My issue with the brexit deal

Carryfast:

dexxy57:

Carryfast:

Franglais:
A different view from Germany, Michael Roth, Germany’s Europe Minister:
“90% of British Ministers had no idea how workers think, live, work, and behave…born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities…” who has caused the mess but would suffer no consequences themselves…

So now we’re supposed to believe that the EU is led by champions of the working class as opposed to university educated elites.

So exactly what electoral mandate has Roth got here giving the zb the supposed right to say anything concerning the internal affairs of this country ?.Possibly other than,like Tusk’s and Juncker’s fathers,a family history of having tried and failed to put it,like the rest of Europe,under German Federal rule in 1940.

He’s got as much right to comment on this country as you have to comment on his. Grow up.

I thought we were ‘commenting’ on the EU 4th Reich not ‘Germany’.Personally I don’t give a zb what Germany does within Germany just so long a they keep it within their own borders.Which they’ve obviously historically had a problem with.

While we only ‘commented’ on ‘his’ country when Germany decided that it would be a good idea to extend German Federalism across Europe.Including the British Isles in 1940.Oh wait.

Right, calm down, breathe deeply and try to express yourself in plain, understandable English. It’s hard work getting through your posts.

dexxy57:
Right, calm down, breathe deeply and try to express yourself in plain, understandable English. It’s hard work getting through your posts.

Which part of,the German government only has a mandate to govern Germany, not us or any other European state,don’t you understand.On that note zb stasi Merkel and her stinking 4th Reich.

Mazzer2:

Franglais:
A different view from Germany, Michael Roth, Germany’s Europe Minister:
“90% of British Ministers had no idea how workers think, live, work, and behave…born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities…” who has caused the mess but would suffer no consequences themselves…
The ‘i’ .

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

To be fair that could also be said of 90% of politicians across western Europe.

The majority of politicians are university educated, although there are notable exceptions including here in the UK.
But are most EU politicians educated at private schools as often as UK ones are?
And there are about 7% of children in private education, whereas 29% pd MPs are. Hence they are over represented.
I can see that those who qualify for acceptance at a good Uni may make good MPs, but not those who have rich parents. It all appears very skewed.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

Franglais:
The majority of politicians are university educated, although there are notable exceptions including here in the UK.
But are most EU politicians educated at private schools as often as UK ones are?
And there are about 7% of children in private education, whereas 29% pd MPs are. Hence they are over represented.
I can see that those who qualify for acceptance at a good Uni may make good MPs, but not those who have rich parents. It all appears very skewed.

Not exactly the working class utopia.In either case.

As opposed to fixing all the wrongs of the flawed Socialist solution.In the recognition that blue collar industry with workers given an equal,if not superior role in the management of their own places of work,with the ability to decide their own fair wage levels and to draw on state funds for investment,with protection from race to the bottom free markets ideology,is a good thing and an asset to the economy.Not something to be looked down on by a bunch of elitist un productive pen pushers.While in return respecting rights to property ownership and not getting involved in ridiculous reactionary social engineering experiments.

Then last but not least telling the rest of the world this is what we are going to try to do but we don’t intend to force our ideas on anyone and we support the idea of democracy and democratic accountability and with it the sovereignty of the nation state,even those nations who are opposed to us.

How does the EU fit the above ideal or fix the working class struggle ?.Oh wait it doesn’t because it’s a pathetic caricature of everything that was/is wrong about Socialism and Federalism in trying to create a Frankenstein hybrid of the Soviet Union/German Reich/Yugoslav Federation and the USA in Europe. :unamused:

Franglais:

Mazzer2:

Franglais:
A different view from Germany, Michael Roth, Germany’s Europe Minister:
“90% of British Ministers had no idea how workers think, live, work, and behave…born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities…” who has caused the mess but would suffer no consequences themselves…
The ‘i’ .

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

To be fair that could also be said of 90% of politicians across western Europe.

The majority of politicians are university educated, although there are notable exceptions including here in the UK.
But are most EU politicians educated at private schools as often as UK ones are?
And there are about 7% of children in private education, whereas 29% pd MPs are. Hence they are over represented.
I can see that those who qualify for acceptance at a good Uni may make good MPs, but not those who have rich parents. It all appears very skewed.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk[/

There is an elite school for children of Eurocrats in Brussels two notable ex memebers are Stephen Kinnock MP and his Danish wife( Ex Prime minister of Denmark). Macron attended the Lycee Henry IV in Paris which according to Wikipedia is one of France’s most prestigious schools an ex members read like a who’s who of French politicians and their families, both examples are probably not private schools in the Uk’s sense of the word but I don’t think there will many from the local council estate attending either.

