the maoster:
Jesus Jake, please learn how to use the quote function will ya?
Don’t worry, I know how to use it. I thought you may have noticed I have used it in the past. I will use it in future to keep you happy. Awight. 
discoman:
jakethesnake:
I assure you it is easy to train a person to drive a truck … I have a class 1 and no qualifications as a driving instructor, but I can assure you, I could get people through the test no problems … it’s a simple test as you claim … Robroy was an example … look, driving is a simple job and no skills needed to turn a wheel … I have driven them and they are easy to drive … like every occupation with experience it becomes easy … surveys are just like opinion polls, only accurate and reflect what the surveyors want… yes, Average Joe’s do train well, I was taught by an “average joe” for all my licence’s and passed them first time, ie car, taught by my father a truck driver, my PCV an ex truck driver…, my truck licences guess what non qualified truck drivers.Sorry but I can’t agree with you.It’s easy to train someone to pass a test as you say but to what standard? I know plenty drivers that have trained other drivers and like you with no qualifications to train. Yes they sometimes get the driver through their test but they are only teaching what they know, the way they drive and what they think is correct but some of the time they are not training to a decent standard. Most drivers think they are really good but in reality most are full of bad habits(which may not be dangerous) however over time all drivers develop bad habits and become complacent about certain situations. And NO a decent driver does not necessarily make a good trainer. You have to know how to get things over and when. You need be calm and patient at all times.
I almost guarantee if you went for an assessment as an instructor you would not pass in more ways than one. Don’t mention DCPC Instructors because there training is well below standard as seen by some trying to teach it. I am not a driving instructor, I merely stated, I could get a person through a test … it is not brain surgery …Don’t get me wrong you are probably a very good driver (just like robroy) but without training to instruct I doubt you are passing on the correct info. How’s your HC by the way? Do you know it inside out or about the same as average joe?
PS just noticed you said “I could get people through their test” So have you ever or is it all in the mind?
Ah, so, a good teacher can prevent a driver hitting a bridge huh … qualifications are not needed to teach… the guy whom taught me took me over near all possible test routes at Enfield when I passed in 2005 … and we had to do the gear change exercise … I have my HC here in NSW… and it was literally turn up at 10 am at Mittagong await the arrival of A RMS examiner ( never turned up btw) … drover around Mittagong Hill top and Bowral then tharnwas it paperworked signed and I had an HC licence … and that gave me some nonsense qualification as a truck driver here in NSW… I can’t recall the number but I have it somewhere … I was asked to reverse in straight line no couple uncouple etc … no reverse into a box … I assure you the standard of training in the UK is good … you don’t even need a medical for a Heavy Combination licence here in Australia … let along a DCPC, they still use log books and that is only if you are more than 100km as the crow flies from base… I will up load a pic of it when I can find the old A4 size log book. …
You are quite correct, qualifications are not needed as we all know but I can assure you drivers will learn far easier and the correct way using a good qualified instructor rather than an experienced lorry driver.There may be some experienced drivers who have never picked up bad driving habits over the years but in many years of training I have never met one yet. As I said and you said an experienced driver can and probably will get them through a test but the standard of driving will only relate to that experienced driver. IE his or her perception of road position (ask yourself how many lorries you see taking the complete wrong position everyday) keeping the correct distance from the vehicle in front (look at how many have no idea about that) how to join DC or mortorway correctly. I could go on but you only need to look at the standard of driving we have here in the Uk to see there is a big problem.You think it is good in the Uk? Well that tells me something. Even robroy agrees the standard is poor. I will say that a properly qualified instructor needs driving experience of driving trucks though. That was tried once and did not have the same sucess.
