stevieboy308:
hello all,seeing as winseer keeps banging on about firms the don’t pay for your time that’s spent on POA, but then it seems he doesn’t know of any
does anyone out there know of any firms that don’t pay POA.
now there’s every chance there’ll be a handful in the country, but i don’t believe it’s a widespread issue like he likes to make out, but you never know!
I’ve never heard of any personally.
Juddian:
AlexWignall:
Juddian:
Proper salaried jobs don’t recognise POA so none booked, 48 hours is plenty.You’re probably right if you work in a call centre…
Even the most ‘perfect’ job in haulage might suffer the odd delay now and again.
W
Nope, we don’t use POA at all and the company wouldn’t recognise it if we did.
Long day due to delay?, probably get a 7 hour shift the next day or the one after…they don’t want 80 hour a week zombies at the wheel, which suits me.
Long day due to delay? If you are given a time when that delay might end. The time on duty while waiting for the delay to resolve itself is POA.
It’s good that you’ll be given a shorter shift the next day. It proves that during part of the day before was a Period Of Availabilty for work.
I can’t really see the difference between a driver who waits at ASDA with break selected and the one that does the same on POA. If both are still behind the wheel for eighty hours a week it’s no good for anyone.
W
Perhaps I should be bleating about this odd concept of “planners” rather than POA…
Essentially, if you are a salaried worker, you should be salaried for 36-48 hours (let’s say 40) with OT/Days off in lieu coming into play if you go above that.
You’re looking at 5 day weeks of 8 hours, 4 day weeks of 12 hours or even 6 day weeks of 6 hours. Not great if you have to commute, but I’m sure everyone has seen such shift patterns somewhere.
RM has patterns like this, and others all over the place ,with days off midweek, 4 hours on a saturday morning, etc etc. You are making up your 40 hours in effect.
Now, if you have some “planner” that’ll be putting you on a 5-6-5-6 days per week pattern with 12-15 hours a day EVERY day, mis-using POA as to get around the drivers regs BUT then not counting those hours as part of your “aggregate”, THEN you’ll find yourself working the 84+ hours of which I bang on about for only 48 hours of pay. OR officially being on duty 84 hours (which I suggest is illegal) which would indicicate a very low base hourly rate indeed.
RM don’t recognise POA, but they do really, since if you have an 8 hour duty, and you get stuck somewhere for 4 hours, and book off after 12, you’ll be booking some overtime - so in fact, RM DO pay POA at better rates than many in effect. What they mean by “not recognising” I think is the management use of POA to effectively extend the working day to silly lengths without having to dish out any extra money.
You might re-word this as “RM don’t recognise running bent”! 
Kinda makes them look a head and shoulders above certain other firms hmm? 
Fatboy slimslow:
stevieboy308:
But i don’t believe it’s a widespread issue like he likes to make out, but you never know!why would you be bothered? I thought you’ve not turned a wheel for four years!
it’s a fiddle, ENDEX!
Many firms FORCE THEIR DRIVERS to use it illegally, some don’t recognise it and vosa are clamping down on it! It doesn’t take the brains of an archbishop to work out, after reading posts on here does it? StobRat threaten drivers they’ll be sent home with no pay, blah, blah, blah!
Totally agree.
It’s harder to name the firms NOT doing this, than those that do isn’t it? 
I’ve said before that one is on duty from the time one walks into the workplace, to the time one walks out of it. This is where the 84 hours on duty would be recorded, whilst a perhaps falsified isotrack/tacho data hides the driving staff having been on duty for more than 48 hours. I keep getting told “I don’t understand basic driving regs” and all, but this all seems like a sleight-of-hand con to me that gets more unpaid hours per week out of each and every driver involved. I stand by my suggestions that being on duty silly hours week in and week out is wrong, and increases the annual death toll as well as shortens wages. 
How 7 day trampers operate (ie 2 days at the weekend laid up for the 45 hour weekly rest) and keep getting away with it escapes me.
If you are living in your cab, then how the hell does that count as 45 hours weekly rest? Away from home, family, etc?
It has been MADE legal by the firm “not paying” - thus the definition of “off duty” has become “not being paid” rather than “gone home for the day/weekend”.
I reckon Agencies don’t give out 7 day tramps around here because they’d be paying us for 168 hours! - Even at minimum wage, that’s over a grand a week!
To everyone else out there aiding and abetting the “long hours” culture of transport I say this:
Running bent = conning yourself, risking your licence, and helping the firm who then won’t help you once you’re caught.
Mark my words, a crackdown is coming. 
Fatboy slimslow:
stevieboy308:
But i don’t believe it’s a widespread issue like he likes to make out, but you never know!why would you be bothered? I thought you’ve not turned a wheel for four years!
Many firms FORCE THEIR DRIVERS to use it illegally, some don’t recognise it and vosa are clamping down on it! It doesn’t take the brains of an archbishop to work out, after reading posts on here does it? StobRat threaten drivers they’ll be sent home with no pay, blah, blah, blah!
Totally agree.
It’s harder to name the firms NOT doing this, than those that do isn’t it?
I’ve said before that one is on duty from the time one walks into the workplace, to the time one walks out of it. This is where the 84 hours on duty would be recorded, whilst a perhaps falsified isotrack/tacho data hides the driving staff having been on duty for more than 48 hours. I keep getting told “I don’t understand basic driving regs” and all, but this all seems like a sleight-of-hand con to me that gets more unpaid hours per week out of each and every driver involved. I stand by my suggestions that being on duty silly hours week in and week out is wrong, and increases the annual death toll as well as shortens wages.
How 7 day trampers operate (ie 2 days at the weekend laid up for the 45 hour weekly rest) and keep getting away with it escapes me.
If you are living in your cab, then how the hell does that count as 45 hours weekly rest? Away from home, family, etc?
It has been MADE legal by the firm “not paying” - thus the definition of “off duty” has become “not being paid” rather than “gone home for the day/weekend”.
I reckon Agencies don’t give out 7 day tramps around here because they’d be paying us for 168 hours! - Even at minimum wage, that’s over a grand a week!
To everyone else out there aiding and abetting the “long hours” culture of transport I say this:
Running bent = conning yourself, risking your licence, and helping the firm who then won’t help you once you’re caught.
Mark my words, a crackdown is coming.
Oh it’s like ground hog day.
Mr winseer, when you live in an area without an abundance of jobs, you find that you might have to travel some distance to your workplace. In my case it’s about 40 minutes by car to the yard. I’m not going to commute that everyday.
Secondly the main part of my job is hauling woodchip from Lockerbie to chirk. I generally reload out of Manchester to go back to Lockerbie. Ok I can do this in my legal driving hours. Lets say 9 hours driving,.queuing to load, queuing to tip, querying to reload, querying to tip the second load…makes it for arguments sake 12 hours, add two breaks and it’s a13 hour day. Add commuting time and it’s over 14 hours.
Ooop north is probably a bit different to your ride tinted life of 8 hour shifts.
Winseer:
Perhaps I should be bleating about this odd concept of “planners” rather than POA…Essentially, if you are a salaried worker, you should be salaried for 36-48 hours (let’s say 40) with OT/Days off in lieu coming into play if you go above that.
You’re looking at 5 day weeks of 8 hours, 4 day weeks of 12 hours or even 6 day weeks of 6 hours. Not great if you have to commute, but I’m sure everyone has seen such shift patterns somewhere.
RM has patterns like this, and others all over the place ,with days off midweek, 4 hours on a saturday morning, etc etc. You are making up your 40 hours in effect.Now, if you have some “planner” that’ll be putting you on a 5-6-5-6 days per week pattern with 12-15 hours a day EVERY day, mis-using POA as to get around the drivers regs BUT then not counting those hours as part of your “aggregate”, THEN you’ll find yourself working the 84+ hours of which I bang on about for only 48 hours of pay. OR officially being on duty 84 hours (which I suggest is illegal) which would indicicate a very low base hourly rate indeed.
RM don’t recognise POA, but they do really, since if you have an 8 hour duty, and you get stuck somewhere for 4 hours, and book off after 12, you’ll be booking some overtime - so in fact, RM DO pay POA at better rates than many in effect. What they mean by “not recognising” I think is the management use of POA to effectively extend the working day to silly lengths without having to dish out any extra money.