The last 20 years or so has seen the rise of the professional politician especially in the UK, politics degree work in an MP’s office then become a political adviser or SPAD then get parachuted into a safe seat and bingo on the gravy train for life. There are no qualifications to be an MP but one should be that you have worked outside of politics for a number of years in another profession, the reason Westminster is stuffed full of so many idiots is that many of them have never done a days work outside of the political bubble, even the ones who didn’t attend private school have spent the majority of their working lives as politicians and so have no idea about business or living on a low wage Jeremy Corbyn being a prime example. Labour MP’s seem to be the most hypocrytical, with nepotism and leaving their political beliefs behind when it comes to family Dianne Abbot privatly educated her son yet campaigns against private schools, Tony Benn campaigned aginst inherited wealth yet left all his considerable wealth to his children and they wonder why they are viewed with such contempt.

Mazzer2:

Franglais:

Mazzer2:

Franglais:
A different view from Germany, Michael Roth, Germany’s Europe Minister:
“90% of British Ministers had no idea how workers think, live, work, and behave…born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities…” who has caused the mess but would suffer no consequences themselves…
The ‘i’ .

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

To be fair that could also be said of 90% of politicians across western Europe.

The majority of politicians are university educated, although there are notable exceptions including here in the UK.
But are most EU politicians educated at private schools as often as UK ones are?
And there are about 7% of children in private education, whereas 29% pd MPs are. Hence they are over represented.
I can see that those who qualify for acceptance at a good Uni may make good MPs, but not those who have rich parents. It all appears very skewed.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk[/

There is an elite school for children of Eurocrats in Brussels two notable ex memebers are Stephen Kinnock MP and his Danish wife( Ex Prime minister of Denmark). Macron attended the Lycee Henry IV in Paris which according to Wikipedia is one of France’s most prestigious schools an ex members read like a who’s who of French politicians and their families, both examples are probably not private schools in the Uk’s sense of the word but I don’t think there will many from the local council estate attending either.

The last 20 years or so has seen the rise of the professional politician especially in the UK, politics degree work in an MP’s office then become a political adviser or SPAD then get parachuted into a safe seat and bingo on the gravy train for life. There are no qualifications to be an MP but one should be that you have worked outside of politics for a number of years in another profession, the reason Westminster is stuffed full of so many idiots is that many of them have never done a days work outside of the political bubble, even the ones who didn’t attend private school have spent the majority of their working lives as politicians and so have no idea about business or living on a low wage Jeremy Corbyn being a prime example. Labour MP’s seem to be the most hypocrytical, with nepotism and leaving their political beliefs behind when it comes to family Dianne Abbot privatly educated her son yet campaigns against private schools, Tony Benn campaigned aginst inherited wealth yet left all his considerable wealth to his children and they wonder why they are viewed with such contempt.

I can’t argue with much there…
But I’ll try later…

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

The easiest form of Brexit - would have been the Hardest kind, as far as the EU are concerned, but the Softest kind - based on what EU citizens here in Britain and UK citizens in terms of Taxation and Public Services wanted.

Freedom of Movement, EU Citizens Rights in Britain, and the acceptance of Euro currency as legal tender about the UK alongside our own Sterling Currency - are already in PLACE - and are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Paying contrbutions to be in what was once a “Trading Club” - leaves a lot to be desired though. The EU could have brought down these costs, and made it cheaper for the UK to “stick with it” - but their own spending has got way out of hand, and they are as addicted to the high amounts of cash we’ve been giving them over 40 years - that they cannot possibly countenence reducing that cash take any more than a Crack Addict can give up Smoking, drinking, and all kinds of “poisoning oneself” alongside the more usual “methodone halfway house” method of beating drug addiction.

Thing is, the “Stripping a plaster off” analogy - was always likely to be the one way that WOULD have worked.

Citizens - were not going to be moved on. It is easier to “Leave things are they are”.
Goods and Services - are still freely moving about, as there is no desire by either side to change THAT particular system.
Foreign Nationals both coming here as Tourists and or to stay on and work - needed only the tweaking that “They won’t be able to get benefits whilst here”. How hard would THAT have been to put in place?
Payments towards the EU budget - could have been cut off, but it would need the cooperation of senior civil servants with their hands on the financial levers - to carry this out. THAT could have been done by “government edict” - but to my knowledge, has yet to even be considered as a way foward to achieving Brexit.

