Not signing the treaty

[wheel_nut]

Actually the demise of the haulage industry was started in Poland and not by the Poles.

Maybe someone had a valid point.

Having achieved a foothold, Jews became involved in an increasing number of crafts over the course of the eighteenth century. They turned to new forms of skilled labour such as metalwork, haulage, carpentry, and soap and candle manufacture, fields in which Polish artisans had not yet organized into guilds.

In 1816, the royal commissioner of Congress in Poland repealed the law requiring artisans to belong to guilds, thus introducing freedom of occupation in skilled labour. As a result, Jews were able to enter any trade they wished. Subsequently, Jewish artisans began to experiment with new forms of skilled labour, though they generally confined themselves to fields that did not require formal training and did not entail large capital outlays. They therefore opted for professions associated with the leather industry (especially shoemaking) and transport.

So the Poles have more room to moan than we have as their haulage industry was taken over too, and then they were embroiled in a war that they didn’t want.

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:
Actually the demise of the haulage industry was started in Poland and not by the Poles.

Maybe someone had a valid point.

Having achieved a foothold, Jews became involved in an increasing number of crafts over the course of the eighteenth century. They turned to new forms of skilled labour such as metalwork, haulage, carpentry, and soap and candle manufacture, fields in which Polish artisans had not yet organized into guilds.

Blimey so all those reports,of a Polish horse drawn wagon,being driven by a Polish jewish wagon driver/carpenter and part time Rabbi,being caught for cabotage and illegal employment here,while hauling wood used to build the Victory,were true.

[orys]

Carryfast:
Blimey so all those reports,of a Polish horse drawn wagon,being driven by a Polish jewish wagon driver/carpenter and part time Rabbi,being caught for cabotage and illegal employment here,while hauling wood used to build the Victory,were true.

Obviously I was right when I said that it’s not true, that deterioration of British Haulage Industry started with influx of Poles in 2004 - we were doing it for ages

Poland - screwing British Transport since 1816!

Edited: Oh, screwing is not [zb] word? Good to know!

[carryfast]

orys:

Carryfast:
Blimey so all those reports,of a Polish horse drawn wagon,being driven by a Polish jewish wagon driver/carpenter and part time Rabbi,being caught for cabotage and illegal employment here,while hauling wood used to build the Victory,were true.

Obviously I was right when I said that it’s not true, that deterioration of British Haulage Industry started with influx of Poles in 2004 - we were doing it for ages

Poland - screwing British Transport since 1816!

Edited: Oh, screwing is not [zb] word? Good to know!

No orys ‘eighteenth century’ when the Victory was built was long before 1816.By that point the yanks had already zb’d us twice after getting us to find the place then build it for them and then chucking us out just like the Ozzies did a bit later.

[orys]

Carryfast:
No orys ‘eighteenth century’ when the Victory was built was long before 1816.By that point the yanks had already zb’d us twice afeter getting us to find the place then build it for them and then chucking us out just like the Ozzies did a bit later.

Obviously benefits from being a British Colony are not so great as you tried to tell me the other day

[carryfast]

orys:

Carryfast:
No orys ‘eighteenth century’ when the Victory was built was long before 1816.By that point the yanks had already zb’d us twice afeter getting us to find the place then build it for them and then chucking us out just like the Ozzies did a bit later.

Obviously benefits from being a British Colony are not so great as you tried to tell me the other day

Not that orys it’s just that they waited for us to spend a fortune on getting the place up and running and then told us to zb off so they could take everything we’d gone there for,for themselves.Although that zb German ■■■■■■ King George’s taxation policies didn’t help.

[orys]

Carryfast:
Not that orys it’s just that they waited for us to spend a fortune on getting the place up and running and then told us to zb off so they could take everything we’d gone there for,for themselves.Although that zb German ■■■■■■ King George’s taxation policies didn’t help.

Or they were fed up with people back here milking them from the fruits of the hard work they did at the other end of the world

As usual, it all depends from your point of view

[carryfast]

orys:

Carryfast:
Not that orys it’s just that they waited for us to spend a fortune on getting the place up and running and then told us to zb off so they could take everything we’d gone there for,for themselves.Although that zb German ■■■■■■ King George’s taxation policies didn’t help.

Or they were fed up with people back here milking them from the fruits of the hard work they did at the other end of the world

As usual, it all depends from your point of view

They weren’t really getting ‘milked’ by that German zb any more than we were.Most of the tax was to pay for the Navy anyway and if it wasn’t for that the French and the Spanish would have got the place instead.

But it would have been interesting if we’d all have gone to America and left this place to anyone who wanted it.It’s my bet in that case that they’d most of the immigrants would have then chosen to be with us in the States instead and none of them would have wanted to come here.

It’s ironic how so many people say that we’re no good but they all want to live amongst us.

Having said that would as many people have wanted to emigrate to North America over the years if the Spanish had got the place and turned it all into zb Mexico.

[happy_keith]

Carryfast:
‘…It’s ironic how so many people say that we’re no good but they all want to live amongst us…’

Isn’t ‘…living amongst us…’ a pre-requisite in order to milk us dry both financially & morally (whilst Cool Britannia capitulated spiritually years ago)?

[carryfast]

Happy Keith:

Carryfast:
‘…It’s ironic how so many people say that we’re no good but they all want to live amongst us…’

Isn’t ‘…living amongst us…’ a pre-requisite in order to milk us dry both financially & morally

Exactly.Parasites the lot of em.

^ +1

[orys]

Carryfast:

Happy Keith:

Carryfast:
‘…It’s ironic how so many people say that we’re no good but they all want to live amongst us…’

Isn’t ‘…living amongst us…’ a pre-requisite in order to milk us dry both financially & morally

Exactly.Parasites the lot of em.

^ +1

Yeah, I know your opinion.

The problem is that your opinions are based on information given to you by British media. And how it’s work?

This is an interesting example, from the Island next to yours:

broadsheet.ie/2012/02/01/ouch-2/

Now: do you trust the papers YOU read?

This is why I got involved in all these discussion: I think you are misinformed about the situation. So since I have more knowledge of the subject (for example: because I read both Polish and British papers) I am trying to share my knowledge with you. (well, it is pointless in some cases, but I think in general this might be helpful)

In that particular example from Ireland it just happens that I am participating in a discussion under original article. Yeah, one can agree that unemployed people could do more than the people from the article (as the article is not only about Magda), but most of them still do more than some unemployed Britons I know. And there is another thing to add: the cultural background which would not be understandable for British or Irish reader. In short words: the idea of the article is to show to Poles that unlike Poland, some countries are actually doing something to help their residents who struggle to find a job. The title of the article translated to “I love you, unemployment” but there is certain meaning lost in translation: the thing is not that they love to be uneployed, but that they love to be uneployed in Britain when they compare to how to be unemployed in Poland. Its hard for me even to explain, maybe I try different way: for the unemployed to be unemployed in Ireland is a paradise. But this is still unemployment, maybe the best kind of unemployment, but still a crap situation.

[carryfast]

orys:

Carryfast:

Happy Keith:

Carryfast:
‘…It’s ironic how so many people say that we’re no good but they all want to live amongst us…’

Isn’t ‘…living amongst us…’ a pre-requisite in order to milk us dry both financially & morally

Exactly.Parasites the lot of em.

^ +1

Yeah, I know your opinion.

The problem is that your opinions are based on information given to you by British media. And how it’s work?

This is an interesting example, from the Island next to yours:

broadsheet.ie/2012/02/01/ouch-2/

Now: do you trust the papers YOU read?

This is why I got involved in all these discussion: I think you are misinformed about the situation. So since I have more knowledge of the subject (for example: because I read both Polish and British papers) I am trying to share my knowledge with you. (well, it is pointless in some cases, but I think in general this might be helpful)

In that particular example from Ireland it just happens that I am participating in a discussion under original article. Yeah, one can agree that unemployed people could do more than the people from the article (as the article is not only about Magda), but most of them still do more than some unemployed Britons I know. And there is another thing to add: the cultural background which would not be understandable for British or Irish reader. In short words: the idea of the article is to show to Poles that unlike Poland, some countries are actually doing something to help their residents who struggle to find a job. The title of the article translated to “I love you, unemployment” but there is certain meaning lost in translation: the thing is not that they love to be uneployed, but that they love to be uneployed in Britain when they compare to how to be unemployed in Poland. Its hard for me even to explain, maybe I try different way: for the unemployed to be unemployed in Ireland is a paradise. But this is still unemployment, maybe the best kind of unemployment, but still a crap situation.