You might re-word this as “RM don’t recognise running bent”!Kinda makes them look a head and shoulders above certain other firms hmm?
please explain how 84 hours is illegal?
please explain the bit about RM again, as you say they don’t, they do, then they don’t
please give multiple examples of people doing up to 84 hours but only getting paid for 48, on a hourly pay basis to keep it simple.
please give a link to where it says you can’t get paid if off duty
i agree with you about getting paid from when you turn up to when you go home, although i have no issue with firms that deduct one break, if it gets deducted then i’ll take it when and where i want.
the salary thing, back in the day a salary bought up to your max hours unless otherwise stated, then it came in you need to average 48 working hours, so you can look at it as not being paid for POA or still paid up to maximums, but get to go home early if needs be to keep the average in check. it’ll come down to what it says in the contract
If you get paid for POA then you are at work and it is just a fiddle to allow longer hours, I always thought it was…
happysack:
Oh it’s like ground hog day.Mr winseer, when you live in an area without an abundance of jobs, you find that you might have to travel some distance to your workplace. In my case it’s about 40 minutes by car to the yard. I’m not going to commute that everyday.
Secondly the main part of my job is hauling woodchip from Lockerbie to chirk. I generally reload out of Manchester to go back to Lockerbie. Ok I can do this in my legal driving hours. Lets say 9 hours driving,.queuing to load, queuing to tip, querying to reload, querying to tip the second load…makes it for arguments sake 12 hours, add two breaks and it’s a13 hour day. Add commuting time and it’s over 14 hours.
Ooop north is probably a bit different to your ride tinted life of 8 hour shifts.
Who said anything about 8 hour shifts?
I’d rather do two 15 hour shifts per week average… Sometimes I might to 5x8 sure, and sometimes near Christmas I might even do 5x12.
If I’m commuting (upto 90 minutes each way to some of my workplaces) then I’m going to be wanting fewer but longer shifts to save my fuel costs right?
If it’s a job nearby (eg medway valley), I’m happy to do the flat 8, and maybe make a bit of time on it (you can’t seem to make time otherwise) Only had 2 weeks of 8 hour shifts so far this year though!
In this part of the world, there are still no full time jobs to be had (seen 3 so far this year advertised) but people have totally crippling mortgages, myself included. No doubt being on “interest only” makes me some kind of “sponger from bank savers” yet again, as it seems only “working 25 hours a day and going to work an hour before I go to bed” is going to roll-back this label I seem to have acquired for myself.
I’ve yet to do a single shift on agency in the town where I live. I often need to leave the Medway towns all, and commute to places like Dartford, Tonbridge, and even on occasions Central London to pick up a shift that meets my fussy high standards! The nearest regular workplace to me is probably Aylesford/Snodland/New Hythe (medway valley) where I’ll usually be seen pulling a fridge for whoever’s got the hours that week.
If you don’t insist, you don’t get - simples.
I’ll jump through my share of hoops to get everything else the way I want it. In return, the agency gets to call me short notice to pick up the kind of long shift that no one else can do 'cos they’re already out of hours that week!
I’ve ■■■■■■ my wife off rather than the agency this last month put it that way… I’m a bit over my average hours targets of late let’s say!
My big argument is against people doing 4,5,6 days of 15 hours a day, rather than the 1,2,3 like I target. I’ve no interest in rear-ending someone on the M25 at 8am thursday morning because I’ve decided to aid-and-abet another firm who expects you to work even a 75 hour monday-friday week. The human animal is not designed to work 15 hours a day EVERY day - without dire medical side effects. I’ll do 3x 15 hour shifts a week max, not because I’m addicted to the money, but because I’ve already dealt with falling pay and conditions across the industry best I can - by going part time. I don’t feel encouraged to work flat out for less money any more. Even at Christmas, I’m flat out more as a favour to the agency than because I’m trying to cram my coffers. I’ve already stockpiled by holiday pot to get me through the “lean new year” expected.
If I thought like so many others, and just knuckled down and did the 75 hour weeks for the £500 salary, then I’d end up taking home about £360 of it (mileage no longer claimable) and of course losing that £140 in deductions as well. Work 3 15 hour shifts for the agency, and I’ll be taxed on about £350 of it, pay about £40 in deductions. No brainer really!