I would be interested to know the accident rate for trucks in Australia compared to UK? I would guess probably not as bas as roads less conjested out of cities.
jakethesnake:
discoman:
jakethesnake:
I assure you it is easy to train a person to drive a truck … I have a class 1 and no qualifications as a driving instructor, but I can assure you, I could get people through the test no problems … it’s a simple test as you claim … Robroy was an example … look, driving is a simple job and no skills needed to turn a wheel … I have driven them and they are easy to drive … like every occupation with experience it becomes easy … surveys are just like opinion polls, only accurate and reflect what the surveyors want… yes, Average Joe’s do train well, I was taught by an “average joe” for all my licence’s and passed them first time, ie car, taught by my father a truck driver, my PCV an ex truck driver…, my truck licences guess what non qualified truck drivers.Sorry but I can’t agree with you.It’s easy to train someone to pass a test as you say but to what standard? I know plenty drivers that have trained other drivers and like you with no qualifications to train. Yes they sometimes get the driver through their test but they are only teaching what they know, the way they drive and what they think is correct but some of the time they are not training to a decent standard. Most drivers think they are really good but in reality most are full of bad habits(which may not be dangerous) however over time all drivers develop bad habits and become complacent about certain situations. And NO a decent driver does not necessarily make a good trainer. You have to know how to get things over and when. You need be calm and patient at all times.
I almost guarantee if you went for an assessment as an instructor you would not pass in more ways than one. Don’t mention DCPC Instructors because there training is well below standard as seen by some trying to teach it. I am not a driving instructor, I merely stated, I could get a person through a test … it is not brain surgery …Don’t get me wrong you are probably a very good driver (just like robroy) but without training to instruct I doubt you are passing on the correct info. How’s your HC by the way? Do you know it inside out or about the same as average joe?
PS just noticed you said “I could get people through their test” So have you ever or is it all in the mind?
Ah, so, a good teacher can prevent a driver hitting a bridge huh … qualifications are not needed to teach… the guy whom taught me took me over near all possible test routes at Enfield when I passed in 2005 … and we had to do the gear change exercise … I have my HC here in NSW… and it was literally turn up at 10 am at Mittagong await the arrival of A RMS examiner ( never turned up btw) … drover around Mittagong Hill top and Bowral then tharnwas it paperworked signed and I had an HC licence … and that gave me some nonsense qualification as a truck driver here in NSW… I can’t recall the number but I have it somewhere … I was asked to reverse in straight line no couple uncouple etc … no reverse into a box … I assure you the standard of training in the UK is good … you don’t even need a medical for a Heavy Combination licence here in Australia … let along a DCPC, they still use log books and that is only if you are more than 100km as the crow flies from base… I will up load a pic of it when I can find the old A4 size log book. …
You are quite correct, qualifications are not needed as we all know but I can assure you drivers will learn far easier and the correct way using a good qualified instructor rather than an experienced lorry driver.There may be some experienced drivers who have never picked up bad driving habits over the years but in many years of training I have never met one yet. As I said and you said an experienced driver can and probably will get them through a test but the standard of driving will only relate to that experienced driver. IE his or her perception of road position (ask yourself how many lorries you see taking the complete wrong position everyday) keeping the correct distance from the vehicle in front (look at how many have no idea about that) how to join DC or mortorway correctly. I could go on but you only need to look at the standard of driving we have here in the Uk to see there is a big problem.You think it is good in the Uk? Well that tells me something. Even robroy agrees the standard is poor. I will say that a properly qualified instructor needs driving experience of driving trucks though. That was tried once and did not have the same sucess.
I would be interested to know the accident rate for trucks in Australia compared to UK? I would guess probably not as bas as roads less conjested out of cities.
When I passed my truck test class 2 in 2004, I was always told by my non qualified instructor, to always ensure the front o/s of the cab rides the line that will get your rear n/s around without hitting the kerb, of course it is not always the case and indeed times you would need to saddle both lanes etc … wide birth … you can’t compare Australia to the UK for accidents, ie, the main drag from Sydney to Melbourne is generally 2 lane free way … from, Sydney to Canberra is … I have never been past Canberra … the speed of trucks are 100km over here there are MC trucks etc … I have driven trucks in the UK and a few when I first moved to Australia in 2012… really is no difference … it’s all about the driver, situational awareness … forward planning and general common sense, you can teach people road positioning… I don’t claim to be a good driver, but I ensure I drive to standards expected, ie won’t use a phone, eat at wheel etc … good use of mirrors, I took my motorcycle test in 2013 over here, never rode road legal bikes before only off road bikes ., but, that improved my driving skills ten fold … I looked on the DVSA site, and the test maps are there so any decent driving instructor would be able to get 95% of people through… I very much doubt, that here is much difference between an instructor with a Rospa qualification to just a simple LGV licence … My mate back in London teaches, for a JSM, as a bus instructor ,l he has a very good pass rate yet, he has no qualifications … look at Stobart, claim to be so good yet, there trucks always stuck under bridges … it really is the driver not always the teacher.
jakethesnake:
You are quite correct, qualifications are not needed as we all know but I can assure you drivers will learn far easier and the correct way using a good qualified instructor rather than an experienced lorry driver.
