Need a few questions answered please

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

i have most of the basics and understand them read all drivers hours and wtd regulations but still not 100% on some issues, i,d be grateful for all your help as i don,t want to get fined or anything once i pass my class 2 and start work.
below for driving & wtd are only examples just so i can get the legal stuff, as i know its not all driving
question 1-- speed limits for class 2 & 1 trucks
on a single carrigeway national speed limit small signs can i do 40 mph
on a dual carriway national speed limit large signs can i only do 50 mph
on motorway can i do 60 unless speed limiter only allows you say 56 mph

question 2 – i know you can split 15 mins the 30 mins but say after driving 4 & half hrs i have break 45 mins then drive another 4 & half hrs in total if i want to drive my extra 1 hr which is twice a week do i need to have another break of 45 mins after 9 hrs before driving that extra hour

question 3 – if i drive 4 & half hrs then break 45 mins then drive 3 quarters of an hour this is 6 hours do i have to have a break of 30 mins wtd or is this cancelled out because i had 45 mins driving break, (((or if i 4 & half hrs then break 45 mins then drive plus other work for another 1 & half hrs do i have to have a break of 30 mins wtd or do i not have to because i had a 45 min break

question 4 – the max working hrs is 60 hrs a week is this for 5 days or 6 days, example say if i am working 3 of 15 hrs & 2 of 13 hrs(( driving & other work & breaks)) this is total of 71 hours. if it was mon till fri night and i had breaks say my driving breaks 45 mins x 5 days = 3 & 3 quarter hrs + poa 5 hrs & 2 & a quarter hrs in other breaks this should be 60 hrs have i got this right.if the 60 hrs is for a 6 day week how will it work out for a 5 day week

question 5 – poa if i don,t know how long it will be before they unload me can i put it on break or is that illegal, if so whats max time you can do this.
thank you for all your help your,re a brilliant bunch

2

gothika:
i have most of the basics and understand them read all drivers hours and wtd regulations but still not 100% on some issues, i,d be grateful for all your help as i don,t want to get fined or anything once i pass my class 2 and start work.
below for driving & wtd are only examples just so i can get the legal stuff, as i know its not all driving
question 1-- speed limits for class 2 & 1 trucks
on a single carrigeway national speed limit small signs can i do 40 mph
on a dual carriway national speed limit large signs can i only do 50 mph
on motorway can i do 60 unless speed limiter only allows you say 56 mph

Yes.

question 5 – poa if i don,t know how long it will be before they unload me can i put it on break or is that illegal, if so whats max time you can do this.
thank you for all your help your,re a brilliant bunch

Just ignore POA. Everyone else does. It’s a complete waste of time. VOSA don’t care.

3

gothika wrote

question 1-- speed limits for class 2 & 1 trucks
on a dual carriway national speed limit large signs can i only do 50 mph

A dual carriageway is defined, not by the number of lanes, but by what seperates the two (dual) traffic flows. If the opposing flows of traffic are seperated by something other than paint or plastic cones then it is a dual.
A dual can be one lane on one side and twenty lanes on the other as long as the seperation is as previously described. Two lanes in each direction with a double white line in the middle seperating them is a single carriageway.

question 2 – i know you can split 15 mins the 30 mins but say after driving 4 & half hrs i have break 45 mins then drive another 4 & half hrs in total if i want to drive my extra 1 hr which is twice a week do i need to have another break of 45 mins after 9 hrs before driving that extra hour

Yes - remember if splitting the 45 min break to take the 15 first and the 30 second.

question 3 – if i drive 4 & half hrs then break 45 mins then drive 3 quarters of an hour this is 6 hours do i have to have a break of 30 mins wtd or is this cancelled out because i had 45 mins driving break, (((or if i 4 & half hrs then break 45 mins then drive plus other work for another 1 & half hrs do i have to have a break of 30 mins wtd or do i not have to because i had a 45 min break

The driving break cancelled out the need for the WTD break

question 4 – the max working hrs is 60 hrs a week is this for 5 days or 6 days, example say if i am working 3 of 15 hrs & 2 of 13 hrs(( driving & other work & breaks)) this is total of 71 hours. if it was mon till fri night and i had breaks say my driving breaks 45 mins x 5 days = 3 & 3 quarter hrs + poa 5 hrs & 2 & a quarter hrs in other breaks this should be 60 hrs have i got this right.if the 60 hrs is for a 6 day week how will it work out for a 5 day week

lost on this one - ask Tachograph or Coffeeholic :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: cos I aint getting shot again :wink: :unamused: :laughing:

4

gothika:
i have most of the basics and understand them read all drivers hours and wtd regulations but still not 100% on some issues, i,d be grateful for all your help as i don,t want to get fined or anything once i pass my class 2 and start work.
below for driving & wtd are only examples just so i can get the legal stuff, as i know its not all driving
question 1-- speed limits for class 2 & 1 trucks
on a single carrigeway national speed limit small signs can i do 40 mph
on a dual carriway national speed limit large signs can i only do 50 mph
on motorway can i do 60 unless speed limiter only allows you say 56 mph

As already answered.

gothika:
question 2 – i know you can split 15 mins the 30 mins but say after driving 4 & half hrs i have break 45 mins then drive another 4 & half hrs in total if i want to drive my extra 1 hr which is twice a week do i need to have another break of 45 mins after 9 hrs before driving that extra hour

Yes with the example given you would need another 45 minute break.
The maximum you are allowed to drive is 4 and half hours then you should always have a 45 before doing any more driving, unless you’re splitting the break of cause, but you seem to understand that.

gothika:
question 3 – if i drive 4 & half hrs then break 45 mins then drive 3 quarters of an hour this is 6 hours do i have to have a break of 30 mins wtd or is this cancelled out because i had 45 mins driving break

The 45 minute driving break counts for the WTD as well.
For WTD purposes you shouldn’t work more than 6 hours before having a 15 minute break, but in the example you’ve given you’ve included the driving break in the 6 hour period, you’ve only actually worked for 5.25 hours not 6.

gothika:
(((or if i 4 & half hrs then break 45 mins then drive plus other work for another 1 & half hrs do i have to have a break of 30 mins wtd or do i not have to because i had a 45 min break

Same as above, any breaks for driving count as breaks for WTD purposes also.

gothika:
question 4 – the max working hrs is 60 hrs a week is this for 5 days or 6 days, example say if i am working 3 of 15 hrs & 2 of 13 hrs(( driving & other work & breaks)) this is total of 71 hours. if it was mon till fri night and i had breaks say my driving breaks 45 mins x 5 days = 3 & 3 quarter hrs + poa 5 hrs & 2 & a quarter hrs in other breaks this should be 60 hrs have i got this right.if the 60 hrs is for a 6 day week how will it work out for a 5 day week

Sorry I’ve just finished a night shift and can’t get my head round this at the moment.
The maximum you’re allowed to work in a week is 60 hours, this is actual work excluding rest/breaks and POA, weather you do it in 5 or 6 days is irrelevant as long as you also have the necessary breaks and rest periods including a weekly rest or reduced weekly rest period.

The 60 hours a week have to average out at no more than 48 hours a week over the reference period (usually 17 weeks).

gothika:
question 5 – poa if i don,t know how long it will be before they unload me can i put it on break or is that illegal, if so whats max time you can do this.

You can legally have a break and put the the tacho on break as long as you’re not doing any work and the time can be spent to recuperate, or you could put the tacho on other work which it is really unless you’re on break.
As far as “max time you can do this” is concerned, I’m not sure what you mean, you can put the tacho on break any time you have a break, there’s no limit, but if you’re not on break or POA whilst waiting to load/unload then it’s really other work.

It should be noted however that if you put the tacho on break every time you stop it’s going to look quite suspicious I would have thought, If you got stopped and VOSA saw that you put the tacho on break every time you’re waiting to unload/load I imagine it may raise suspicions and encourage a closer look at your records, but I’m guessing at that :wink:

Hope I’ve typed this so it’s understandable :confused:

5

gothika:
question 4 – the max working hrs is 60 hrs a week is this for 5 days or 6 days, example say if i am working 3 of 15 hrs & 2 of 13 hrs(( driving & other work & breaks)) this is total of 71 hours. if it was mon till fri night and i had breaks say my driving breaks 45 mins x 5 days = 3 & 3 quarter hrs + poa 5 hrs & 2 & a quarter hrs in other breaks this should be 60 hrs have i got this right.if the 60 hrs is for a 6 day week how will it work out for a 5 day week

The week runs from 00:00 Monday until 24:00 Sunday and in that period you cannot do more than 60 hours work, work does not include POA or Breaks. How many shifts you do the 60 hours in is irrelevent, 5, 6, 7 or more it doesn’t matter.