When I was doing the 75 hour pallet jobs, I noticed that the regular full timers got to have some shuteye on their duties. Of course muggins always seem to have the “residue” and went to the back of the tip queue, so there’s no time for any sleep by the time I’M tipped, and then I’m expected to “rush back” 'cos the wagon is wanted by someone else… I hated it! - Couldn’t get away from the feeling I was being used! 
Anyways, I dropped it on the thursday, before I went through the 60 hour mark, which I still think is illegal, regardless of what anyone else says. 
stevieboy308:
Winseer:
Perhaps I should be bleating about this odd concept of “planners” rather than POA…Essentially, if you are a salaried worker, you should be salaried for 36-48 hours (let’s say 40) with OT/Days off in lieu coming into play if you go above that.
You’re looking at 5 day weeks of 8 hours, 4 day weeks of 12 hours or even 6 day weeks of 6 hours. Not great if you have to commute, but I’m sure everyone has seen such shift patterns somewhere.
RM has patterns like this, and others all over the place ,with days off midweek, 4 hours on a saturday morning, etc etc. You are making up your 40 hours in effect.Now, if you have some “planner” that’ll be putting you on a 5-6-5-6 days per week pattern with 12-15 hours a day EVERY day, mis-using POA as to get around the drivers regs BUT then not counting those hours as part of your “aggregate”, THEN you’ll find yourself working the 84+ hours of which I bang on about for only 48 hours of pay. OR officially being on duty 84 hours (which I suggest is illegal) which would indicicate a very low base hourly rate indeed.
RM don’t recognise POA, but they do really, since if you have an 8 hour duty, and you get stuck somewhere for 4 hours, and book off after 12, you’ll be booking some overtime - so in fact, RM DO pay POA at better rates than many in effect. What they mean by “not recognising” I think is the management use of POA to effectively extend the working day to silly lengths without having to dish out any extra money.
You might re-word this as “RM don’t recognise running bent”!Kinda makes them look a head and shoulders above certain other firms hmm?
please explain how 84 hours is illegal?
If you do 84 hours a week, then you’re having too many 9 hour minimum daily rests that week. Even with a fancy “spread”, you won’t be able to do it 2 weeks back-to-back - not without killing yourself at least! Being found wanting by “natural law” tends to leave one in a box going into a furnace… It is legal to jump off motorway bridges in this country. - it is illegal in the states though!please explain the bit about RM again, as you say they don’t, they do, then they don’t
RM say they “don’t recognise POA” - but if you get delayed anywhere, you’ll get paid the overtime rather than just be told “4 hours late bud? - No extra pay, put it down to experience”. Thus, RM DO pay for POA - even if they DON’T officially “recognise” it.please give multiple examples of people doing up to 84 hours but only getting paid for 48, on a hourly pay basis to keep it simple.
Anyone working an 84 hour week and getting paid less than £840pw is selling themselves short. More often, it will be 84 hours for a takehome of £480 which on the same scale looks like “paid for 48” right? To keep it simple as you say, I’ve kept the example of the £10 hourly rate, as it’s the minimum I work for, as you know already I’m sure.
In my mind, if I want to take home £480, I would work 48 hours, get paid for 48 hours, and have all the tax mitigated away with offsets. Thus, I theoretically get paid £480 takehome for 48 hours agency work, whereas a mug might risk life and limb doing 84 hours on duty for the same takehome pay.please give a link to where it says you can’t get paid if off duty
If you are being paid whilst actually off-duty, then you are committing overtime fraud, or you’ve left the premises early, perhaps “unofficially” which would land you in deep crap if there was a fire alarm, and no one could find you. you are NOT off duty for salary/insurance purposes when your tacho is on POA/Break. You ARE off-duty when you’ve left the premises in your own vehicle, having already handed in your wagon keys. People have been sacked for “job and knocking”, not realising they were required to “hang around” because the time and motion folk were in that week… All they see is someone buggering off 4 hours into a 10 hour duty, and circumventing the “signing out” process to hide that fact. Breaches fire regulations at very least!i agree with you about getting paid from when you turn up to when you go home, although i have no issue with firms that deduct one break, if it gets deducted then i’ll take it when and where i want.
