 1630 waiting to get into RDC2 - other work as didn’t have an idea of when I was getting in, I was in a queue.
1630 - 1645 through gatehouse onto bay driving
1645 - 1830 other work, i.e. no idea when I was getting away
1830 - 1915 break (purely because I’ve found out the two shops I am due to deliver to are shutting at 2200, and I don’t want to hit 2000 and tell him I am going on a break).
1915 - 2000 availability as he has told me I am leaving at 2000
2000 - 2200 mostly driving and other work, drop 1 refuses load as it’s too late. drop 2 gets the other 7 cages.
2200 - 2315 drive back to RDC2 to drop off the undelivered 3 cages, security guard tells me to wait again
2315 - 0000 put this down as break so that I can hopefully get the rest of the night done as quickly as I can and get home without taking any more breaks.
0000 - 0015 get onto bay
0015 - 0230 put this in availability as the transport have told me to wait varying lenghts of times to get a return load back to RDC2.
0230 - 0320 driving, no return load, he tells me to go back to RDC1.

get home to my bed, will need to get better at the non driving breaks as it looks as if this is going to affect me more than the actual driving breaks.

P.S. Police had a road block today at Brechin on the A90, and they were pulling in cars for checks, they had some sort of fancy camera van with ten foot pole out top (definately not a speed camera van as it was set up as roadworks purely for this check)and had flashing lights all over it. Then to top it all off a traffic car followed me for 10 miles between Banff and Fraserburgh today, just the two of us on the road .
Suppose this is as good a reason as any to stay legal as although I was driving in my car if they had stopped me would they know that I had a digital card or I am being paranoid. i allways carry my card should i hide it in spare wheel compartment

seriously thanks again for all your advice

kiw

[rog]

1500 - 1630 waiting to get into RDC2 - other work as didn’t have an idea of when I was getting in, I was in a queue.
1645 - 1830 other work, i.e. no idea when I was getting away

I don’t get paid for breaks

If not moving in that queue then I cannot see why you could not have been on POA - if you asked “when will I be seen etc” and then been told “dunno, you’ll have to wait and see” then I think that is POA

[simon]

ROG:
[If not moving in that queue then I cannot see why you could not have been on POA - if you asked “when will I be seen etc” and then been told "dunno, you’ll have to wait and see" then I think that is POA

Wrong again ROG

For POA, you have to know how long you’ll be waiting, roughly.

You can “know” how long the wait will be from several sources.

As you sit there waiting, you can observe that they take so many minutes to do a wagon and you are the 'N’th wagon in the queue.
You can then multiply “so many minutes” by “N”, to get a rough idea how long you’ll be waiting.
This method also works if another driver tell you, “they take about so long to do a wagon”, as you’re chatting while you wait.

You can be told by a member of staff that, “it’ll be so long till we get to you driver”. You can then modify that “so long” using the above method.

You might have been there before. You therefore already know how long you’ll be waiting, from using the first method that time.

Wait and see isn’t acceptable.
(Of course, no one but you and the speaker know what you were told).

The WTD guide which Lucy spent a lot of time doing explains all this.
It’s a sticky at the top of this forum, I think. It might be in the Professional Drivers Forum instead.