I’m winging and blagging it here big style. as I know very little of the politics of NI, nor much of went on during the troubles, only what I heard and was told.
There are far more qualified guys on here to give opinions…that said.
Way I see it is at least it is on the whole peaceful over there now, resulting in no more bombs over here on the mainland.
I accept that there is a much bigger threat today from the enemy within in the Muslim community, or at least part of it.
Only positive side of the Irish threat in comparison,.(and from a VERY simplistic point of view ) is, at least the Irish terrorists issued pre warnings, the present threat is more ruthless in my view.
robroy:
I’m winging and blagging it here big style. as I know very little of the politics of NI, nor much of went on during the troubles, only what I heard and was told.
There are far more qualified guys on here to give opinions…that said.
Way I see it is at least it is on the whole peaceful over there now, resulting in no more bombs over here on the mainland.
I accept that there is a much bigger threat today from the enemy within in the Muslim community, or at least part of it.
Only positive side of the Irish threat in comparison,.(and from a VERY simplistic point of view ) is, at least the Irish terrorists issued pre warnings, the present threat is more ruthless in my view.
They often issued warnings… and as often didn’t.
They also had a habit of giving a warning giving wrong locations …
Better still they’d place a second device where they reckoned first responders would gather.
Don’t fall under the impression that somehow they were better.
Shooting an unarmed airman with his 18 month old baby at a fuel station on the continent begs to differ. There are dozens of equally appalling and cowardly murders.
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Monkey241:
robroy:
I’m winging and blagging it here big style. as I know very little of the politics of NI, nor much of went on during the troubles, only what I heard and was told.
There are far more qualified guys on here to give opinions…that said.
Way I see it is at least it is on the whole peaceful over there now, resulting in no more bombs over here on the mainland.
I accept that there is a much bigger threat today from the enemy within in the Muslim community, or at least part of it.
Only positive side of the Irish threat in comparison,.(and from a VERY simplistic point of view ) is, at least the Irish terrorists issued pre warnings, the present threat is more ruthless in my view.They often issued warnings… and as often didn’t.
They also had a habit of giving a warning giving wrong locations …Better still they’d place a second device where they reckoned first responders would gather.
Don’t fall under the impression that somehow they were better.
Shooting an unarmed airman with his 18 month old baby at a fuel station on the continent begs to differ. There are dozens of equally appalling and cowardly murders.
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Yep I don’t doubt it,.I was just speaking as I saw it…or thought I did.
I just remember being reported on the news that there were pre warnings by phone, and as I said there are guys on here more qualified to comment…so I’ll shut up about it as I know when I m on delicate ice… 
There is one thing that stays on my mind those 2 off duty squaddies who inadvertently found themselves in the middle of an IRA funeral, how they couldn’t escape it. and how they were brutalised and murdered.
Interestingly there is now an article in the press with Geoff Hoon (Defence Secretary under the delightful Blair) claiming that he was ordered by Downing Street to burn a memo outlining that the invasion of Iraq could be illegal.
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robroy:
Monkey241:
robroy:
I’m winging and blagging it here big style. as I know very little of the politics of NI, nor much of went on during the troubles, only what I heard and was told.
There are far more qualified guys on here to give opinions…that said.
Way I see it is at least it is on the whole peaceful over there now, resulting in no more bombs over here on the mainland.
I accept that there is a much bigger threat today from the enemy within in the Muslim community, or at least part of it.
Only positive side of the Irish threat in comparison,.(and from a VERY simplistic point of view ) is, at least the Irish terrorists issued pre warnings, the present threat is more ruthless in my view.They often issued warnings… and as often didn’t.
They also had a habit of giving a warning giving wrong locations …Better still they’d place a second device where they reckoned first responders would gather.
Don’t fall under the impression that somehow they were better.
Shooting an unarmed airman with his 18 month old baby at a fuel station on the continent begs to differ. There are dozens of equally appalling and cowardly murders.
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Yep I don’t doubt it,.I was just speaking as I saw it…or thought I did.