If you’re on duty long enough, you might need to take a second 45 minute break. I wouldn’t expect this to be deducted myself, but RM do on shifts 12 hours plus.the salary thing, back in the day a salary bought up to your max hours unless otherwise stated, then it came in you need to average 48 working hours, so you can look at it as not being paid for POA or still paid up to maximums, but get to go home early if needs be to keep the average in check. it’ll come down to what it says in the contract
Salary is mis-used, because it more often than not, includes a lot of unpaid hours. Recession has brought in a lot of skinflint behaviour to the industry.
Gone is “upto” 48 hours, and ‘in’ is the "averaged’ 48 hours, which means you make up for umpteen weeks of 84 hours by having 4 weeks holilday, and bank holidays off to get that average back down. Maybe your “generous” firm has staff working 84 hours one week, a week off (actual holiday) and then 84 week three, and then an “easy” 24 hour week in the office week four…
If anyone had said 20 years ago that in 2012 the business would be acting “like this” towards it’s drivers, then your audience would think you were describing a pykie firm - not a large firm who’ve learned from the Banker’s bumper book of Legal Public Robbery on how to fleece everyone except themselves…
You are on-duty the proverbial 84 hours (driving, other work, breaks, POA all added together) but you’ll only be paid for 48 (driving+other work only) because you don’t get paid POA and breaks, but you are still on duty because you have not gone home!
Yes, that means I don’t believe more than 5 day trampers should be legal either. Daily rest might be spent on a bunk, but weekly rest SHOULD be away from the vehicle - else there’s no point to having it! How many spend a weekend in a layby, because they’re browbeaten into putting up with the firm’s interpretation of THIS rule?
As it is, on the continent, you can’t drive across the weekends in places. That’s kind of enforcing the 45 hour weekly rest BUT there are still stranded drivers, so it’s unenforceable whilst runs are sent out with the potential of turning into a “weekend out”!
Sorry to ■■■■ on your chips but, out of your minimum 5.6 weeks holiday entitlement, 4 weeks are to be counted as 48 hours for a week off or 8 hours for a day off.
Yes, that’s right. But they’re not though are they?
Not every firm is as fastidious on WTD management as RM I’m saying.
If they WERE following it, then like RM, they’d be stopping people from listing for too much overtime, preventing folk within 8 hours of their total being sent out on wild goose chases, and no 15 hour stitch-ups on a friday night! Eg. A guy starts his friday on 41 hours driving, 52 hours on duty so far that week. He’d be given a basic 6 hour run that might take 8, not a 10 hour run that might run to 15, forcing someone in the minibus to come out and get him from the other side of the country!
4 week’s leave is classed as “stat leave” and counts 48 hours against. The rest is zero hours against. Without WTD management though, there’s always the danger that a “planner” might accidentally deliberately count it all as zero, and stick someone on the aggregate I depict above on a 4.5 hour drive to London/brum any other big city to get stuck in the traffic on a friday night, mostly when salaried, or just down to the incompetance of the “planner” sometimes as well. 
Winseer:
stevieboy308:
Winseer:
Perhaps I should be bleating about this odd concept of “planners” rather than POA…Essentially, if you are a salaried worker, you should be salaried for 36-48 hours (let’s say 40) with OT/Days off in lieu coming into play if you go above that.
You’re looking at 5 day weeks of 8 hours, 4 day weeks of 12 hours or even 6 day weeks of 6 hours. Not great if you have to commute, but I’m sure everyone has seen such shift patterns somewhere.
RM has patterns like this, and others all over the place ,with days off midweek, 4 hours on a saturday morning, etc etc. You are making up your 40 hours in effect.Now, if you have some “planner” that’ll be putting you on a 5-6-5-6 days per week pattern with 12-15 hours a day EVERY day, mis-using POA as to get around the drivers regs BUT then not counting those hours as part of your “aggregate”, THEN you’ll find yourself working the 84+ hours of which I bang on about for only 48 hours of pay. OR officially being on duty 84 hours (which I suggest is illegal) which would indicicate a very low base hourly rate indeed.