Thus, three years on we have a Brexit that is 0% done still, the upsides 0% achieved, but the downsides of “investment dropping” and “quality staff starting to go home” weakening our economy by this point.
Even worse, will be next year when the Lisbon Treaty fully kicks in, obliging Britain to be a rule taker - without further use of proverbial vaseline as it were. :frowning:
The difference between the UK and Greece - is that we still have our own currency.
Hungary - has it’s own currency, but still gets a net EU subsidy. There’s only so much that Viktor Orban can do all the while his domestic budget is in need of such cash.
Switzerland - also has it’s own currency, - but it isn’t in the EU. They seem to be having the worse of what “Soft Membership” has to offer, in that they are obliged to take on “flotsam” immigrants for reasons that I can’t understand how a non-EU member - ever got saddled with in the first place!

The BEST solutions to any crisis - are the SIMPLE solutions. There was never any need to make Brexit so complicated as it has become, but our polticians have chosen to make it so, perhaps to protect their own positions first and foremost, like the proverbial depot on the verge of bankruptcy that has twice as many managers as it has shop floor workers and drivers combined.
The NHS - also has this latter problem as well, where the “Non-Medical Staff Budget” is WAY above the actual medical staff payroll expense. And yet as the NHS becomes more inefficient, losing ever more percentage of the cash that gets pumped into it - we see Doctors and Nurses being laid off, re-employed on Zero hours contracts, not given weekend contracts, over-worked in various hot-spots, and even given far too few quality hospitals as their workplaces. Add another few managers each year, some of which are even “Hatchet” people, come to decide what “Fat” they can cut off - never EVER picking their own useless number for the chop, of course!

Brexit is complete - when the cashflow stops as far as the “Politican Declaration” is concerned.
All the other stuff - can be negotiated from OUTSIDE of the EU, as if we were say, Brazil negotiating trade deals, border treaties, movement of citizens on preferred passports, etc.

“Open Borders to ALL” including non-EU citizens - is the unintended consequence of having lax borders, with too many border personnel laid off.

Result? - Everyone and his dog takes advantage, comes here when they are not even EU citizens, gets the right to work via a quickly-given NH number, and then gets onto the benefit system.
“Open Borders” - wasn’t MANAGED properly then. We don’t need walls and new laws - we just need staff to enforce the CURRENT laws - harshly, if need be.

Sajid Javid - in that regard - seems to be getting on and doing the right thing now. It may be too-little, too-late for the Tories though, as surely the Tories are going to get killed at the polls like they did in 1997 the way things are going now? I can’t see an election happening before 2022 even if it is even money at the bookies as I speak for an election THIS year.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
[/quote]
To be fair that could also be said of 90% of politicians across western Europe.
[/quote]

[/quote]
The majority of politicians are university educated, although there are notable exceptions including here in the UK.
But are most EU politicians educated at private schools as often as UK ones are?
And there are about 7% of children in private education, whereas 29% pd MPs are. Hence they are over represented.
I can see that those who qualify for acceptance at a good Uni may make good MPs, but not those who have rich parents. It all appears very skewed.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk[/

There is an elite school for children of Eurocrats in Brussels two notable ex memebers are Stephen Kinnock MP and his Danish wife( Ex Prime minister of Denmark). Macron attended the Lycee Henry IV in Paris which according to Wikipedia is one of France’s most prestigious schools an ex members read like a who’s who of French politicians and their families, both examples are probably not private schools in the Uk’s sense of the word but I don’t think there will many from the local council estate attending either.

The last 20 years or so has seen the rise of the professional politician especially in the UK, politics degree work in an MP’s office then become a political adviser or SPAD then get parachuted into a safe seat and bingo on the gravy train for life. There are no qualifications to be an MP but one should be that you have worked outside of politics for a number of years in another profession, the reason Westminster is stuffed full of so many idiots is that many of them have never done a days work outside of the political bubble, even the ones who didn’t attend private school have spent the majority of their working lives as politicians and so have no idea about business or living on a low wage Jeremy Corbyn being a prime example. Labour MP’s seem to be the most hypocrytical, with nepotism and leaving their political beliefs behind when it comes to family Dianne Abbot privatly educated her son yet campaigns against private schools, Tony Benn campaigned aginst inherited wealth yet left all his considerable wealth to his children and they wonder why they are viewed with such contempt.
[/quote]
I can’t argue with much there…
But I’ll try later…

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
[/quote]
I can’t argue with that either.