Suggest you check out the £25,000 benefits cap topic.Firstly if we’ve got a North American type private insurance funded system and if we left the EU and only employed indigenous workers but ‘if’ the job is taken by a foreign worker it has to remain advertised and if an indigenous worker wants it the foreign worker goes home,the problem probably wouldn’t exist.

However the Irish rules are obviously different to the British ones.In which walking off the job won’t entitle you to any benefits whatsoever and the same would probably apply in regards to a privately funded redundancy and sickness income protection scheme.So it’s not surprising that Ireland is high on the list of east european parasites trying to take advantage of the Irish civilised attitudes to unemployment benefits.

Maybe they wouldn’t be so keen on leaving Poland if those country’s,with state funded systems,made it so that foreign workers can only claim at the rate they’d be paid at home in just the same way that British pensioners can’t claim German pensions only British ones if they move to Germany when they retire.While even Scotland won’t pay Scottish benefits to English immigrants to Scotland such as in the case of student fees or long term care costs for the elderly .

But just like most things concerning the so called global free market economy the fact is we’re importing labour that we don’t need from other countries when we’ve got plenty of labour of our own so we don’t need it.Especially when it results in the situation of paying unemployment benefits to our own people,while foreign workers take the jobs and reduce wages,and then claim on the state funded social security system in addition to our own workers,while taxes to pay them all are reducing because of the reduction in wages caused by the oversupply of the labour market.

[orys]

As usual, you completely missed what I was talking about and speaking about something completely different. Don’t blame you, we all know you and since what I wrote is not in line with your opinions, you just choosed to wholeheartly ignore it and write more of your stuff instead

For the record: I was poiting out that media like to sell you crap about Poles, even if its far from truth, because they know that it will sell well amongst you and your kind. Sadly, this damages opinion on Eastern Europeans amongst people, who don’t know much on the subject, and since they cannot check by themselves what the truth is, they have to believe in what is fed to them by media.

I wasn’t completely refering to the situation described in the article, I was just talking about the journalistic side of the case.

But I read your stuff anyway and have few comments:

Carryfast:
Suggest you check out the £25,000 benefits cap topic.Firstly if we’ve got a North American type private insurance funded system and if we left the EU and only employed indigenous workers but ‘if’ the job is taken by a foreign worker it has to remain advertised and if an indigenous worker wants it the foreign worker goes home,the problem probably wouldn’t exist.

Yeah, the problem would be lack of labour. Because who would like to move to the country when he is second category citizen and can’t even have a secure job?

However the Irish rules are obviously different to the British ones.In which walking off the job won’t entitle you to any benefits whatsoever and the same would probably apply in regards to a privately funded redundancy and sickness income protection scheme.So it’s not surprising that Ireland is high on the list of east european parasites trying to take advantage of the Irish civilised attitudes to unemployment benefits.

Thank you for proving that you completely ignored what my link is about as you are happy with “irish version” since is going in-line with your opinions

Maybe they wouldn’t be so keen on leaving Poland if those country’s,with state funded systems,made it so that foreign workers can only claim at the rate they’d be paid at home

This is exactly how it is in the moment. If you move to another country you can only claim benefits as high, as they are in your country. This is why Poland used to be fav holiday destination for many British benefit scroungers: they were going there and claiming their British benefit which at this time was giving them enourmous buying power. Sadly for them while amount was British, rules were Polish, so after three months the benfits were withdrawn from them.

in just the same way that British pensioners can’t claim German pensions only British ones if they move to Germany when they retire.

Unless they were working in Germany. Its the same with uneployment benefit: to claim them on local rules you have to work in the country for set minimum period of time. In case of UK it’s two years - which absolutely makes sense, after two years of working one can become a valued member of the society, settle here and has the same costs of life as any of his neighbours.

Currently While even Scotland won’t pay Scottish benefits to English immigrants to Scotland such as in the case of student fees or long term care costs for the elderly .

This has nothing to do with EU - deals between Scotland and England are yoru internal mater. As for international rules it works on mutual basis: if the Scottish studens is treated in said country as local, the student from this country is treated as a Scottish. I have my fees paid no problem as Scotish students can study in Poland for free as Poles do. But at the same time I have no chance for other students benefits as I haven’t been living in Scotland for long enough to gain right to it before I started my uni. I am perfectly happy with that.