I just remember being reported on the news that there were pre warnings by phone, and as I said there are guys on here more qualified to comment…so I’ll shut up about it as I know when I m on delicate ice…
There is one thing that stays on my mind those 2 off duty squaddies who inadvertently found themselves in the middle of an IRA funeral, how they couldn’t escape it. and how they were brutalised and murdered.
Do you recall the Birmingham pub bombing in the early 70s?
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Yes,.I’ve actually drank in one of those pubs…off The Bull Ring?
And those in Guildford, it was in 78 with a driver mate before I started driving myself, so not long after the actual bombing, …that was in useless piece of information but there you go.
Why?
robroy:
Yes,.I’ve actually drank in one of those pubs…off The Bull Ring?
And those in Guildford, it was in 78 with a driver mate before I started driving myself, so not long after the actual bombing, …that was in useless piece of information but there you go.
Why?
Think that’s the one…the inquest found that the warning phoned in was botched.
The warning didn’t detail where the bombs were… and were delayed supposedly down to a vandalised phone box.
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robroy:
Monkey241:
robroy:
I’m winging and blagging it here big style. as I know very little of the politics of NI, nor much of went on during the troubles, only what I heard and was told.
There are far more qualified guys on here to give opinions…that said.
Way I see it is at least it is on the whole peaceful over there now, resulting in no more bombs over here on the mainland.
I accept that there is a much bigger threat today from the enemy within in the Muslim community, or at least part of it.
Only positive side of the Irish threat in comparison,.(and from a VERY simplistic point of view ) is, at least the Irish terrorists issued pre warnings, the present threat is more ruthless in my view.They often issued warnings… and as often didn’t.
They also had a habit of giving a warning giving wrong locations …Better still they’d place a second device where they reckoned first responders would gather.
Don’t fall under the impression that somehow they were better.
Shooting an unarmed airman with his 18 month old baby at a fuel station on the continent begs to differ. There are dozens of equally appalling and cowardly murders.
Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk
Yep I don’t doubt it,.I was just speaking as I saw it…or thought I did.
I just remember being reported on the news that there were pre warnings by phone, and as I said there are guys on here more qualified to comment…so I’ll shut up about it as I know when I m on delicate ice…
There is one thing that stays on my mind those 2 off duty squaddies who inadvertently found themselves in the middle of an IRA funeral, how they couldn’t escape it. and how they were brutalised and murdered.
Just noticed your comment on Howes and Wood, the two signallers dragged from their car.
Both would have carried pistols, indeed one pulled his and fired a warning shot into the air.
Both pistols would have had at least 10 rounds of ammunition. How either controlled themselves to not empty the magazine into the attacking crowd is beyond me - I guess that’s the difference between terrorists and soldiers attempting to provide peace and security to the Province.
A terrifying scenario and painful to watch. 2 brave men trying to do their duty.
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Monkey241:
adam277:
I think your under the impression I sympathize with the IRA.
I don’t. You can’t justify what they did. Their bombing campaign had no justification whatsoever.But just because they acted like terrorists doesn’t give the British troops a free pass.
As usual we are getting off topic again lol.Regardless of what the IRA did I think Blair’s role in the good Friday agreement was a positive thing.
I’m not under that impression at all.
I am under the impression you have a poor grasp of what the army did out there and the conditions they faced.No one…least of all me…gives criminal soldiers a free pass. But hundreds of thousands of troops served in NI…
A small percentage behaved badly.
You think Blair’s role was a good thing…
But what was his role? I’ll wager you know as little on that front as you’ve shown about the military.
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This is a bit tedious now.
I’ve already said my knowledge on the troubles in NI is limited. Yet you have not disproven anything I have said. All you seem to be disagreeing with me on is that not every solider is a ■■■■■■ or someone he kills innocents. Well, I can assure you I already know that and that these people are in the minority.
His role was helping in getting an agreement in place, something that would never of happened under a John Major government. Would you like me to write a couple of paragraphs on what I know? You keep questioning what I KNOW without tackling the substance. Which is quite annoying. Your not saying I am wrong, you are just questioning if my knowledge is enough to even talk about the subject.