I suppose the difference is firstly that you expect an instructor to meet some minimum standard. Most drivers probably would make a good crack at being instructors, but not all.
Secondly, you expect an experienced instructor to have some ready skill in the area of teaching. Again, probably most drivers can pick this experience up, but to keep risks lower and standards higher, you want to ensure that there aren’t an excessive number of first-time instructors and chancers operating or that it isn’t entirely an amateur game.
Rjan:
jakethesnake:
You are quite correct, qualifications are not needed as we all know but I can assure you drivers will learn far easier and the correct way using a good qualified instructor rather than an experienced lorry driver.I suppose the difference is firstly that you expect an instructor to meet some minimum standard. Most drivers probably would make a good crack at being instructors, but not all.
Secondly, you expect an experienced instructor to have some ready skill in the area of teaching. Again, probably most drivers can pick this experience up, but to keep risks lower and standards higher, you want to ensure that there aren’t an excessive number of first-time instructors and chancers operating or that it isn’t entirely an amateur game.
Pretty spot on Rjan.
discoman:
jakethesnake:
discoman:
jakethesnake:
I assure you it is easy to train a person to drive a truck … I have a class 1 and no qualifications as a driving instructor, but I can assure you, I could get people through the test no problems … it’s a simple test as you claim … Robroy was an example … look, driving is a simple job and no skills needed to turn a wheel … I have driven them and they are easy to drive … like every occupation with experience it becomes easy … surveys are just like opinion polls, only accurate and reflect what the surveyors want… yes, Average Joe’s do train well, I was taught by an “average joe” for all my licence’s and passed them first time, ie car, taught by my father a truck driver, my PCV an ex truck driver…, my truck licences guess what non qualified truck drivers.Sorry but I can’t agree with you.It’s easy to train someone to pass a test as you say but to what standard? I know plenty drivers that have trained other drivers and like you with no qualifications to train. Yes they sometimes get the driver through their test but they are only teaching what they know, the way they drive and what they think is correct but some of the time they are not training to a decent standard. Most drivers think they are really good but in reality most are full of bad habits(which may not be dangerous) however over time all drivers develop bad habits and become complacent about certain situations. And NO a decent driver does not necessarily make a good trainer. You have to know how to get things over and when. You need be calm and patient at all times.
I almost guarantee if you went for an assessment as an instructor you would not pass in more ways than one. Don’t mention DCPC Instructors because there training is well below standard as seen by some trying to teach it. I am not a driving instructor, I merely stated, I could get a person through a test … it is not brain surgery …Don’t get me wrong you are probably a very good driver (just like robroy) but without training to instruct I doubt you are passing on the correct info. How’s your HC by the way? Do you know it inside out or about the same as average joe?
PS just noticed you said “I could get people through their test” So have you ever or is it all in the mind?