There is an elite school for children of Eurocrats in Brussels two notable ex members are Stephen Kinnock MP and his Danish wife (Ex Prime minister of Denmark). Macron attended the Lycee Henry IV in Paris which according to Wikipedia is one of France’s most prestigious schools and ex members read like a who’s who of French politicians and their families, both examples are probably not private schools in the Uk’s sense of the word but I don’t think there will many from the local council estate attending either.

The last 20 years or so has seen the rise of the professional politician especially in the UK, politics degree work in an MP’s office then become a political adviser or SPAD then get parachuted into a safe seat and bingo on the gravy train for life. There are no qualifications to be an MP but one should be that you have worked outside of politics for a number of years in another profession, the reason Westminster is stuffed full of so many idiots is that many of them have never done a days work outside of the political bubble, even the ones who didn’t attend private school have spent the majority of their working lives as politicians and so have no idea about business or living on a low wage Jeremy Corbyn being a prime example. Labour MP’s seem to be the most hypocrytical, with nepotism and leaving their political beliefs behind when it comes to family Dianne Abbot privatly educated her son yet campaigns against private schools, Tony Benn campaigned aginst inherited wealth yet left all his considerable wealth to his children and they wonder why they are viewed with such contempt.
[/quote]
I can’t argue with much there…
But I’ll try later…

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
[/quote]

[/quote]

[/quote]
LOL a couple of bottles of a good French red will soon get the grey matter ticking over :smiley: :smiley:

SO… The UK now gets to vote in the Euro elections on 23rd May.

Their system is rather peculiar, compared to our First-past-the-post system that we are so used to in this country. It is kind of a mixture between “Proportional Representation” where the percentage of the votes is proportional to the percentage of seats that you get.

This - is good for the MINOR parties in the voting. It is harder for the largest party, which of course happens to be UKIP at this time. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get an overall majority in the Euro Parliament. SO… Who stands to gain the most in the upcoming Euro elections - if it isn’t going to be UKIP, and we already know it is NOT going to be the Tories or Labour…?

The system favours the smaller parties such as the Greens and the SNP in particular. Any would-be surge for UKIP in these elections - is likely to favour the Greens, SNP and even the Libdems on their current low base. Even if the overall turnout remains about the same, the simple fact of the Mainstream Conservative and Labour parties seeing their voting base either “not bother”, or “vote for another minor party” - should make a HUGE difference to the outcome of the Euro elections. Then there’s the larger picture in terms of “What the SNP want” once the Tories are successfully destroyed, and Corbyn has given the SNP their second referendum they’ve been banging on about wanting for so long…
A Euro MEP earns more - a LOT more - than a Westminster MP, even a Cabinet minister. If the SNP gained a large number of seats allocated to them following the May 23rd poll - then I can see Nicola Sturgeon possibly stepping DOWN as First Minister, and standing as one of those new MEPs. What can she gain further in Scotland as First Minister? This potential “Breakup of the Holyrood Leadership” leaves May a few further votes short of May’s bad Brexit deal ever passing. Corbyn - might successfully be bought off by May - but how can you buy off the SNP, if leaving the EU at ANY price is now no longer an option?
The SNP cannot be bought then. Once those Euro elections have taken place, the SNP clearly stand to gain the most out of such elections - and once safely in office, the SNP are not ever going to vote for ANY kind of “Brexit Deal” - let alone the awful one that Theresa May still thinks she can one day get through Parliament. Thus, May’s deal - is doomed to eternal failure, and the time has come for the Tories to admit that they’ve knobbled Brexit with Labour’s help - and reap the reward they both rightly deserve at the ballot box. Let the routing commence!

EU Parliament - current standings.

Winseer:
SO… The UK now gets to vote in the Euro elections on 23rd May.

Their system is rather peculiar, compared to our First-past-the-post system that we are so used to in this country. It is kind of a mixture between “Proportional Representation” where the percentage of the votes is proportional to the percentage of seats that you get.

This - is good for the MINOR parties in the voting. It is harder for the largest party, which of course happens to be UKIP at this time. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get an overall majority in the Euro Parliament. SO… Who stands to gain the most in the upcoming Euro elections - if it isn’t going to be UKIP, and we already know it is NOT going to be the Tories or Labour…?