Personally, I think you are just wrong if you think the Good Friday agreement was bad. Yea, sure it screwed some British soldiers over as it made them liable to prosecution while IRA terrorists got a basically free pass. But if I compare Northern Ireland from 1998-2018 to Northern Ireland 1976-1996. I know it did a good job in facilitating peace.
What ignorance have I shown about the miltary? I presume you mean in regards to Iraq.
To be honest I probably know more than some people who served there. Mainly because some soliders are stupid 
youtube.com/watch?v=5gtYNKvGvnM
Like I said before though I think Iraq is better now then it was pre invasion.
Literacy rates have gone up 11%
Life expectancy has gone up 5 years.
Electricity usage has tripled.
Ye there are issues with the government in Iraq and even with press freedom but some stuff needs to be dealt with by the Iraqi people and not a foreign army which is happening.
bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50595212
Let’s not also forget it was mainly the Iraqi army that beat ISIS in Iraq who were working with the remants of the Ba’ath party and other loyalists to Sadam’s former regime.
Your original comment in response to GFA was ‘some. A lot needed to be held to account’
A lot is very vague but that and various other comments suggest great gaps in your knowledge.
The IRA was beaten and GFA was up for grabs - the idea that only Blair could have achieved it is garbage.
As for Iraq…interesting that electricity usage has trebled…dates and a source would be good. As for the other claims, the same applies. Do either actually reflect quality of life?
I was there in 2002 and 2008…in no way was the quality of life better. Indeed it was worse. In the years after that it was far worse…but now if your stats are correct you claim life is better? 20 years later? Apart from not knowing what would have happened had Saddam remained in power, that seems a massively flawed view.
Incidentally, more Iraqis died annually after the invasion from violence than was the case under Saddam.
But let’s get to the knub…Blair LIED over Iraq. He deliberately misled Parlt leading to the deaths and maiming of hundreds of servicemen and women
If you have no issue with that, I despair.
On your comment about some soldiers being stupid- it’s not a word I tend to use. Perhaps you could say what you mean?
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Gotta love your link though.
In an opinion post claiming how life has improved, you link to a fairly recent article detailing how little had actually changed since life under Saddam.
Violence, corruption, dire public services (like electricity) and high unemployment.
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Monkey241:
Gotta love your link though.In an opinion post claiming how life has improved, you link to a fairly recent article detailing how little had actually changed since life under Saddam.
Violence, corruption, dire public services (like electricity) and high unemployment.
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For the Literacy rate.
macrotrends.net/countries/I … eracy-rate
For the Energy use.
ourworldindata.org/energy/country/iraq
(not quite treble but hard to find more recent figures)
As for has quality of life improved… Well life expetancy has improved, literacy rates have improved and access to clean water has improved.
I’m not pretending it is perfect. But I do think it is better with Sadam although I can not prove that.
I’m no war monger though. I think Assad should of got more support from the west. I do not believe we should of destablized his regime. (Which we did with no fly zones and putting pressure on him politically and supporting rebel factions.) Oh, and letting western social media influence what was going on in the ground.
I also dont think we should of messed with Libya. Gadaffi was the best person to lead that country at the time. The region is worse off without him.
That’s another thing. The Gadaffi / Blair deal with hugely significant.
theguardian.com/world/2004/ … a.politics
Blair helped facilate him into giving up his WMD’s and returning to the international community.
On 22 January 2004, U.S. military transport planes carried around 55,000 pounds (25,000 kg) of documents and equipment related to Libya’s nuclear and ballistic missile programs to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) in Tennessee. On March 2004, over 1,000 additional centrifuge and missile parts were shipped out of Libya.
As of September 2013, 1.6 metric tons of mustard blister agent loaded in artillery rounds, 2.5 metric tons of congealed mustard agent, and 846 metric tons of chemical weapons ingredients remained to be destroyed.[3] According to The New York Times, on February 2014, the remnants of Libya’s chemical weapons had been discreetly destroyed by the United States and Libya, using a transportable oven technology to destroy hundreds of bombs and artillery rounds filled with deadly mustard agent.[12]
Gadaffi also warned Blair about Al-Queda. Told him about a Pakistani scientist who was going to help him build nukes. This was critical information because this is the scientist that was giving information to North Korea and Iran.
I’m sure a lot more useful information came from Gadaffi as well.
Then you have the muppet David Cameron.
youtube.com/watch?v=vgIb1FLNkAE
acting like we should be pleased Gadaffi is dead.
What happened in Libya was basically if we went to Iraq kill Sadam and pulled out straight away. Libya is no a cesspool for immigrants to make the crossing to Europe and for terrorists to hide and build up their forces.
I’m just glad Putin supported Assad in keeping control of Syria even if it is still in a mess. I do not like Assad but the region can not afford for him to lose control.
You THINK life has improved.
That’s it then. Case closed. [emoji6]
My experience was that life quality and safety had worsened as the insurgency got traction.
IF there has been an improvement (your very own BBC link from just 2 years ago counters that argument) over 20 years, I’m not sure that even employing your twisted logic it can be argued that it’s a direct result of the invasion.
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Syria can’t afford to lose Assad?
But Iraq COULD afford to lose Saddam?
I’m not sure that your argument is any way consistent…
Still, ‘feels’ are important.
You said (wrongly from my experience) that there are a lot of thick soldiers - ever thought of joining up? You’re doing the logistics stereotype no favours.
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Monkey241:
Syria can’t afford to lose Assad?But Iraq COULD afford to lose Saddam?
I’m not sure that your argument is any way consistent…
Still, ‘feels’ are important.
You said (wrongly from my experience) that there are a lot of thick soldiers - ever thought of joining up? You’re doing the logistics stereotype no favours.
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Iraq was different. We went in full boots on the ground to get rid of Sadam. Granted we were not prepared and we did not do a great job. But I think the quality of life improved.
Now you can argue if that is the case or not. I’ll include a picture of Quality of life indicators from my sociology days that is often used to measure quality of life.
Now, with Syria what Cameron wanted to do along with the USA was to destablise the regime and oust ASSAD from power without invasion. That’s like going in to kill Sadam then immediately pulling out. Would of just completely destablised the area. Say what you want about Blair but at least he TRIED to rebuild the country unlike Cameron who helped destroy Libya and tried the same with Syria.
Yea, the thick soliders jibe was intended to annoy you a bit because you have been a bit of an annoying guy to debate with 
. I remember having a discussion with an ex army guy about Iraq. He was pro war and I was playing devil’s advocate. When he couldn’t answer my question he asked me if I could even load an M16? I said no. Then he said then you dont know what the ■■■■ your on about. 
Just to add.
North Eastern Iraq has done nothing but thrive since Sadam left power. It is a lovely place to visit and very safe.
I personally would love to visit Erbil.
It’s also quite a rich region.
youtube.com/watch?v=T6PkLWAHzf0
adam277:
Monkey241:
Syria can’t afford to lose Assad?But Iraq COULD afford to lose Saddam?
I’m not sure that your argument is any way consistent…
Still, ‘feels’ are important.
You said (wrongly from my experience) that there are a lot of thick soldiers - ever thought of joining up? You’re doing the logistics stereotype no favours.
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Iraq was different. We went in full boots on the ground to get rid of Sadam. Granted we were not prepared and we did not do a great job. But I think the quality of life improved.
Now you can argue if that is the case or not. I’ll include a picture of Quality of life indicators from my sociology days that is often used to measure quality of life.Now, with Syria what Cameron wanted to do along with the USA was to destablise the regime and oust ASSAD from power without invasion. That’s like going in to kill Sadam then immediately pulling out. Would of just completely destablised the area. Say what you want about Blair but at least he TRIED to rebuild the country unlike Cameron who helped destroy Libya and tried the same with Syria.
Yea, the thick soliders jibe was intended to annoy you a bit because you have been a bit of an annoying guy to debate with
Just to add.
North Eastern Iraq has done nothing but thrive since Sadam left power. It is a lovely place to visit and very safe.
I personally would love to visit Erbil.
It’s also quite a rich region.
youtube.com/watch?v=T6PkLWAHzf0
By all means bring on the Sociology measures - just make a better job of it than the BBC link.