RM don’t recognise POA, but they do really, since if you have an 8 hour duty, and you get stuck somewhere for 4 hours, and book off after 12, you’ll be booking some overtime - so in fact, RM DO pay POA at better rates than many in effect. What they mean by “not recognising” I think is the management use of POA to effectively extend the working day to silly lengths without having to dish out any extra money.
You might re-word this as “RM don’t recognise running bent”!Kinda makes them look a head and shoulders above certain other firms hmm?
please explain how 84 hours is illegal?
If you do 84 hours a week, then you’re having too many 9 hour minimum daily rests that week. Even with a fancy “spread”, you won’t be able to do it 2 weeks back-to-back - not without killing yourself at least! Being found wanting by “natural law” tends to leave one in a box going into a furnace… It is legal to jump off motorway bridges in this country. - it is illegal in the states though!please explain the bit about RM again, as you say they don’t, they do, then they don’t
RM say they “don’t recognise POA” - but if you get delayed anywhere, you’ll get paid the overtime rather than just be told “4 hours late bud? - No extra pay, put it down to experience”. Thus, RM DO pay for POA - even if they DON’T officially “recognise” it.please give multiple examples of people doing up to 84 hours but only getting paid for 48, on a hourly pay basis to keep it simple.
Anyone working an 84 hour week and getting paid less than £840pw is selling themselves short. More often, it will be 84 hours for a takehome of £480 which on the same scale looks like “paid for 48” right? To keep it simple as you say, I’ve kept the example of the £10 hourly rate, as it’s the minimum I work for, as you know already I’m sure.
In my mind, if I want to take home £480, I would work 48 hours, get paid for 48 hours, and have all the tax mitigated away with offsets. Thus, I theoretically get paid £480 takehome for 48 hours agency work, whereas a mug might risk life and limb doing 84 hours on duty for the same takehome pay.please give a link to where it says you can’t get paid if off duty
If you are being paid whilst actually off-duty, then you are committing overtime fraud, or you’ve left the premises early, perhaps “unofficially” which would land you in deep crap if there was a fire alarm, and no one could find you. you are NOT off duty for salary/insurance purposes when your tacho is on POA/Break. You ARE off-duty when you’ve left the premises in your own vehicle, having already handed in your wagon keys. People have been sacked for “job and knocking”, not realising they were required to “hang around” because the time and motion folk were in that week… All they see is someone buggering off 4 hours into a 10 hour duty, and circumventing the “signing out” process to hide that fact. Breaches fire regulations at very least!i agree with you about getting paid from when you turn up to when you go home, although i have no issue with firms that deduct one break, if it gets deducted then i’ll take it when and where i want.
If you’re on duty long enough, you might need to take a second 45 minute break. I wouldn’t expect this to be deducted myself, but RM do on shifts 12 hours plus.the salary thing, back in the day a salary bought up to your max hours unless otherwise stated, then it came in you need to average 48 working hours, so you can look at it as not being paid for POA or still paid up to maximums, but get to go home early if needs be to keep the average in check. it’ll come down to what it says in the contract
Salary is mis-used, because it more often than not, includes a lot of unpaid hours. Recession has brought in a lot of skinflint behaviour to the industry.
Gone is “upto” 48 hours, and ‘in’ is the "averaged’ 48 hours, which means you make up for umpteen weeks of 84 hours by having 4 weeks holilday, and bank holidays off to get that average back down. Maybe your “generous” firm has staff working 84 hours one week, a week off (actual holiday) and then 84 week three, and then an “easy” 24 hour week in the office week four…
If anyone had said 20 years ago that in 2012 the business would be acting “like this” towards it’s drivers, then your audience would think you were describing a pykie firm - not a large firm who’ve learned from the Banker’s bumper book of Legal Public Robbery on how to fleece everyone except themselves…
You are on-duty the proverbial 84 hours (driving, other work, breaks, POA all added together) but you’ll only be paid for 48 (driving+other work only) because you don’t get paid POA and breaks, but you are still on duty because you have not gone home!