But just like most things concerning the so called global free market economy the fact is we’re importing labour that we don’t need from other countries when we’ve got plenty of labour of our own so we don’t need it.Especially when it results in the situation of paying unemployment benefits to our own people,while foreign workers take the jobs and reduce wages,and then claim on the state funded social security system in addition to our own workers,while taxes to pay them all are reducing because of the reduction in wages caused by the oversupply of the labour market.

My solution to this problem is if you stop paying benefits to people who are just too lazy to work. Then they will have to rise their bums from the coaches, stop watching Jeremy Kyle show and drink Cider every day and when they all start to work there will be not much place left for foreigners. Simples.

In Poland if you quit work, you have your jobseekers paid for 3 months, if you are made redundant, for six months. And guess what? This proved to be the best method to help people getting back to work. If you know that in few months you will have nothing to put in your pot, you just go and search for job. And if you search for job, you will find one, even in Poland where unemployment is higher than in UK.

[carryfast]

orys:
As usual, you completely missed what I was talking about and speaking about something completely different. Don’t blame you, we all know you and since what I wrote is not in line with your opinions, you just choosed to wholeheartly ignore it and write more of your stuff instead

For the record: I was poiting out that media like to sell you crap about Poles, even if its far from truth, because they know that it will sell well amongst you and your kind. Sadly, this damages opinion on Eastern Europeans amongst people, who don’t know much on the subject, and since they cannot check by themselves what the truth is, they have to believe in what is fed to them by media.

I wasn’t completely refering to the situation described in the article, I was just talking about the journalistic side of the case.

But I read your stuff anyway and have few comments:

Carryfast:
Suggest you check out the £25,000 benefits cap topic.Firstly if we’ve got a North American type private insurance funded system and if we left the EU and only employed indigenous workers but ‘if’ the job is taken by a foreign worker it has to remain advertised and if an indigenous worker wants it the foreign worker goes home,the problem probably wouldn’t exist.

Yeah, the problem would be lack of labour. Because who would like to move to the country when he is second category citizen and can’t even have a secure job?

However the Irish rules are obviously different to the British ones.In which walking off the job won’t entitle you to any benefits whatsoever and the same would probably apply in regards to a privately funded redundancy and sickness income protection scheme.So it’s not surprising that Ireland is high on the list of east european parasites trying to take advantage of the Irish civilised attitudes to unemployment benefits.

Thank you for proving that you completely ignored what my link is about as you are happy with “irish version” since is going in-line with your opinions

Maybe they wouldn’t be so keen on leaving Poland if those country’s,with state funded systems,made it so that foreign workers can only claim at the rate they’d be paid at home

This is exactly how it is in the moment. If you move to another country you can only claim benefits as high, as they are in your country. This is why Poland used to be fav holiday destination for many British benefit scroungers: they were going there and claiming their British benefit which at this time was giving them enourmous buying power. Sadly for them while amount was British, rules were Polish, so after three months the benfits were withdrawn from them.

in just the same way that British pensioners can’t claim German pensions only British ones if they move to Germany when they retire.

Unless they were working in Germany. Its the same with uneployment benefit: to claim them on local rules you have to work in the country for set minimum period of time. In case of UK it’s two years - which absolutely makes sense, after two years of working one can become a valued member of the society, settle here and has the same costs of life as any of his neighbours.

Currently While even Scotland won’t pay Scottish benefits to English immigrants to Scotland such as in the case of student fees or long term care costs for the elderly .

This has nothing to do with EU - deals between Scotland and England are yoru internal mater. As for international rules it works on mutual basis: if the Scottish studens is treated in said country as local, the student from this country is treated as a Scottish. I have my fees paid no problem as Scotish students can study in Poland for free as Poles do. But at the same time I have no chance for other students benefits as I haven’t been living in Scotland for long enough to gain right to it before I started my uni. I am perfectly happy with that.

But just like most things concerning the so called global free market economy the fact is we’re importing labour that we don’t need from other countries when we’ve got plenty of labour of our own so we don’t need it.Especially when it results in the situation of paying unemployment benefits to our own people,while foreign workers take the jobs and reduce wages,and then claim on the state funded social security system in addition to our own workers,while taxes to pay them all are reducing because of the reduction in wages caused by the oversupply of the labour market.