Ah, so, a good teacher can prevent a driver hitting a bridge huh … qualifications are not needed to teach… the guy whom taught me took me over near all possible test routes at Enfield when I passed in 2005 … and we had to do the gear change exercise … I have my HC here in NSW… and it was literally turn up at 10 am at Mittagong await the arrival of A RMS examiner ( never turned up btw) … drover around Mittagong Hill top and Bowral then tharnwas it paperworked signed and I had an HC licence … and that gave me some nonsense qualification as a truck driver here in NSW… I can’t recall the number but I have it somewhere … I was asked to reverse in straight line no couple uncouple etc … no reverse into a box … I assure you the standard of training in the UK is good … you don’t even need a medical for a Heavy Combination licence here in Australia … let along a DCPC, they still use log books and that is only if you are more than 100km as the crow flies from base… I will up load a pic of it when I can find the old A4 size log book. …
You are quite correct, qualifications are not needed as we all know but I can assure you drivers will learn far easier and the correct way using a good qualified instructor rather than an experienced lorry driver.There may be some experienced drivers who have never picked up bad driving habits over the years but in many years of training I have never met one yet. As I said and you said an experienced driver can and probably will get them through a test but the standard of driving will only relate to that experienced driver. IE his or her perception of road position (ask yourself how many lorries you see taking the complete wrong position everyday) keeping the correct distance from the vehicle in front (look at how many have no idea about that) how to join DC or mortorway correctly. I could go on but you only need to look at the standard of driving we have here in the Uk to see there is a big problem.You think it is good in the Uk? Well that tells me something. Even robroy agrees the standard is poor. I will say that a properly qualified instructor needs driving experience of driving trucks though. That was tried once and did not have the same sucess.
I would be interested to know the accident rate for trucks in Australia compared to UK? I would guess probably not as bas as roads less conjested out of cities.
When I passed my truck test class 2 in 2004, I was always told by my non qualified instructor, to always ensure the front o/s of the cab rides the line that will get your rear n/s around without hitting the kerb, of course it is not always the case and indeed times you would need to saddle both lanes etc … wide birth … you can’t compare Australia to the UK for accidents, ie, the main drag from Sydney to Melbourne is generally 2 lane free way … from, Sydney to Canberra is … I have never been past Canberra … the speed of trucks are 100km over here there are MC trucks etc … I have driven trucks in the UK and a few when I first moved to Australia in 2012… really is no difference … it’s all about the driver, situational awareness … forward planning and general common sense, you can teach people road positioning… I don’t claim to be a good driver, but I ensure I drive to standards expected, ie won’t use a phone, eat at wheel etc … good use of mirrors, I took my motorcycle test in 2013 over here, never rode road legal bikes before only off road bikes ., but, that improved my driving skills ten fold … I looked on the DVSA site, and the test maps are there so any decent driving instructor would be able to get 95% of people through… I very much doubt, that here is much difference between an instructor with a Rospa qualification to just a simple LGV licence … My mate back in London teaches, for a JSM, as a bus instructor ,l he has a very good pass rate yet, he has no qualifications … look at Stobart, claim to be so good yet, there trucks always stuck under bridges … it really is the driver not always the teacher.
Listen I understand fully what you are saying but let me give you an example. I was an HGV driver for many years driving all sorts of vehicles and like most thought I was fairly competent.(which I was) but when I did my LGV instructors course I realised there was far more to learn.I thought my knowledge of the HC was good but in reality like most it was not so good.I had developed habits which I had not realised till they were pointed out to me. Part of the training was learning how to put info across at the right time without confusing anyone and its not as easy as you think.
Unless you are very specific with the way you put things across it’s very easy for the other person to pick up the wrong idea. I am not the only one that has realised this after training.
Oh and I have heard unqualified drivers trying to teach others to reverse. Full volume…turn the wheel this way, now the other way, You are useless. Well sorry but these people do not have a clue how to train.Not saying they are all like that but I have heard quite a few from time to time.
There are many good drivers on our roads but in reality they could be much better. Too many think they canot be taught anymore.Too many have a bad attitude towards other road users and too many use their large vehicles aggressively.
jakethesnake:
There are many good drivers on our roads but in reality they could be much better. Too many think they canot be taught anymore.Too many have a bad attitude towards other road users and too many use their large vehicles aggressively.
To be honest, the drivers on our roads probably cannot be much better, because they are not particularly bad in the first place. It’s always a pathway to tyranny when people talk of inexorable improvements in behaviour which focus entirely on the individual (and which, by implication from the fact that most people have no power, refers purely to the self-control and personal choices of the individual).
The only effective way to reduce aggression on the roads is to reduce congestion, ensure drivers are well-rested, working moderate hours, and are on an unhurried and flexible schedule, barely any of which are under the control of the individual driver.
Or put another way, what we need is an improvement in the behaviour of managers of all kinds, who are always trying to offload onto others the consequences of the poor attitudes they bring to their roles and which cause others to be the victims of dysfunction and stress, and therein lies the answer to reduced aggression on the roads.