Yes, that means I don’t believe more than 5 day trampers should be legal either. Daily rest might be spent on a bunk, but weekly rest SHOULD be away from the vehicle - else there’s no point to having it! How many spend a weekend in a layby, because they’re browbeaten into putting up with the firm’s interpretation of THIS rule?
As it is, on the continent, you can’t drive across the weekends in places. That’s kind of enforcing the 45 hour weekly rest BUT there are still stranded drivers, so it’s unenforceable whilst runs are sent out with the potential of turning into a “weekend out”!
6 x 24 hours = 144 - 9 - 9 - 9 - 11 - 11 - 11 = 84 or 3 x 13 + 3 x 15 = 84 it looks legal to me
RM pay poa
still waiting for multiple examples of people doing up to 84 hours but only getting paid for 48, on a hourly pay basis to keep it simple.
still waiting for a link to where it says you can’t get paid if off duty. i used to work for macfarlanes on the printing gig, parked up on saturday night to load on sunday, the press broke = no load, gaffer rings up “can i pay you 11 hours to sit there and do nothing till monday” did i commit overtime fraud?
RM pay poa
I said RM don’t RECOGNISE poa, rather than don’t pay it. This is their own line on the subject. What they mean by it I believe is that they won’t allow drivers to “use POA in order to get their available hours down so they can book more overtime”. If you were given a 10 hour duty, and you did it in 8, you’d have 10 hours set against your aggregate, and when both you and another bod applied for some same block of overtime, he’d get it over you because their aggregate was lower, because they had an 8 hour block against them instead of a 10 hour block against them. POA therefore “isn’t recognised” as a management tool to “keep you at work longer” like other firms use it for. 
still waiting for multiple examples of people doing up to 84 hours but only getting paid for 48, on a hourly pay basis to keep it simple.
Everyone getting their drivers to spend 84 hours at work a week for a takehome pay of £480 or less. Let’s look at it from the other end - WHO pays £840 a week?
Putting it as a bit of philosophic logic;
I don’t personally know any millionaire tax dodgers, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any out there!
I wasn’t abused by Saville, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t an abuser, and paradoxically it doesn’t change the fact that he died an unconvicted and therefore innocent man in the eyes of the law.
I don’t know the names of any he did allegedly abuse, but that doesn’t mean he didnt abuse anyone at all - just because I can’t name them!
still waiting for a link to where it says you can’t get paid if off duty. i used to work for macfarlanes on the printing gig, parked up on saturday night to load on sunday, the press broke = no load, gaffer rings up “can i pay you 11 hours to sit there and do nothing till monday” did i commit overtime fraud?
[/quote]
So where is this great place to work that you describe? Is it a case of “used to work” because they’ve long since gone bust, or tightened up work practices like Safeways transport did - by going bust!
I suggested that “knocking off early” would be OK with firms who duly signed you out, the boss knew all about it, and you were paid for the agreed contracted hours regardless of working them or not. If you are contracted for 8 hours, and go home with permission after 6, you’ll get paid 8 with full blessing therefore.
If you come in for an 8 hour shift, work 10, but then book 15, then I’d like to know who’d not consider this as some kind of fraud! - Must be a great place to work if you got PAID for 84 hours, but only spent upto 48 on duty the whole week!
Lemme at that application form!
If it were generally known that the majority of firms were a “cushy number”, then that cushiness would then become the “going rate” for the job.
If cushy numbers are like rocking horse crap on the other hand, then the PERCEIVED hourly rates & conditions gets to become the “going rate” instead, which is why ESL for example has the effect of pushing down wages. There’s a perception that the headline rates of pay are “good” for the rather long hours that one is expected to work there. I don’t see much in the way of their working weeks being say, 3x15 hours and that’s it. 5x8 hours and that’s it. etc etc.
A millionaire can pay you a grand a week for painting his fence if he wants, regardless of you even turning up to do it or not. It’s upto the payer to pay on their own discretion.
On the other hand, if a millionaire tried paying your missus a grand a week for going around his on a regular basis, then both yourself and the law would probably object for entirely different reasons - one legal, one feudal.
I think what we mean therefore by “cannot be paid off duty for being on duty” is when you’ve got “other work” essentially (ie you’re still knocking around the depot with your card out of the wagon) being recorded as “off duty” which it quite evidently is NOT.