My solution to this problem is if you stop paying benefits to people who are just too lazy to work. Then they will have to rise their bums from the coaches, stop watching Jeremy Kyle show and drink Cider every day and when they all start to work there will be not much place left for foreigners. Simples.

In Poland if you quit work, you have your jobseekers paid for 3 months, if you are made redundant, for six months. And guess what? This proved to be the best method to help people getting back to work. If you know that in few months you will have nothing to put in your pot, you just go and search for job. And if you search for job, you will find one, even in Poland where unemployment is higher than in UK.

Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be saying that the Polish etc etc can come over here and then dictate to us how to run our benefits system and then to add insult to injury you’re saying that we need the Polish workers because without them there would be a shortage in the labour market and all of those who are unemployed at present are only unemployed because they want to be and that the claimants are just a load of lazy zb’s .

But you’re saying that it’s got zb all to do with the fact that it’s the British employers who are just trying to saturate the labour market to create a situation of high supply of labour relative to demand.

When what I’m saying is that we need the opposite situation of low supply of labour together with high demand for it’s services which creates a high wage environment and low unemployment which creates further growth in the economy because of the spending power it provides in the economy.

In addition to which as I’ve managed to explain to landylad who shared your view (until I explained the issues) what’s needed is a private insurance based system of redundancy and sickness cover for workers which is a lot better than anything the state can provide here (and probably Ireland or Poland) in which a claim is a private matter between the insured and the insurer according to the terms of the policy and would have zb all to do with you or anyone else.

In addition to which we need to get rid of all the foreign workers so that we can offer our own workers the jobs and pay them properly for doing them so that they can afford the insurance premiums for all of the private insurance needed when they opt out of the zb commie state social security system.In which case it won’t matter what happens when the east europeans come over here because they wouldn’t get a work permit and they wouldn’t be able to claim on the non existent social security system anyway even if they wanted to.

But it’s not surprising that you seem to be coming out with the same tired old bs relied on by all those who benefit from importing cheap labour here that there’s loads of jobs and we need all these foreign workers here because there’s not enough British workers.

When the facts show that unemployment amongst our own young people is rising,wage levels are falling behind prices,therefore spending power in the economy is reducing and growth in the economy is therefore contracting and immigrant workers are being added to the benefit requirements of the present state funded zb up of a social security system while telling our own people that if Poles claim it’s because they have to but if the British claim it’s because they’d rather claim the pittance of Jobseekers Allowance than go to work and earn a (decent) living.

You must be having a laugh.

[orys]

Carryfast:
Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be saying that the Polish etc etc can come over here and then dictate to us how to run our benefits system and then to add insult to injury you’re saying that we need the Polish workers because without them there would be a shortage in the labour market and all of those who are unemployed at present are only unemployed because they want to be and that the claimants are just a load of lazy zb’s .

You wrong, as usual.

I told you that as long as you will be paying benefit to people for infinite amount of time, there will be always a group of these, who would not want to work. And that because it cost, you will not only have them out of work, but you will need more people working to support them.

This is the case of ANY country.

But you’re saying that it’s got zb all to do with the fact that it’s the British employers who are just trying to saturate the labour market to create a situation of high supply of labour relative to demand.

Well, I am glad that this time you tried to read what I wrote. Now, try again, as I have no time to explain again what I wrote above

When what I’m saying is that we need the opposite situation of low supply of labour together with high demand for it’s services which creates a high wage environment and low unemployment which creates further growth in the economy because of the spending power it provides in the economy.

Thank you for that truism

In addition to which as I’ve managed to explain to landylad who shared your view (until I explained the issues) what’s needed is a private insurance based system of redundancy and sickness cover for workers which is a lot better than anything the state can provide here (and probably Ireland or Poland) in which a claim is a private matter between the insured and the insurer according to the terms of the policy and would have zb all to do with you or anyone else.

Isn’t the system they have in America?

In addition to which we need to get rid of all the foreign workers so that we can offer our own workers the jobs and pay them properly for doing them so that they can afford the insurance premiums for all of the private insurance needed when they opt out of the zb commie state social security system.In which case it won’t matter what happens when the east europeans come over here because they wouldn’t get a work permit and they wouldn’t be able to claim on the non existent social security system anyway even if they wanted to.

Oh the drama. Tell me, who would like to come to the country which produces a lot of overpriced stuff and has no place to sell it to? You know, if you won’t be able to sell your stuff, you won’t be able to pay youir own worker even improperly

But it’s not surprising that you seem to be coming out with the same tired old bs relied on by all those who benefit from importing cheap labour here that there’s loads of jobs and we need all these foreign workers here because there’s not enough British workers.

I never said you need all of them. But you need some of them, if you want to be able to pay retirement to your old people. And if some of your own people choosed to work instead of sitting on benefits, you would be needing even less of them

When the facts show that unemployment amongst our own young people is rising,wage levels are falling behind prices,therefore spending power in the economy is reducing and growth in the economy is therefore contracting and immigrant workers are being added to the benefit requirements of the present state funded zb up of a social security system while telling our own people that if Poles claim it’s because they have to but if the British claim it’s because they’d rather claim the pittance of Jobseekers Allowance than go to work and earn a (decent) living.

I don’t know, did you read any papers recently in which you can read some news from outside britain other than British Tourist Being In Danger and British Soldiers In Afganistan? Try, you will find, that unemployment amongst young people is common problem for all european countries.

As for your ■■■■■■■■: I never said that Poles claim benefits only if they have to while Britons only when they choose to. In both nation there will be always a group of people who are too lazy to work, and group of people who are struggling to find a job. I was just speaking that in this one particular article from Irish press they lie about what was written in one particular article in Polish press.

Saying that the statistics show that per each 1000 there is much less Poles claiming any benefits than your own people. Also unemployment amongst Polish community in UK is lower than amongst your own people. Off course we have to take into account that some of them went home, but we also have to remember that many of them speak very poor or none at all English, so it’s much harder for them to find a job here than it would be for your own people, if they would get back to earth and take the job thats available to them instead of waiting for the one which meets their expectations of (decent) living wage.

You must be having a laugh.

Well, yes, actually I am laughing. You are very amusing.

Thats it from me for today, good night.

[carryfast]

orys:
who would like to come to the country which produces a lot of overpriced stuff and has no place to sell it to? You know, if you won’t be able to sell your stuff, you won’t be able to pay youir own worker even improperly

unemployment amongst young people is common problem for all european countries.

Also unemployment amongst Polish community in UK is lower than amongst your own people.

We’ve already got the situation of being in a country that’s importing a load of stuff and not making enough stuff and no place to sell any of it here because there’s not enough spending power in the economy to buy the stuff and we’ve got a massive trade deficit of imports over exports.Most of our exports are bought by markets which we’ve already had to subsidise (either by importing stuff from them we don’t need or by direct foreign aid) to buy them.So effectively we’re paying them first to buy our exports anyway.

Even if there was more stuff being sold here the trade deficit would just sink the country even faster because the only way that anyone can buy the imported stuff is with borrowed money from the country that exported it like zb China and the only way that China can afford to buy anything from us is by using the money that we’ve given them first to buy stuff off them that we didn’t even need in the first place because we could be making it for ourselves instead.

The result is recession and contraction of the economy and to add insult to injury we’re still importing foreign labour to do the jobs that should be offered to our own people,which not only adds to the unemployment numbers but causes wage levels to drop even further which just causes less spending power in the economy and therefore deeper recession.

Unemployment among young people isn’t as common,as usual,in Germany as it is here.Probably because the Germans still actually make stuff for themselves instead of importing as much stuff that they don’t need to instead.

The fact that unemployment amongst Polish people here is less than our own people is the problem.It’s just that we disagree about the reasons.It doesn’t take a genius to understand that there’s not much point in British employers importing cheap labour if they then shoot themselves in the foot by not employing the cheap labour,instead of our own people, when the foreign cheap labour gets here.

[carryfast]

Carryfast:

limeyphil:
the ■■■■ party,

Or to put it another way the whole thing is just a run by a load of zb German parasites just as if the zb’s had won WW2.So much for Cameron’s ‘Veto’.When what he ‘would’ have said,if he’s really in it for the national interest,is zb em we’re out of here.But that would have needed Farage to be PM not that tory zb Cameron and his commie mate Clegg.

bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 … 3_04_2012/

24.18-24.29