Rjan:
The only effective way to reduce aggression on the roads is to reduce congestion, ensure drivers are well-rested, working moderate hours, and are on an unhurried and flexible schedule, barely any of which are under the control of the individual driver.Or put another way, what we need is an improvement in the behaviour of managers of all kinds, who are always trying to offload onto others the consequences of the poor attitudes they bring to their roles and which cause others to be the victims of dysfunction and stress, and therein lies the answer to reduced aggression on the roads.
A man who talks sense. 
But it takes 2 to tango, drivers who are under this type of ridiculous pressure only have themselves to blame with their different types of attitudes that result in the consequences of stress.
We live in a society where Health and Safety is King…(or at least needs to be seen on the surface as being implemented, but usually only when it suits those that advocate it in the first place)
As a driver it should be used as a tool to stop all this pushing and being run ragged, by playing the driver fatigue card, and simply saying ‘‘No’’…but the spineless attitude of many drivers just makes the ‘‘pushers’’ push even more so.
Then the other side of the coin, we have the teararse crew 
…who do so even though they don’t have to ffs 
(I know of guys on salaries who run their motors like owner drivers, 2am starts, 15 hour days, fortnightly max outs, the other lads on the same firm, who do it at a sensible pace, get paid exactly the same 
…‘‘Keep it lit’’ , ‘‘Got to be first in the queue’’ and all that type of dog ■■■■…■■■■ idiots.
So not only the firms that need an attitude change, but also the drivers.
@Jake…There will never be absolute perfection with drivers no matter how good the training is, although I do agree that training needs to improve to at least raise the standards.
You are talking Jake as if you are training jet pilots, or Nuclear Sub skippers, don’t yet carried away mate, driving a truck aint rocket science, as long as you drive it with a certain degree of common sense, safety, and empathy, with a good degree of skill that is sufficient…the perfect driver you seek does not exist, and despite what you say there are still many good competent UK drivers around.
You will never achieve your ‘Trucking Nirvana’ where everybody is perfect with no bad habits, and no balls ups, we are only human beings, …but keep up your campaign anyway… 
Rjan:
jakethesnake:
There are many good drivers on our roads but in reality they could be much better. Too many think they canot be taught anymore.Too many have a bad attitude towards other road users and too many use their large vehicles aggressively.To be honest, the drivers on our roads probably cannot be much better, because they are not particularly bad in the first place. It’s always a pathway to tyranny when people talk of inexorable improvements in behaviour which focus entirely on the individual (and which, by implication from the fact that most people have no power, refers purely to the self-control and personal choices of the individual).
The only effective way to reduce aggression on the roads is to reduce congestion, ensure drivers are well-rested, working moderate hours, and are on an unhurried and flexible schedule, barely any of which are under the control of the individual driver.
Or put another way, what we need is an improvement in the behaviour of managers of all kinds, who are always trying to offload onto others the consequences of the poor attitudes they bring to their roles and which cause others to be the victims of dysfunction and stress, and therein lies the answer to reduced aggression on the roads.
Well Rjan, we all perceive things differently for sure. How can you say drivers cannot be much better? That is an absolutely ludicrous statement considering the poor standards of some drivers in this country. Even RR thinks there is great room for improvement. Look at the accident rate most of which are down to bad driving and human error. Of course drivers can improve.
I don’t know what age you are but when I was driving lorries in my 20’s 30’s and probably even in my 40’s I thought lorry drivers were the best thing since sliced bread and would blame everything else but them.Now I am older and retired I see things a little differently. I am not biased anymore like some on here seem to be.
You mention congestion may be part of the problem.Sorry but just because the road is conjested in not an excuse not to drive safely yet we see vehicles on motorways everyday nose to tail.
Most of the problem is driver attitude. I won’t ease off and leave a gap because someone will fill it. I am in a hurry to get a delivery done and want home so why should I slow down. That car should not be sitting in the middle lane so I will be aggressive to try and force him to move.
The congestion is only going to get worse for the time being and we cant do anything about that but we can all drive with a little more thought for safety and try to be a little bit more courteous to fellow road users.