The system favours the smaller parties such as the Greens and the SNP in particular. Any would-be surge for UKIP in these elections - is likely to favour the Greens, SNP and even the Libdems on their current low base. Even if the overall turnout remains about the same, the simple fact of the Mainstream Conservative and Labour parties seeing their voting base either “not bother”, or “vote for another minor party” - should make a HUGE difference to the outcome of the Euro elections. Then there’s the larger picture in terms of “What the SNP want” once the Tories are successfully destroyed, and Corbyn has given the SNP their second referendum they’ve been banging on about wanting for so long…
A Euro MEP earns more - a LOT more - than a Westminster MP, even a Cabinet minister. If the SNP gained a large number of seats allocated to them following the May 23rd poll - then I can see Nicola Sturgeon possibly stepping DOWN as First Minister, and standing as one of those new MEPs. What can she gain further in Scotland as First Minister? This potential “Breakup of the Holyrood Leadership” leaves May a few further votes short of May’s bad Brexit deal ever passing. Corbyn - might successfully be bought off by May - but how can you buy off the SNP, if leaving the EU at ANY price is now no longer an option?
The SNP cannot be bought then. Once those Euro elections have taken place, the SNP clearly stand to gain the most out of such elections - and once safely in office, the SNP are not ever going to vote for ANY kind of “Brexit Deal” - let alone the awful one that Theresa May still thinks she can one day get through Parliament. Thus, May’s deal - is doomed to eternal failure, and the time has come for the Tories to admit that they’ve knobbled Brexit with Labour’s help - and reap the reward they both rightly deserve at the ballot box. Let the routing commence!

Home | Office in London | European Parliament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5w6mwKzuJE

EU Parliament - current standings.
0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqPC08cPGJw

Nicely coloured in map of the country there. Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland have no allocation?

Carryfast:

dexxy57:
Right, calm down, breathe deeply and try to express yourself in plain, understandable English. It’s hard work getting through your posts.

Which part of,the German government only has a mandate to govern Germany, not us or any other European state,don’t you understand.On that note zb stasi Merkel and her stinking 4th Reich.

Oh come on, Reverend, he was just making comments about our MP’s, which he, or anyone else, has every right to do. Don’t recall him saying he wanted to march in and take over the UK.
Nice to see the stinking 4th Reich make a welcome reappearance on the thread though.

dexxy57:

Carryfast:

dexxy57:
Right, calm down, breathe deeply and try to express yourself in plain, understandable English. It’s hard work getting through your posts.

Which part of,the German government only has a mandate to govern Germany, not us or any other European state,don’t you understand.On that note zb stasi Merkel and her stinking 4th Reich.

Oh come on, Reverend, he was just making comments about our MP’s, which he, or anyone else, has every right to do. Don’t recall him saying he wanted to march in and take over the UK.
Nice to see the stinking 4th Reich make a welcome reappearance on the thread though.

No he’s a member of the German government making comments about ‘the way’ in which the Brits are governed by ‘our’ government.In which case fine if you really must have a Europe wide political cluster zb then let’s all vote for everyone’s government.So we can vote for Batten and Wiedel instead of May and Corbyn to lead us and ze Germans can vote for May and Corbyn and Merkel to lead Germany.What could possibly wrong in that case for Germany. :laughing:

dexxy57:

Winseer:
SO… The UK now gets to vote in the Euro elections on 23rd May.

Their system is rather peculiar, compared to our First-past-the-post system that we are so used to in this country. It is kind of a mixture between “Proportional Representation” where the percentage of the votes is proportional to the percentage of seats that you get.

This - is good for the MINOR parties in the voting. It is harder for the largest party, which of course happens to be UKIP at this time. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get an overall majority in the Euro Parliament. SO… Who stands to gain the most in the upcoming Euro elections - if it isn’t going to be UKIP, and we already know it is NOT going to be the Tories or Labour…?

The system favours the smaller parties such as the Greens and the SNP in particular. Any would-be surge for UKIP in these elections - is likely to favour the Greens, SNP and even the Libdems on their current low base. Even if the overall turnout remains about the same, the simple fact of the Mainstream Conservative and Labour parties seeing their voting base either “not bother”, or “vote for another minor party” - should make a HUGE difference to the outcome of the Euro elections. Then there’s the larger picture in terms of “What the SNP want” once the Tories are successfully destroyed, and Corbyn has given the SNP their second referendum they’ve been banging on about wanting for so long…
A Euro MEP earns more - a LOT more - than a Westminster MP, even a Cabinet minister. If the SNP gained a large number of seats allocated to them following the May 23rd poll - then I can see Nicola Sturgeon possibly stepping DOWN as First Minister, and standing as one of those new MEPs. What can she gain further in Scotland as First Minister? This potential “Breakup of the Holyrood Leadership” leaves May a few further votes short of May’s bad Brexit deal ever passing. Corbyn - might successfully be bought off by May - but how can you buy off the SNP, if leaving the EU at ANY price is now no longer an option?
The SNP cannot be bought then. Once those Euro elections have taken place, the SNP clearly stand to gain the most out of such elections - and once safely in office, the SNP are not ever going to vote for ANY kind of “Brexit Deal” - let alone the awful one that Theresa May still thinks she can one day get through Parliament. Thus, May’s deal - is doomed to eternal failure, and the time has come for the Tories to admit that they’ve knobbled Brexit with Labour’s help - and reap the reward they both rightly deserve at the ballot box. Let the routing commence!