You didn’t want to discuss NI… but bring Syria into it? [emoji1787]
Oh and the attempt to annoy me with the soldier jibe? Wasted on a personal level given my academic achievements. I find the thick soldier stereotype lazy and a refuge for those who are losing ground in the debate - you being the perfect example.
I know of a multitude of soldiers with barely an academic qualification to their name - but their practical intelligence is beyond doubt
I wonder- do you stereotype black men in the same manner?
You find me annoying to debate with?
Ah well. That would be your problem.
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Oh …just noticed
Blair tried to rebuild Iraq? OK…just not hard enough?
I was ordered on my first tour to stop arresting looters and leave them to it…
That order came from the Civil Administration set up by the coalition .
Seems you have a low standard
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You keep referencing the BBC link like it is a smoking gun lol.
Iraqi’s protesting by dancing or running a 5k marathon. - Sure Sadam would of delt with that just fine.
The protestors want less corrupt politicans. I think that is a reasonable aim.
The only reason these protests can even take place is because Sadam is dead.
Just to be clear. Are you arguing that it was better we did not depose Sadam and you wish he was still in power?
I was happy to discuss N.I in relation to the good friday agreement and Blair’s role in it. I did not want to start chatting about the morality of the IRA and dive deep into it though. The only reason I mentioned it was as an example of a positive thing Tony Blair did. Your counter-argument was pretty weak. In which you basically implied he was at the right place at the right time and that any other prime minister would of done the same. I think the point is they didnt. John Major could of got an agreement but he would not.
As for bringing Syria into it. I was just drawing parrells with Blair’s apporach to conflict in the middle east to Cameron’s. Which approach do you think is better?
I haven’t lost a single point in this debate. To be fair neither have you. We just keep moving the goal posts from discussing Tony Blair to other issues.
Yep I sterotype black men in the same manner.
and Jewish people.
and truckers who are both fat and lazy.
I find you a poor debater.
Blair did try to rebuild Iraq. There is no denying that.
As for not arresting looters. It was so long ago and is such a specific example I dont see how it is relavant to the overall point. But, I did take the time to google.
nytimes.com/2003/05/14/worl … oters.html
Maybe there was some politics involved.
Either way we go back to poor planning by UK and US governments.
I’m glad you have many academic achievments. I have none.
Monkey241:
adam277:
I think it was all for oil or we were America’s lapdog makes a good newspaper headline.
Not much else.It’s like when people proudly claim how dumb Boris is. Or make a quip about him when they don’t even know how to tie their own shoelaces. He has many flaws for sure but being dumb is not one of them.
A bit off topic but just spent an hour listening to LBC in which they dedicate an hour to mocking Boris.As for Blair he got reelected in 2005. Two years into the Iraq war. With like a 100 seat majority or something silly like that
I think I remember at the time alot of people treated stop the war protesters much like we treat extinction rebellion now.The Iraq situation is complex for sure and Blair deserves his share of the blame as we were not prepared.
I don’t think it’s as black and white as many people make out though.
I know the Kurdish people are alot happier now that Saddam is gone as well.I was in Iraq at the time.
It was mishandled to a very obvious degree and left the Iraqis in a far worse state than under Saddam.
I’m proud of my service there but utterly disgusted at what the coalition failed to do.
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Just as an attempt to go back to our original disagreement.
I think I have given examples Kurdistan Region of Iraq that has thrived since the war. In particular Erbil.
I’m sure even you can accept that.
I showed examples of increase electricity use. This has happened due to a diversifcation of Iraq’s energy sector. During Sadam’s rule the country was 97% reliant on oil for its energy needs. now its more like 30%.
Literacy rates have increase.
Life expectancy has increased.
And GDP per capita has gone up from around $800 to $4,125 since 2003.
Now you could argue all this may of happened under Sadam.
Or these small positives are not enough to justify invasion.
You may be right I have no way of countering that argument.
I do think you are wrong though when you say Iraq is worse off.
Thanks to the usual suspects this thread is now irrelevant as the whole thing has been hijacked and totally taken off tangent by 2 socks