Not old old but an early 160
tiptop495:
[zb]
anorak:
The lorry in the video has a “370” badge on it. This suggests that some were sold, or was it just a one-off, for a show or something? If the engine was actually 16 litres, how did they make it from the exiting 14.9 litre Unic V8? Did they bore it out, or was there room for a longer stroke within the crankcase? Either way, what an interesting vehicle, and what a surperb restoration. I want a go in it!Hey Anorak, that engine called V86S had a bore 138 and stroke 130 and was about 15.6 litres, as was the V85S
130 X 135 is 14.9 litres. The Swiss man used an Izoard T270T2 as lorry and put in the Test engine in it.
I’m not sure but think the engine was never used on the road for testing but only at the factory,as where he it found.Bye Eric,
Your knowledge of these important (last Unic engine type ever built) details is amazing. Thank God for this forum and, to a lesser extent, my uncontrollable habit of asking daft questions! 
Switzerland is the old lorry capital of the World, isn’t it? They find the rarest, most interesting specimens and restore them to a standard of which the original maker would be proud. I don’t care that the T370 was a made-up lorry- if the engine was the only one in existence, then it deserved to be put to use as Unic may have intended.
Lastly, I bet the Fiat 17.2 litre V8 used the crank out of the V85S. Testing of that V86S engine would have provided the Unic/Fiat engineers with the evidence that the crank was strong enough, so they did not need to buy forging dies or crank machining equipment. Some time back, Monsieur Saviem, with his inside knowledge of the industry, said that the Fiat engine was a development of the V85S. I shot back with something along the lines of the block and heads looking completely different. However, it seems we may both be right! It would be nice to see photographs of both cranks, to see if my speculation carries any weight.
[zb]
anorak:tiptop495:
[zb]
anorak:
The lorry in the video has a “370” badge on it. This suggests that some were sold, or was it just a one-off, for a show or something? If the engine was actually 16 litres, how did they make it from the exiting 14.9 litre Unic V8? Did they bore it out, or was there room for a longer stroke within the crankcase? Either way, what an interesting vehicle, and what a surperb restoration. I want a go in it!Hey Anorak, that engine called V86S had a bore 138 and stroke 130 and was about 15.6 litres, as was the V85S
130 X 135 is 14.9 litres. The Swiss man used an Izoard T270T2 as lorry and put in the Test engine in it.
I’m not sure but think the engine was never used on the road for testing but only at the factory,as where he it found.Bye Eric,
Your knowledge of these important (last Unic engine type ever built) details is amazing. Thank God for this forum and, to a lesser extent, my uncontrollable habit of asking daft questions!
Switzerland is the old lorry capital of the World, isn’t it? They find the rarest, most interesting specimens and restore them to a standard of which the original maker would be proud. I don’t care that the T370 was a made-up lorry- if the engine was the only one in existence, then it deserved to be put to use as Unic may have intended.
Lastly, I bet the Fiat 17.2 litre V8 used the crank out of the V85S. Testing of that V86S engine would have provided the Unic/Fiat engineers with the evidence that the crank was strong enough, so they did not need to buy forging dies or crank machining equipment. Some time back, Monsieur Saviem, with his inside knowledge of the industry, said that the Fiat engine was a development of the V85S. I shot back with something along the lines of the block and heads looking completely different. However, it seems we may both be right! It would be nice to see photographs of both cranks, to see if my speculation carries any weight.
Hey Anorak, there were at least 4 testing engines, maybe more■■?, and of course Fiat used knowledge of it.
The Swiss engineering of Saurer came in the hands of Fiat too, and from which Unic used the technology too, years before. But the stroke maybe the same mesure, but not sure if it was that, because of the need for bigger ends
for the heaveir pistons ■■? And was it long enough for the bigger and maybe longer 17 litre ■■?
Both engines were not bad, but the first was always oil leaking and a lot small things were cheap quality.