6

thank you rog and tachograph but still stuck on 60 hrs a week
my m8 says he works 3 of 15 hrs days with 9 hrs rest and 2 13 hr days with 11 hrs rest to me that works out at 71 hrs so do all his breaks get deducted from 71 hrs to make 60 hrs. you say average hrs worked is 48 hrs over a 17 week period hoiw the hell do i work that one out, as i have,nt a clue, i know i,ll be on £6 or £6.50 hr so can you enlighten me thanx lads
sorry tacho especially if you,ve been nightshift thank you

7

gothika:
thank you rog and tachograph but still stuck on 60 hrs a week
my m8 says he works 3 of 15 hrs days with 9 hrs rest and 2 13 hr days with 11 hrs rest to me that works out at 71 hrs so do all his breaks get deducted from 71 hrs to make 60 hrs.

Answered above, but I’ll have another go. With split rest you could work 90 hours in a week and still fall within the WTD because of POA and breaks. The only thing that counts toward the 60 hours are driving and other work, POA and breaks DO NOT COUNT TOWARD THE 60 HOURS.

gothika:
you say average hrs worked is 48 hrs over a 17 week period hoiw the hell do i work that one out, as i have,nt a clue,

You add the number of hours you work each week and dived that total by the number of weeks. Over the reference period, usually 17 or 26 weeks, it must avergae 48 hours or less.

gothika:
i,ll be on £6 or £6.50 hr

That has nothing to do with it.

You might want to start reading some of the answers to your questions as I am sure I’ve answered this weekly average and how the working hours are calculated thing when you asked this question on other threads.

8

gothika:
you say average hrs worked is 48 hrs over a 17 week period hoiw the hell do i work that one out, as i have,nt a clue, i know i,ll be on £6 or £6.50 hr so can you enlighten me

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

:laughing:

9

A simple answer to this one is the majority of firms pay you through from start to finish and some take off the 45min break (such as agencies) but most pay right through.

With regards to taking a “Break” as opposed to POA when waiting to tip / load that is legal as long as “YOU” are not under your employers instructions / jurisdiction i.e. waiting to tip / load etc. or doing other work .

In other words you are free to do what you want, that is the difference to POA which means you are not actually working but you are prepared to start work after a given period say 1 or 2 hrs.

The length of the break is up to you as long as it no less than 15 minutes (I usually make it 30 mins minimum) as it is easier to calculate your times then.

10

I think I see where gothika is coming from :slight_smile:

gothica, you could do 60 hours paid time in a week as long as your company pays you for POA and/or any breaks but if you did 40 hours actual driving and 5 hours ‘other work’ in that week, making 45 hours as well as 15 hours POA then only the 45 hours counts towards the average 48 hours a week worked over a 17 or 26 week period, so you will have saved 3 of your average hours.
So, assuming you get a flat rate of £6.50 per hour x 60 hours = £390.00 but you have only actually worked & driven for 45 hours - the rest of the time, 15 hours, you spent in your cab or nearby waiting to be called.
Does this help you :question:

11

ROG:
I think I see where gothika is coming from :slight_smile:

gothica, you could do 60 hours paid time in a week as long as your company pays you for POA and/or any breaks but if you did 40 hours actual driving and 5 hours ‘other work’ in that week, making 45 hours as well as 15 hours POA then only the 45 hours counts towards the average 48 hours a week worked over a 17 or 26 week period, so you will have saved 3 of your average hours.
So, assuming you get a flat rate of £6.50 per hour x 60 hours = £390.00 but you have only actually worked & driven for 45 hours - the rest of the time, 15 hours, you spent in your cab or nearby waiting to be called.
Does this help you :question:

thanx coffieholic and rog
rog the only thing im not sure about now is as i said if 60 hrs a week as coffieholic said this is over a 7 day period so if i worked 60 hrs mon to fri every week would this be legall as i,ll have 2 days off every week

