New 'O' Licence and advice

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
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Hi all - not quite my first post but lost my original username/password.

The company I work for aquired an Iveco Daily van some months ago - which is registered as a HGV. We got this as payment in kind from a customer who couldnt pay us, and it is registered now in our name.

We are not a transport or haulage / delivery company in any shape or form, being a firework display company, and thought the van would be ideal for us as our loads are heavy on occasion, and the van is EX/II certified.

We regularly carry class 1 ADR loads for our own use in the UK and Europe.
Its EX/II certificate and MOT expired and it was taken to be tested by the local VOSA testing station, it failed on some minor points (MOT not ADR) and we took it back to a local garage to be sorted out.

This garage was amazed that we had been using the vehicle, and more amazed that we had been through a VOSA MOT and ADR check unscathed, as it appears we should have an Operators Licence, which we dont have. I only ever heard of it after searching after the garage mentioned it.
The vehicle went back and passed everything and nothing was said by the very pleasant VOSA tester.

So - we have this van, which we currently (I assume) have been operating illegally for some time, and I believe we need a restricted ‘O’ licence for it, as we dont do deliveries - just carry our own goods around for shows we do here and in Europe.

We think we should be ok to get the ‘O’ licence - even though it will be a pain losing the van while we wait for it, but I need some clarification on what other stuff we need to take care of and how.

There is no dedicated driver for the van, whoever needs to use it uses it (licence permitting of course) and its use is not regular, certainly not daily, sometimes not even once a week.

What specifically do we need to record of any drivers activities?

Most of our working week is drive to work - in a car / pickup, then office or warehouse for the rest of the day, driving is mainly to commute.

Should we be keeping logs of what each allowed driver does every day, working hours? driving times? whether at work or when off?

Regards

Gerry

2

Hi Gerry,

You’ll need an operator’s licence and tachograph (including all that goes with it) if the permitted GVW of the vehicle exceeds 3.5t and it’s used in connection with a business. Whether (or not) you do deliveries with it doesn’t make any difference.
You can ignore the part of the plate that mentions trailers if you don’t intend to pull a trailer.

From your description, you’ll need an ‘own account’ operator’s licence, because it’s your own goods that you carry. You can do collections and deliveries as long as the goods are your own.

If you’re carrying ‘in scope’ UN Class 1 ADR loads, you’ll also need a qualified DGSA, the driver(s) will need an ADR Card and the vehicle will need to have the required equipment, markings and fire-extinguishers on board.

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Thanks Dave,

I have downloaded all the forms and guidance for the restricted O Licence application, and hopefully that will be started this week - advert posting etc.

Van is already fitted with a Tacho - analogue, which we use when the van is in use.

It wont be used for towing as no towbar fitted.

I wanted to know what records us drivers had to keep regarding using our other vehicles in general though, as I gather we now have to abide by some rules regarding what other driving we do at work, hours worked and stuff like that. I was hoping that if us drivers just had to keep a daily logbook or record or our activities - ie driving - work hours - days off etc, that this would suffice.

No other vehicles are fitted with a tachograph.

We have a DGSA - not a full time employee - but retained by us in some way as required, and all necessary drivers hold ADR cards.

The van is fitted out with its own installed extinguishers and permanently installed folding placards and various diamonds fitted to suit the load 1.1, 1.3, 1.4 etc. And us ADR guys each have a ‘personal’ set of ADR gear, magnetic signs, extinguisher, glasses, chocks, lights, gloves - the usual stuff, in our own cars - just so we have it with us if required.

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With regard to tachographs and record keeping to do it properly and fully in line with requirements will prove to be a pain but once everyone is used to it, it really is simple. Below is a rough idea. PM me for my mobile number if you want further advice.

Basically as you have identified, on the days it is used to carry goods (as opposed to equipment for the driver to use) a tachograph will need to be used and the person driving will be in scope of the full EU Drivers Hours rules for that day. This means all limits, break requirements and daily rest requirements must be adhered to, regardless of the time/distance the van is used on the road. Once that driver has driven under these rules he is also now subject to the full weekly rest rules for that week. He must record his WHOLE working day including activities not recorded by the tachograph.

As well as the above, the driver will need to have with him, in the cab, a record of any other work carried out on days prior to driving in that week. This should consist of at least the drivers name, date and start & finish times. (No need for detailed records of activities). These records really should be written on an analogue tacho disc, digital print paper with written records or recorded onto a digital driver card. We do however know that in most (but not all) cases a DVSA officer would be OK with a clear and precise diary or time sheet or log book showing the same information. personally I would strongly advise the analogue disc.

As an example, the driver doesn’t drive the big van Mon/Tue/Wed and then drives it Thursday. Get a single analogue chart, fill in name and then on the reverse write Monday 01/01/80 work 08:00 to 17:00. Tuesday 02/01/80 work 06:30 to 17:30 and Wednesday etc etc etc then use a new chart for today remembering to record back to start of the shift and continue to record the rest of the shift even if the vehicle is finished with.

These records of other work must be with the driver in the vehicle and these rules apply to all drivers who may drive it. This rule then applies for the last 28 calendar days. So the driver would have todays detailed record including any work carried out before driving and inserting the tacho, records of working days prior to this and any other records produced in the last 28 days. These must be with the driver in the vehicle.

Records of driving days must be returned to the operator after 28 days and no later than 42 days. Records of ‘other work’ do not have to be returned but I would suggest they are. These records must now be filed in Driver Name and then date order and kept for at least 12 months.

If a driver doesn’t drive the big van in a week (Midnight Sunday to midnight Sunday) then no records are required at all and he is not subject to the Drivers Hours rules.

To be honest - some companies find having a single vehicle over 3.5t that looks like a van is a pain because of all the extra requirements Operator Licensing, Tachos and DCPC bring with it. Some companies I know just have 1 or 2 lads who are always the ones that drive the big van and nobody else - they then know the full requirements and ensure it is done correctly. Some also make it so whoever drives it in this week, is always the one that drives it for the rest of this week avoiding record keeping nightmares.

Book yourself on a decent Driver CPC drivers hours course and the trainer should (but don’t hold your breath) be able to put you straight both as an operator and a driver. Some would try to charge you more for a special ‘Operator Compliance Awareness Course’ … I wouldn’t bother paying the extra.

Like I said - PM me for my mobile if you want a chat about it.

Pete

5

Jubilee:
We have a DGSA - not a full time employee - but retained by us in some way as required, and all necessary drivers hold ADR cards.

The van is fitted out with its own installed extinguishers and permanently installed folding placards and various diamonds fitted to suit the load 1.1, 1.3, 1.4 etc. And us ADR guys each have a ‘personal’ set of ADR gear, magnetic signs, extinguisher, glasses, chocks, lights, gloves - the usual stuff, in our own cars - just so we have it with us if required.

Hi Jubilee,

That all sounds good to me mate, it looks like you’ve ticked all the boxes for ADR.

And just to be clear… your DGSA doesn’t have to be a full time employee. You’re doing this by using the consultancy route, which is what most companies do, and all perfectly legal. :smiley:

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Also if you are using the tacho charts for the working time directive then you need to keep them for 2 years