In that way the Fiat was a lot better, outside the known weaknesses around the truck. But every uprating made
it better first 330 then 350 380 and the Turbostar was very good outside its very quick rotten cab, which was still a weakness
in the later years even after 2000.
Bye Eric,
On Switzerland being the capital…
- with an eye for precission and details, not the least also patience
- no direct involveness in WW1 and WW2
- tidy and clean approach, the early way of sustainable activities
- finance through banking sector, tourism (alpine ski), pharmaceuticals
- …
Herewith a copy of the back of a Lancia Esatau of 1950. For the engine-
enthousiasts…6 cylinders, bore 108, stroke 150, 8.245litres, 122 hp at
2.000revs/min, also a copy of Esagamma E engine.
For the enthousiasts of Italian-marques, I can strongly advice the series of
books of Edizione Negri, on Alfa Romeo, FIAT, Lancia, OM and many other…
To my humble opinion the last sold Romeo…in BeNeLux, with 1290cc petrol engine (same
as of the Guillietta-car) with Solex-carburetor, Girling-shockabsorbers, Don-Até-brakes, ZF-
Gemmer-steering, Carello-head-lights…ZF-gearbox, Magneti-Marelli-electrical etc
tiptop495:
Hey, one of the first OM 190 models with Fiat/Unic cab, it was an Original UNIC Izoard 340 and UNIC altered tilting cab
for 100%. Only an other grille and type in gross weights.
Only some change were made on the braking system to meet the different country legislation.Bye Eric,
I have mentioned this before, but it bears repetition - why did Fiat allow their two smaller partners the use of the superior tilt cab, while they stuck with the fixed version until 1975? It does not make sense. If they were to become the dominant member of Iveco, why sell the top-of-the-range product under two other names? I could suggest that the Italian market was more conservative than the rest of Europe, so preferred a fixed cab and straight six engine, but the badge-engineered OM 340 V8’s main market was Italy. Was it because OM had built up a reputation for “supertrucks” with its 1960s Titano, so Fiat decided to leave that market to that brand, or what? Suggestions please.
No daft question at all, only …you give the answer yourself!!!
Iveco…was merely and only a mix of companies awaiting the
big succes of a merge think of Magirus-Deutz■■? later Ford and
so on…who pays/invests…now it is so obvious with Scania
and MAN hesitating to have new cabs, where Scania should be
the very first now…at the end of the day (I said it frequently)
it is all about money…I think Iveco will not reach 2030 so on.
Iveco is when it comes to DNA an Italian company, but after
absorbing a lot of technical inventions of others…brrrrrrrrrr
Where is Ford nowadays? Pegaso? Seddon? Atkinson? Wake up!!!
Nice 1/24 model
ERF-Continental:
No daft question at all, only …you give the answer yourself!!!Iveco…was merely and only a mix of companies awaiting the
big succes of a merge think of Magirus-Deutz■■? later Ford and
so on…who pays/invests…now it is so obvious with Scania
and MAN hesitating to have new cabs, where Scania should be
the very first now…at the end of the day (I said it frequently)
it is all about money…I think Iveco will not reach 2030 so on.Iveco is when it comes to DNA an Italian company, but after
absorbing a lot of technical inventions of others…brrrrrrrrrrWhere is Ford nowadays? Pegaso? Seddon? Atkinson? Wake up!!!
Hey ERF, Don’t know the financial state of any marque but thing Iveco Fiat is a strong company and will survive■■?
Here the last years they sell more and more of course not spectacular, but for price and quality most are happy with it.
Future will show the play. Of course many drivers blame them and so continue to get a bad name.
Too many think still that the logo makes the quality today.
For instance today Volvo has a good name on of road, and MB has with it’s euro 6 the edge on fuel for big tractors.
But on the other way some Germans aren’t so heated with the MAN’s or MB’s today, and must say you see lot’s of Volvo’s
in Germany today.
Bye Eric,
Bye Eric,
Eric,
First of all I have not the wisdom or skills to predict but I expect there soon will be a strong
group A (with VW-MAN-SCANIA, Mercedes-Benz-Freightliner, Paccar-DAF-Kenworth-Peterbilt)
and group B (with Renault-Mack, Volvo-White-GMC) and group C (with Iveco and rest of the
world to mention it not unrespectfully)…all of these wondering on their market-share in
the different markets (tractors, tippers, and so on…) but mainly on components, call it the
main content like cabs, engines, gearboxes, axles…and then the business case comes on
WHERE to produce/assemble WHAT…not easy. To my humble opinion it screams for a lot
of capital and decisions if you can shop/define your truck from your desk with several options.
Some of the group A don’t depend only on truck-sales…and earned massive financial reserves,
me thinking Volkswagen is by far the most richest company globally now and that in relation
to involved in both cars and trucks, whereas as an example BMW is very strong in cars but with
no importance in trucks or the construction-sector. Caterpillar as well as John Deere soon saw
the benefits and necessity to specialise in their strong markets, so construction and agriculture.
Further on I expect sub-marques…like DAF (from Paccar) had the opportunity to specialise in
the strong (local) market of construction with GINAF…same had Mercedes-Benz with Terberg.
At the end…I have no doubts or dislikes to Iveco or other marques, but the strong/smart ones
will survive and eat the bigger part of the cake.
Compliments for your Velghe-input on the container-thread!
A-J
GAAN WE BUZZE GEVEN HIER? 
ERF-Continental:
Eric,First of all I have not the wisdom or skills to predict but I expect there soon will be a strong
group A (with VW-MAN-SCANIA, Mercedes-Benz-Freightliner, Paccar-DAF-Kenworth-Peterbilt)
and group B (with Renault-Mack, Volvo-White-GMC) and group C (with Iveco and rest of the
world to mention it not unrespectfully)…all of these wondering on their market-share in
the different markets (tractors, tippers, and so on…) but mainly on components, call it the
main content like cabs, engines, gearboxes, axles…and then the business case comes on
WHERE to produce/assemble WHAT…not easy. To my humble opinion it screams for a lot
of capital and decisions if you can shop/define your truck from your desk with several options.Some of the group A don’t depend only on truck-sales…and earned massive financial reserves,
me thinking Volkswagen is by far the most richest company globally now and that in relation
to involved in both cars and trucks, whereas as an example BMW is very strong in cars but with
no importance in trucks or the construction-sector. Caterpillar as well as John Deere soon saw
the benefits and necessity to specialise in their strong markets, so construction and agriculture.Further on I expect sub-marques…like DAF (from Paccar) had the opportunity to specialise in
the strong (local) market of construction with GINAF…same had Mercedes-Benz with Terberg.At the end…I have no doubts or dislikes to Iveco or other marques, but the strong/smart ones
will survive and eat the bigger part of the cake.Compliments for your Velghe-input on the container-thread!
A-J
GAAN WE BUZZE GEVEN HIER?
As well as the VW, Mercedes, Paccar and Volvo global groups, there are still plenty of smaller makes in Turkey, Russia, Japan, India and China, plus others that I don’t know about, probably!
The Japanese have been the best manufacturing engineers in the World for decades, yet their heavy vehicles have never caught on in the West, because the products seem to be designed exclusively for Asian markets. The Japs have just not bothered to design Euro- or US-friendly lorries, and I can’t see them starting now.
The Chinese makes are collaborating with Western firms, notably MAN and ■■■■■■■■ and are busy advancing their technology towards European standards, so it seems. I predict that they will have a global player, in the coming decades. Tata now owns the British car industry- how long will it be before they start sniffing around lorries?
As for the rest, they are all big enough to cover the costs of developing the vehicles. Most of them will survive, including Iveco.