Then you blame managers, yes we know some treat drivers appallingly sometimes but that should not give us an excuse to go out on the road and drive like a man possessed.Drivers need to take control of themselves and their driving and ignore any bully managers.
I will say however since I stopped driving trucks and drove my car up and down the UK on a regular basis for a while I did notice the bad truck drivers a lot more.I honestly don’t think you notice so much when in a truck.
While I am here there was recently a thread on lane hogging to which I added my tuppence worth. I said exactly the what I see it but because I mentioned elephant racing (which is fairly common)
no more was said. I think some drivers are in complete denial.
Anyway that is my opinion and my take on it and there are many who think exactly the same but thanks for your input although I just can’t see where you are coming from.
If you are from a younger generation lorry drivers years ago were known as “knights of the road” because of their manners and courteousy. They were not called that by lorry drivers either. It was the opinion of the general public. I am sure I don’t need to tell you their opinion now. It’s a real shame but like most things in life standards have progessively decreased and unfortunately there is no sign of any change to manners and attitude.
@Jake…There will never be absolute perfection with drivers no matter how good the training is, although I do agree that training needs to improve to at least raise the standards.
You are talking Jake as if you are training jet pilots, or Nuclear Sub skippers, don’t yet carried away mate, driving a truck aint rocket science, as long as you drive it with a certain degree of common sense, safety, and empathy, with a good degree of skill that is sufficient…the perfect driver you seek does not exist, and despite what you say there are still many good competent UK drivers around.
You will never achieve your ‘Trucking Nirvana’ where everybody is perfect with no bad habits, and no balls ups, we are only human beings, …but keep up your campaign anyway…
I agree with you mostly. Yes there are plenty good drivers but there are far too many bad ones.I know every driver will never be perfect,far from it but some certainly need to try a bit harder.
Yes I will keep up my campaign knowing it will change nothing but maybe someone somewhere one day might realise they are maybe not quite as good as they thought. and I am not talking about you.
jakethesnake:
Rjan:
…Well Rjan, we all perceive things differently for sure. How can you say drivers cannot be much better? That is an absolutely ludicrous statement considering the poor standards of some drivers in this country. Even RR thinks there is great room for improvement. Look at the accident rate most of which are down to bad driving and human error. Of course drivers can improve.
Drivers in Britain are already extremely competent and orderly by international standards. I’m not suggesting we abolish all existing training of course, but standards cannot improve infinitely through training. And that’s why I say it leads to tyranny.
I don’t know what age you are but when I was driving lorries in my 20’s 30’s and probably even in my 40’s I thought lorry drivers were the best thing since sliced bread and would blame everything else but them.Now I am older and retired I see things a little differently. I am not biased anymore like some on here seem to be.
I wouldn’t say I fall into either camp, or ever have. As one gets older, there is inevitably tens of thousands of hours of experience to draw upon, a history of mistakes that have checked our excesses, and a calmer temperament with which to manage difficult situations and people, and lower enthusiasm for unnecessary risks.
But you cannot distill much of this into training, any more so than you can distill much of the skill of an experienced swimmer into a training course that doesn’t involve water. We will be tryannised by those who think that you can.
And you cannot train the maturity of age either, nor would you wish to. When men usually reach their most cautious and responsible stage in their final years, they are also the least capable or amenable to driving lorries for the first time if they never have, and after the first bump (which inexperience causes) or the first maneouver they couldn’t manage (due to over-caution with inexperience) their confidence would be out for the count.
The supposed excesses of youth are the corollaries of what encourage people to get into it, to stick at it, and adapt all aspects of themselves to it, so that in their final years they have become cautious but also have a lifetime of experience that allows them to actually operate without undue risk and without frightening themselves.
You mention congestion may be part of the problem.Sorry but just because the road is conjested in not an excuse not to drive safely yet we see vehicles on motorways everyday nose to tail.
And this is how we arrive at tyranny, because I’m not producing excuses but stating causes. Sitting in congestion is not an immutable fact of life but the outcome of choices, made collectively or made by the powers that be. It’s actually a huge inefficiency given that it wastes huge amount of time and effort and is not done for enjoyment.
If poor driving is not an exception rarely seen which affects a tiny minority only, but something which is widespread amongst many involved in a particular activity, then that is the signal that there needs to be systemic change to relieve the dysfunctions.
Most of the problem is driver attitude. I won’t ease off and leave a gap because someone will fill it. I am in a hurry to get a delivery done and want home so why should I slow down. That car should not be sitting in the middle lane so I will be aggressive to try and force him to move.
But these “attitudes” are, in principle, part of a properly functioning road system of the kind that we have.
It’s pointed out that, with automated vehicles, if they simply ease off constantly or frightfully they will make no progress against the manual driver who is applying pressure. A judgment has to be made by a human in all the circumstances, and if drivers are trying to force in illegitimately then invading their space and forcing them to concentrate harder on their positioning is a way of imposing a penalty, or preventing their entry altogether and possibly setting them back substantially is another. It’s part of the normal regulatory behaviour of the system, and it’s a system that works vastly more efficiently than a system of automated vehicles (provided they operate under the same conditions of human resilience and adaptability, and are not all centrally coordinated and directed).
Most of us eventually come to a broad understanding with one another on the roads - driving with reasonable responsibility, finding times for courtesy, anticipating others behaviours, and sharing an understanding of difficulties.
That’s not to promote extreme or needlessly dangerous regulatory behaviours, or encourage people to be constant policemen. But regulatory behaviours also cannot be eliminated entirely without the dysfunctions they are destined to solve proliferating to excess.
The congestion is only going to get worse for the time being and we cant do anything about that but we can all drive with a little more thought for safety and try to be a little bit more courteous to fellow road users.
What a bizarre perspective on things. We cannot do anything about the problem of congestion (even though there is a very obvious solution, building more roads, but also many other solutions), and yet we can all do something about our reactions to this problem?
The reality is that when people don’t change their driving in adverse circumstances, you’ll no doubt demand more training, more police, more punishment, and therein lies the malignancy of your approach, because you start by saying there’s nothing we can do about the problem and we have nothing in our impoverished armoury but more self-control, but when that additional self-control is not forthcoming there is no limit to the amount of state resources that will be deployed, and amount of energy and attention people like yourself will bring to bear, to try and impose a form of control that does not fundamentally originate from the individual themselves.
Then you blame managers, yes we know some treat drivers appallingly sometimes but that should not give us an excuse to go out on the road and drive like a man possessed.Drivers need to take control of themselves and their driving and ignore any bully managers.
Why would managers allow themselves to be ignored? If managers could be ignored, then couldn’t I just collect a salary without even attending work?
Managers are not imposing pressure in ignorance, but to try and sweat out extra productivity and profit at everyone else’s expense. When the harassed driver jumps queues and demands on site to be tipped first, thus imposing extra waiting times on everyone else, the boss rubs his hands that he has saved an hour’s pay whilst making all his competitors pay for another hour each.
It is true that in applying such pressure the boss does not intend his driver to crash the wagon or engage in violence, but in applying that pressure he does so in defiance of the additional risk of causing accidents or inducing a final loss of control by a man who has been under constant pressure (pressure both from his boss, and by those trying to resist the behaviours that the driver’s boss does want to induce, such as queue jumping and shirty demands for faster service on sites).
Jeezzuz Rjan, where did that waffle come from, remind me not to take your medicine pal. You come across like Carryfast on drugs and that’s putting it mildly.
I would like to say that we will have to agree to disagree because my interpretation skills have gone missing somewhere.
jakethesnake:
You come across like Carryfast on drugs and that’s putting it mildly.
Yes the same has frequently occurred to me. The summary of it is “no” to higher standards that depend on more self-control or a punitive regime, and “yes” to higher standards that involve addressing the actual problems rather than our perfectly legitimate reactions to them.
Rjan:
jakethesnake:
You come across like Carryfast on drugs and that’s putting it mildly.Yes the same has frequently occurred to me. The summary of it is “no” to higher standards that depend on more self-control or a punitive regime, and “yes” to higher standards that involve addressing the actual problems rather than our perfectly legitimate reactions to them.
Nice one.