Home | Office in London | European Parliament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5w6mwKzuJE

EU Parliament - current standings.
0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqPC08cPGJw

Nicely coloured in map of the country there. Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland have no allocation?

Wales, NI, and Scotland - have their own delegations, which voting in England has no impact on.
Effectively, the EU has divided up the British Isles ALREADY there.
Any damage that can be done then - has to be done by England, with any hopes of UKIP surging in wales - face-planting when they chose Neil Crooked Hamilton to stand as the UKIP candidate in the Newport By-election yesterday. :unamused:

Winseer:

dexxy57:

Winseer:
SO… The UK now gets to vote in the Euro elections on 23rd May.

Their system is rather peculiar, compared to our First-past-the-post system that we are so used to in this country. It is kind of a mixture between “Proportional Representation” where the percentage of the votes is proportional to the percentage of seats that you get.

This - is good for the MINOR parties in the voting. It is harder for the largest party, which of course happens to be UKIP at this time. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get an overall majority in the Euro Parliament. SO… Who stands to gain the most in the upcoming Euro elections - if it isn’t going to be UKIP, and we already know it is NOT going to be the Tories or Labour…?

The system favours the smaller parties such as the Greens and the SNP in particular. Any would-be surge for UKIP in these elections - is likely to favour the Greens, SNP and even the Libdems on their current low base. Even if the overall turnout remains about the same, the simple fact of the Mainstream Conservative and Labour parties seeing their voting base either “not bother”, or “vote for another minor party” - should make a HUGE difference to the outcome of the Euro elections. Then there’s the larger picture in terms of “What the SNP want” once the Tories are successfully destroyed, and Corbyn has given the SNP their second referendum they’ve been banging on about wanting for so long…
A Euro MEP earns more - a LOT more - than a Westminster MP, even a Cabinet minister. If the SNP gained a large number of seats allocated to them following the May 23rd poll - then I can see Nicola Sturgeon possibly stepping DOWN as First Minister, and standing as one of those new MEPs. What can she gain further in Scotland as First Minister? This potential “Breakup of the Holyrood Leadership” leaves May a few further votes short of May’s bad Brexit deal ever passing. Corbyn - might successfully be bought off by May - but how can you buy off the SNP, if leaving the EU at ANY price is now no longer an option?
The SNP cannot be bought then. Once those Euro elections have taken place, the SNP clearly stand to gain the most out of such elections - and once safely in office, the SNP are not ever going to vote for ANY kind of “Brexit Deal” - let alone the awful one that Theresa May still thinks she can one day get through Parliament. Thus, May’s deal - is doomed to eternal failure, and the time has come for the Tories to admit that they’ve knobbled Brexit with Labour’s help - and reap the reward they both rightly deserve at the ballot box. Let the routing commence!

Home | Office in London | European Parliament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5w6mwKzuJE

EU Parliament - current standings.
0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqPC08cPGJw

Nicely coloured in map of the country there. Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland have no allocation?

Wales, NI, and Scotland - have their own delegations, which voting in England has no impact on.
Effectively, the EU has divided up the British Isles ALREADY there.
Any damage that can be done then - has to be done by England, with any hopes of UKIP surging in wales - face-planting when they chose Neil Crooked Hamilton to stand as the UKIP candidate in the Newport By-election yesterday. :unamused:

“Wales, NI, and Scotland - have their own delegations, which voting in England has no impact on.” WinSeer
That is true. Just like a vote cast in Glasgow has no effect on who represents a voter in Gravesend. It doesn`t answer why you show a map with blanks for Wales and Scotland?
The EU has split them from England as much as it has split Brittany from Paris or Berlin from Munich…ie not at all.
If anyone is interested here is a link to the current make-up of MEPs for the UK.
europarl.europa.eu/unitedkin … _meps.html
And here is a llist in Wiki showing them, it can be sorted differently, here showing them by party and affiliation:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m … E2%80%9314
Worth noting there are 73 members

27 Cons
13 Labour
12 Lib Dem
9 UKIP
5 Greens and EFA
7 Others

Rather difficult to see from those figures why so much purple paint was used on your map?

Mazzer2:
There is an elite school for children of Eurocrats in Brussels two notable ex members are Stephen Kinnock MP and his Danish wife (Ex Prime minister of Denmark). Macron attended the Lycee Henry IV in Paris which according to Wikipedia is one of France’s most prestigious schools and ex members read like a who’s who of French politicians and their families, both examples are probably not private schools in the Uk’s sense of the word but I don’t think there will many from the local council estate attending either.

The last 20 years or so has seen the rise of the professional politician especially in the UK, politics degree work in an MP’s office then become a political adviser or SPAD then get parachuted into a safe seat and bingo on the gravy train for life. There are no qualifications to be an MP but one should be that you have worked outside of politics for a number of years in another profession, the reason Westminster is stuffed full of so many idiots is that many of them have never done a days work outside of the political bubble, even the ones who didn’t attend private school have spent the majority of their working lives as politicians and so have no idea about business or living on a low wage Jeremy Corbyn being a prime example. Labour MP’s seem to be the most hypocrytical, with nepotism and leaving their political beliefs behind when it comes to family Dianne Abbot privatly educated her son yet campaigns against private schools, Tony Benn campaigned aginst inherited wealth yet left all his considerable wealth to his children and they wonder why they are viewed with such contempt.

As I said, I can`t argue with much there.
The Lycee Henri IV is open to the public, ■■■■ seems to be very sought after and seems to lie outside of the national selection system.
etudiant.aujourdhui.fr/etudiant/ … grand.html
There is a laid out procedure “Affelnet”, but it is not universally applied.
cache.media.education.gouv.fr/fi … 754755.pdf
HHmmmm.
Since you mention Macron, his parents are certainly not “■■■■■ handed artisans” but maybe still not “political establishment” figures?

I did a quick look at half a dozen French and German MEPs, but Wiki has only thumbnails of them. Turned up one son a small farmer, and one qualified tool-maker. 12 isn`t much of a sample however.
I imagine that anyone having a famous or powerful parent would though have that mentioned? Maybe this is an exception to the rule “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”?

Franglais:

Mazzer2:
There is an elite school for children of Eurocrats in Brussels two notable ex members are Stephen Kinnock MP and his Danish wife (Ex Prime minister of Denmark). Macron attended the Lycee Henry IV in Paris which according to Wikipedia is one of France’s most prestigious schools and ex members read like a who’s who of French politicians and their families, both examples are probably not private schools in the Uk’s sense of the word but I don’t think there will many from the local council estate attending either.

The last 20 years or so has seen the rise of the professional politician especially in the UK, politics degree work in an MP’s office then become a political adviser or SPAD then get parachuted into a safe seat and bingo on the gravy train for life. There are no qualifications to be an MP but one should be that you have worked outside of politics for a number of years in another profession, the reason Westminster is stuffed full of so many idiots is that many of them have never done a days work outside of the political bubble, even the ones who didn’t attend private school have spent the majority of their working lives as politicians and so have no idea about business or living on a low wage Jeremy Corbyn being a prime example. Labour MP’s seem to be the most hypocrytical, with nepotism and leaving their political beliefs behind when it comes to family Dianne Abbot privatly educated her son yet campaigns against private schools, Tony Benn campaigned aginst inherited wealth yet left all his considerable wealth to his children and they wonder why they are viewed with such contempt.

As I said, I can`t argue with much there.
The Lycee Henri IV is open to the public, ■■■■ seems to be very sought after and seems to lie outside of the national selection system.
etudiant.aujourdhui.fr/etudiant/ … grand.html
There is a laid out procedure “Affelnet”, but it is not universally applied.
cache.media.education.gouv.fr/fi … 754755.pdf
HHmmmm.
Since you mention Macron, his parents are certainly not “■■■■■ handed artisans” but maybe still not “political establishment” figures?

I did a quick look at half a dozen French and German MEPs, but Wiki has only thumbnails of them. Turned up one son a small farmer, and one qualified tool-maker. 12 isn`t much of a sample however.
I imagine that anyone having a famous or powerful parent would though have that mentioned? Maybe this is an exception to the rule “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”?

I think most western democracies have an unofficial ruling elite, the USA has no class system as such yet you are barred from running for President unless you have deep pockets or are a member of one the powerful families ie the Clinton’s and Bush’s. In Europe there are few outsiders getting in yes Macron did on a ticket that he was new, refreshing and different, yet has turned out to be nothing new, came in on promises of reform yet has backed down in the face of public protests something all his predecessors did as well so no change there. Merkel has ensured that her successor is Merkel Mk2 and so will continue with more of the same. The only country that seems to throw up a curve ball is Italy but then their politics have been one big curved ball since the start of Mussolini’s time in power.

The UK should have set terms for MP’s not sure how you would come with the length of time allowed to serve but I think no more than 15 years that is enough time to make a difference without becoming complacent and taking their voters for granted as well as bringing in people with fresh ideas and views.

Mazzer2:
I think most western democracies have an unofficial ruling elite, the USA has no class system as such yet you are barred from running for President unless you have deep pockets or are a member of one the powerful families ie the Clinton’s and Bush’s. In Europe there are few outsiders getting in yes Macron did on a ticket that he was new, refreshing and different, yet has turned out to be nothing new, came in on promises of reform yet has backed down in the face of public protests something all his predecessors did as well so no change there. Merkel has ensured that her successor is Merkel Mk2 and so will continue with more of the same. The only country that seems to throw up a curve ball is Italy but then their politics have been one big curved ball since the start of Mussolini’s time in power.

The UK should have set terms for MP’s not sure how you would come with the length of time allowed to serve but I think no more than 15 years that is enough time to make a difference without becoming complacent and taking their voters for granted as well as bringing in people with fresh ideas and views.

There are certainly problems with the current political systems.
The current US Pres Trump, was elected with less votes than Hilary Clinton, because of the historical horse-transport dependent roots of their electoral college system. She accepted the result, but we still dont know how the Trump camp may have reacted if it was tother way around?
A limited term for serving politicians sounds a good idea. Maybe those who “retire” would merely slide behind the curtains and still pull the strings?
Dr David Owen`s book The Hubris Syndrome looks at some issues, especially at the Bush/Blair venture. A very accessible read.
The Sortition/Lottocracy idea has some interesting upsides.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
And how about some of these for a look?
io9.gizmodo.com/12-futuristic-f … 1589833046

But none seem likely to help with our current travails!

Franglais:
There are certainly problems with the current political systems.
The current US Pres Trump, was elected with less votes than Hilary Clinton, because of the historical horse-transport dependent roots of their electoral college system. She accepted the result, but we still dont know how the Trump camp may have reacted if it was tother way around?
A limited term for serving politicians sounds a good idea. Maybe those who “retire” would merely slide behind the curtains and still pull the strings?
Dr David Owen`s book The Hubris Syndrome looks at some issues, especially at the Bush/Blair venture. A very accessible read.
The Sortition/Lottocracy idea has some interesting upsides.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
And how about some of these for a look?
io9.gizmodo.com/12-futuristic-f … 1589833046

But none seem likely to help with our current travails!

I wonder if one of the benefits of sortition isn’t the fact that it imposes constraints on the level of political and administrative complexity that can be sustained, and ensures that politics remains simple and comprehensible to the many.

Any office that acquires undue levels of difficulty that most occupants of the office cannot cope with, will ultimately result in mismanagement and destruction.

I recall reading an author a while ago who argued that complexity is what destroyed the Roman Empire, and may be what destroys ours:
wearestop.com/2016/09/comple … an-empire/ (I can’t find the source I originally read but this link makes reference to the same sort of thinking).

Franglais:
There are certainly problems with the current political systems.
The current US Pres Trump, was elected with less votes than Hilary Clinton,

The irony of Federalists moaning about the ‘current US president Trump’ and the US Federal electoral system.

Let alone Trump pretending to be a Nationalist in favour of Brexit having enthusiastically accepted that obviously contradictory position and denying the right of Texas,among other disillusioned states,to secede from the ‘Union’ as part of the job.

On that note remind us how many votes that the ‘current EU president’ got for the job even by your own Federalist standards ?.

While I’d guess that Trump’s supporters would be more than happy to replace their flawed Federal government system.With one in which California etc can choose to be ruled by Hilary’s policies.While other states which prefer Trump’s can choose to be ruled by his.You know along the lines of the original Confederal Constitution which the Federalists like James Madison hijacked for their own self serving ends.