If you’re being paid in any shape or form other than “for the hours on duty” therefore, it isn’t going to be possible to be paid whilst off-duty, since who is going to pay it, regardless of it being legal or not?
Laid up trampers get night out allowance - not “book through” pay, which is something else RM used to have, but got rid of over a decade ago.
I would imagine that any firm who get their drivers to drive averages over 48 hours a week with averages over 60 hours on duty don’t want to publicise that fact, since it represents sailing rather close to the wind in the eyes of the law.
I wonder how much longer it will be when VOSA pull someone on a wednesday, establish they have few driving hours left, but knowing they work for a monday-friday firm, go out of their way to inspect the yard or pull the same driver on the FRIDAY, knowing in advance that an offence is going to be found!?
It would only take “coordinated pulling of drivers” to do this…
Juddian:
Proper salaried jobs don’t recognise POA so none booked, 48 hours is plenty.
Juddian:
Nope, we don’t use POA at all and the company wouldn’t recognise it if we did.Long day due to delay?, probably get a 7 hour shift the next day or the one after…they don’t want 80 hour a week zombies at the wheel, which suits me.
48hrs is certainly plenty. Who would want to work 60-70+ hours and be paid for 48…apart from your company wanting you to…that is?
Winseer:
still waiting for multiple examples of people doing up to 84 hours but only getting paid for 48, on a hourly pay basis to keep it simple.Everyone getting their drivers to spend 84 hours at work a week for a takehome pay of £480 or less. Let’s look at it from the other end - WHO pays £840 a week?
Putting it as a bit of philosophic logic;
I don’t personally know any millionaire tax dodgers, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any out there!
I wasn’t abused by Saville, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t an abuser, and paradoxically it doesn’t change the fact that he died an unconvicted and therefore innocent man in the eyes of the law.
I don’t know the names of any he did allegedly abuse, but that doesn’t mean he didnt abuse anyone at all - just because I can’t name them!
because people work for less than what you’re prepared to work for doesn’t mean they’re not getting paid poa, as you very well know.
so i’m still waiting
both of your analogies don’t work either. what you’re doing with unpaid poa is accusing saville of abusing people a year ago, before all the allegations were made and the apparent long standing rumours had become public knowledge, of course with what then came to light you would of been right, but with no evidence and only a hunch i don’t think you’d of stood up declaring he’s done xyz, would you?
Winseer:
still waiting for a link to where it says you can’t get paid if off duty. i used to work for macfarlanes on the printing gig, parked up on saturday night to load on sunday, the press broke = no load, gaffer rings up “can i pay you 11 hours to sit there and do nothing till monday” did i commit overtime fraud?
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So where is this great place to work that you describe? Is it a case of “used to work” because they’ve long since gone bust, or tightened up work practices like Safeways transport did - by going bust!
i left for an engineering job, a few years later they went bust. i’ve never been weekended away but if i was working for a firm that wanted me out all weekend, then the absolute minimum would be 8 hours pay per day or no thanks.
Winseer:
I suggested that “knocking off early” would be OK with firms who duly signed you out, the boss knew all about it, and you were paid for the agreed contracted hours regardless of working them or not. If you are contracted for 8 hours, and go home with permission after 6, you’ll get paid 8 with full blessing therefore.
If you come in for an 8 hour shift, work 10, but then book 15, then I’d like to know who’d not consider this as some kind of fraud! - Must be a great place to work if you got PAID for 84 hours, but only spent upto 48 on duty the whole week!
Lemme at that application form!
quite agree, work 10 but book 15, sounds like fraud, but that’s not what you were on about when you brought it up.
Winseer:
How 7 day trampers operate (ie 2 days at the weekend laid up for the 45 hour weekly rest) and keep getting away with it escapes me.
If you are living in your cab, then how the hell does that count as 45 hours weekly rest? Away from home, family, etc?
It has been MADE legal by the firm “not paying” - thus the definition of “off duty” has become “not being paid” rather than “gone home for the day/weekend”.
I reckon Agencies don’t give out 7 day tramps around here because they’d be paying us for 168 hours! - Even at minimum wage, that’s over a grand a week!