[zb]
anorak:
The Japanese have been the best manufacturing engineers in the World for decades, yet their heavy vehicles have never caught on in the West, because the products seem to be designed exclusively for Asian markets. The Japs have just not bothered to design Euro- or US-friendly lorries, and I can’t see them starting now.
I really don’t want to drag this thread further off-topic, so I’ll make this as short as I can…
Over here in Oz (I don’t know about other world markets), the commercial vehicle arm of Mercedes-Benz is now calling itself “Daimler Trucks”, under which umbrella are M-B, Freightliner (as ERF-C correctly points out) and… wait for it… Fuso (aka Mitsubishi). I assume (but don’t know for sure) that’s just a local arrangement (though I see Daimler Trucks US includes not just Freightliner but Western Star), and the cynic in me wonders if the hope is that some of the Euro-gloss that M-B brings will rub off on Fuso (god nose they need it). The other major Jap brands are Hino (part of Toyota), Isuzu (latterly part of GM, though I don’t know the current status) and UD (aka Nissan) - I can’t see any of these failing in the near future, so it’s probably safe to say they will continue to be dominant in their home market, SE Asia and Aus-NZ, and significant players elsewhere (Middle East, Africa, S. America). None of that makes them a significant threat in western Europe (which I realise is where most of you on TN are), especially given that even here (and after decades supplying millions of light- to medium-weight trucks) they still haven’t penetrated the heavyweight market to any significant degree. Yes, there are more Hino, Fuso and UD prime movers (tractor units) on the roads, but they’re nearly all on local runs (eg supermarket distribution, container work).
All that said, all the big Euro conglomerates should be aware that the instant they let their guard drop…
Many thanks for first feedback and also apologies that I started a kind of sub=thread whereas I earlier
started a thread on the Survivors…but to compensate for the Italian content I attach some Alfa Romeo
pictures.
No problem with digression- if you want to say it, say it, even if it only has the slightest connection to the thread title. The question of whether Italy will keep a lorry-building industry, as the mergers of the past half-a-century continue, is valid.
I totally agree and no hesitation from my side however we all can not predict what will happen.
Still, what WILL happen is the fact that there will be global players with well chosen factory-locations
and more regional players, even specialised players.
Evening all, A-J, well summed up with your groupings, and accurate.
Future growth will come outside of the “Euro Superstate”…legislators dislike lorries…but love rail!
Iveco, (the family Agnelli), will survive, and grow…strong connection, both in “intellectual property”, design, licence, and manufacture, in S E Asia, South America…and a “pot of cash” to aid acquisition and growth.
The rise of Fiat/Iveco, and the swallowing up of other marques is perhaps worthy of its own thread, and in particular the adoption of “others” engineering design, and manufacturing technique, and not least the “repatriation” of key staff, (of many disciplines), to Turin to strengthen the core business model.
But to go back to the “old days”…I can remember when OM was regarded as a premium vehicle in the French market, and of course Alfa Romeo and Saviem collaborated both in vehicles and engines at the lighter end of the market…but perhaps a little surprise was the Alfa Romeo 30 star…promoted by both parties just prior to the Saviem/Berliet merger…a 300bhp 4x2 Alfa Romeo Tractor, based upon the yet to be announced Saviem PS 30…now that would have excited our Italian friends…but they got the 356 Berliet,(360) through a different network…
Ive some design rushes/artwork somewhere in my filing system…
But of course I can wax lyrical about the Unic contribution to Fiats designs…and it was far greater than any Italian would care to admit!!
Back to my Bollinger, for supper time is upon me…and the wheat is still coming in!
Cheerio for now.
Thank you Saviem! Sure we need to consider more countries and markets.
To be honest, I had really no idea that the Agnelli-family still has important
parts of the Iveco-concern, me thinking the US CNH (Case New Holland) had
the main stake in it. Perhaps I will re-start the “The survivors”-thread again.
Nice Sunday! A-J