12

rog the only thing im not sure about now is as i said if 60 hrs a week as coffieholic said this is over a 7 day period so if i worked 60 hrs mon to fri every week would this be legall as i,ll have 2 days off every week

thats an average of 12 hours paid work a day and as long as you do not reduce your daily rest in a 24 hour period to 9 more than 3 times in that week and your 2 days off are together, you should be ok.
BUT i would seek confirmation from an expert on this cos I aint one - saying that, coffee aint shot me for a while so if I am wrong I cannot see him missing this opportunity :unamused: :wink: :laughing:

13

gothika:
rog the only thing im not sure about now is as i said if 60 hrs a week as coffieholic said this is over a 7 day period so if i worked 60 hrs mon to fri every week would this be legall as i,ll have 2 days off every week

As said you can work 60 hours a week but unless that includes some POA you wouldn’t be able to legally do it every week because it would not average out to a maximum of 48 hours over the reference period.

The rule is that you can work a maximum of 60 hours in a week, but over the reference period of usually 17 or 26 weeks you’re working time should average no more than 48 hours.

14

tachograph:

gothika:
rog the only thing im not sure about now is as i said if 60 hrs a week as coffieholic said this is over a 7 day period so if i worked 60 hrs mon to fri every week would this be legall as i,ll have 2 days off every week

As said you can work 60 hours a week but unless that includes some POA you wouldn’t be able to legally do it every week because it would not average out to a maximum of 48 hours over the reference period.

The rule is that you can work a maximum of 60 hours in a week, but over the reference period of usually 17 or 26 weeks you’re working time should average no more than 48 hours.

thanx tacho and everyone else i,ve got it now thank you

15

ROG:
thats an average of 12 hours paid work a day and as long as you do not reduce your daily rest in a 24 hour period to 9 more than 3 times in that week and your 2 days off are together, you should be ok.
BUT i would seek confirmation from an expert on this cos I aint one - saying that, coffee aint shot me for a while so if I am wrong I cannot see him missing this opportunity :unamused: :wink: :laughing:

Not bad ROG, but you may cause a little confusion by saying you can only reduce to 9 hours daily rest 3 times in a week. That works for the example Gothika gave but you can reduce to a minimum of 9 hours 3 times between weekly rest periods. You could reduce to 9 hours on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday then take a weekly rest period and reduce again on say the Friday and the Saturday, 5 reductions in one fixed week but legal because the weekly rest re-sets the amount of reductions allowed.

16

ROG:
I think I see where gothika is coming from :slight_smile:

gothica, you could do 60 hours paid time in a week as long as your company pays you for POA and/or any breaks

You can be paid for more hours in a week than that ROG. You could be paid for 60 hours work - driving and other work - and get your POA and/or breaks paid on top of that. Two weeks in 8 I do a shift pattern which sees me get paid around 83 hours but both of those weeks usually fall within the 48 hour average for the WTD. Whether you are being paid for the hours or not has no bearing on the WTD.

17

Coffeeholic:

ROG:
thats an average of 12 hours paid work a day and as long as you do not reduce your daily rest in a 24 hour period to 9 more than 3 times in that week and your 2 days off are together, you should be ok.
BUT i would seek confirmation from an expert on this cos I aint one - saying that, coffee aint shot me for a while so if I am wrong I cannot see him missing this opportunity :unamused: :wink: :laughing:

Not bad ROG, but you may cause a little confusion by saying you can only reduce to 9 hours daily rest 3 times in a week. That works for the example Gothika gave but you can reduce to a minimum of 9 hours 3 times between weekly rest periods. You could reduce to 9 hours on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday then take a weekly rest period and reduce again on say the Friday and the Saturday, 5 reductions in one fixed week but legal because the weekly rest re-sets the amount of reductions allowed.

I only did the simple, usual example otherwise I get into ‘trouble’ :wink:

18

Coffeeholic:

ROG:
I think I see where gothika is coming from :slight_smile:

gothica, you could do 60 hours paid time in a week as long as your company pays you for POA and/or any breaks

You can be paid for more hours in a week than that ROG. You could be paid for 60 hours work - driving and other work - and get your POA and/or breaks paid on top of that. Two weeks in 8 I do a shift pattern which sees me get paid around 83 hours but both of those weeks usually fall within the 48 hour average for the WTD. Whether you are being paid for the hours or not has no bearing on the WTD.

:blush: :blush: :blush: got that wrong then (hope he’s not loading the gun :exclamation: ) I wrongly surmised that it was a maximum of a total of 60 paid hours in 1 week - I read it wrong - AGAIN :unamused: