Gillberry - for some with 30 years experience driving a range of different vehicles , picking the auto option for HGV is a sensible idea.
But for some one completely new to the industry and only driven cars before , surely learning in a manual is better as it will give you a basic understand, pretty much like the whole training package, of manual gear boxes should you come across them in your first weeks/months of the job.
Driving an auto you don’t really look at what gear your in, so if you train like that when it comes to driving a manual you may find people picking wrong gears.
They don’t learn to concentrate on 3 things (mirrors, road, gear change) only 2 (mirror and road) so when they go out on the road in a fully laden wagon they are essentially learning as they go rather than having that basic background knowledge.
It’s a case of giving yourself the best chance of keeping yourself and others safe out on the road.
Endgame:
I disagree, ROG.
Unless somebody is going to pay money to sit with instructors after passing the test (which isn’t really cost effective given the cost of training + test) then the only way to learn different gearboxes is behind the wheel of a truck somebody is clearly uncomfortable with - unsupervised. That’s dangerous.
You only ever learn one gearbox during training and there are loads of other sorts so how do you think we all learnt those after the test?
I passed cat C in a DAF CF, 4 over 4 with a switch, I passed CE with a slapover, so it’s not really a case of you learn to pass the test with only 1 manual.
Also, that doesn’t rectify the fact that if you pass in an auto, then get given a manual to drive, the learning process begins there. That would be classed as reckless driving, surely? Taking a large vehicle out on public roads, with a gearbox and a clutch, unsupervised, attempting to figure it out? What happens if you wipe someone out because you’re not fully concentrating on the road ahead? Telling the police/courts that you was too busy “learning how to use the gearbox” probably wouldn’t go down too well.
Endgame:
I disagree, ROG.
Unless somebody is going to pay money to sit with instructors after passing the test (which isn’t really cost effective given the cost of training + test) then the only way to learn different gearboxes is behind the wheel of a truck somebody is clearly uncomfortable with - unsupervised. That’s dangerous.
You only ever learn one gearbox during training and there are loads of other sorts so how do you think we all learnt those after the test?
I passed cat C in a DAF CF, 4 over 4 with a switch, I passed CE with a slapover, so it’s not really a case of you learn to pass the test with only 1 manual.
Also, that doesn’t rectify the fact that if you pass in an auto, then get given a manual to drive, the learning process begins there. That would be classed as reckless driving, surely? Taking a large vehicle out on public roads, with a gearbox and a clutch, unsupervised, attempting to figure it out? What happens if you wipe someone out because you’re not fully concentrating on the road ahead? Telling the police/courts that you was too busy “learning how to use the gearbox” probably wouldn’t go down too well.
Sinclair89 i understand what you are saying but before anyone can learn in a hgv they need to have held their license for a number of years and in that time should have some road experience . By the same token you can pass your car test in a 1 litre car and then drive a 3 litre car .
When you take your hgv course your instructor should be judging your driving skills and the areas where you need improvement .
Just because I’ve passed my class c doesn’t mean I know how to drive a lorry my learning starts now in the same way I passed my car test and then learnt to drive .
For everyone who passes their hgv license the learning really starts when the test is passed but at least you haven’t got the stress of being on test and this applies to those who passed in a manual as even the manual gearboxes in a lorry can be different .
The vast majority of lorry drivers started because of an interest in driving and one of those things is understanding the use of gears so even from an auo pass you should understand gearchanges in a manual of whatever type .
As I mentioned in my previous post it would be interesting to hear the experiences from those who passed in an auto also as a side note those who passed in a manual now they are out working .
I agree Gillberry that the learning doesn’t really start until you are out on the road. But on the same token, you want to give yourself the best chance when you are finally set loose. The Manual in a car is far different from a truck and you are unable to drive an manual car if you pass in an automatic car so why should it be different for trucks?
If you learn in a manual and you are given a manual you have a Basic understanding which help you.
If you learn in an auto and drive a manual you don’t have that basic understanding which won’t help.
Endgame before you can drive a lorry you have to held your license for a number of years and in this time should have learnt an understanding of gearchanges . Your instructor should be able to tell if you are competent behind the wheel be it an auto or a manual .
The instructors will cancel your training if you are not good enough whatever the vehicle .
Basically anyone who has passed their training has satisfied firstly their instructor and then the examiner that they can drive safely whatever vehicle you then use for work will be a new experience even down to trying to switch the wipers on while driving which is no different to the first time you get into a new car .
You are right the consequences of a hgv error can be catastrophic but do you not think that all are well aware of that fact and so will do some form of familiarisation when they first get into the vehicle they are about to take out .
Sorry Gillberry but finding the wipers switch is very different from gear boxes.
I learned in 4 over 4. Haven’t used once since. But I have used a 6 gear and an 8 gear slap over box (best way I can describe it) now they are different in make yes, but the theory behind them are essentially the same. But having the back ground knowledge made it that bit more easier to adapt.
If I went from auto onto a manual on my first day of driving, which is testing enough, it would have ended badly.
I’m not trying to say a person who passes in manual is better , what I am trying to say is this - trucking is hard enough in the beginning, so giving yourself the best start, which I believe to be learning in a manual, is a no brainer.
Sinclair89 in some ways I agree with your argument but the fact that you will have driven for a couple of years before you are allowed to apply for a hgv license means you have some understanding of gear changes if not the type of gearbox . The novice driver going for his hgv should be picked up on their skills or lack of by the instructor on their first lesson .
Assuming someone can’t drive a manual lorry because they passed in an auto assumes a lack of the necessary driving skill to drive a lorry . Standards of driving on the roads vary for car drivers before you look at anything else which means by the law of averages some people will take to lorry driving like a duck to water and some will struggle manual or auto will not make a significant difference .
Having just seen your post above this I agree the wiper switch to the gearbox are massive differences but the point of being different is what I am making .
Your new job in your new vehicle will be stressful but at the end of the day its all about if we have the ability to drive a hgv or not and a competent driver should be able to pick up the gearchanges whichever type of gearbox .
Gillberry - People all drive different and yes some find it easier than others. Yes I get the car gears experience to take to driving a truck but then you are presented with 3 more gears and with a higher/lower range. Not your basic 5 speed gear box. So with that basic understanding you can adapt to a truck.
But gear changing is a “skill” required at some point when driving. With auto it’s a simple flick of the button and away you go. You don’t have to prejudge your gears for anything, you just push the break and the box does everything else for you.
How can an instructor pick up on problems with your gear selection/judgement when in an auto it’s all done for you?
And if them problems aren’t picked up in a controlled environment where it can be tweaked and practised , then it’s going to cause issue when you come to driving one for the first time with a loaded wagon.
Think we can agree that it’s up to an individual to decide which way they want to do their test.
The issue is really those who can’t do gears at all and want to pass in an auto to get licence. Is this right or wrong, not for us to decide we have opinions on it that’s all.
When I do my CE I will choose auto , my choice but not because I can’t do gears or fear them just because it makes it easier on day.
I do worry about those who want to pass in an auto, BECAUSE they can’t do gears, being on the road when put into a manual, which they will be, but again, it’s only my opinion.
Learn in an auto by all means but not if that’s the only way you can get round understanding and USING manual gears !
Sinclair89 being in the right gear at the right time is dow to reading the road and conditions which needs to be done in an auto as well .
At the end of the day it is down to the individual on what makes them comfortable with their first experience behind the wheel of a hgv , once the test is passed and the first experience of driving for a living is encountered everything will feel strange unless you are lucky enough to encounter the same vehicle you passed your test in .
Gillberry - with the greatest respect, driving auto and manual in regards to timing are again two different animals.
With manual you have beging thinking what range you want to be in. What gear you need to be in. You then have to make them changes, all while looking at the road ahead and mirrors.
With auto you press the break pedal and the gear box sorts everything else for you whilst you look at the road ahead and mirrors.
It is down to the individual at the end of the day, and I hope that our friendly discussion will help those who are unsure about what path they want to take make a decision. Driving any vehicle outside of the test environment will be strange and daunting. Even if you get the same vehicle. It’s a different animal out on the road once them L Plates are removed. It’s just a case , I feel, of giving yourself the best chance once the stablelisers come off.
Sinclair89 yes hopefully our friendly discussion will help newcomers make an informed choice as at the end of the day that’s what this forum is about .
One thing needs to be remembered here. This thread was started by someone saying he failed his test for coming out on a roundabout with traffic coming due to messing up the gears. He then went for the test in an auto and passed. Does that not sound dangerous? His gear changes were bad enough,after 5 days of training,to fail a test. But pass in an auto and he can now drive with a manual?
Its not a case of passing the test and learning afterwards. He has shown that he is a danger to himself and others.
To me,its not a case of whats best for the learner,what the dvsa say,what training schools think or what anyone thinks is best. In this case,the OP has shown,and admitted,that he cant handle gear changes in a manual. So he went for the easier option and passed in an auto. And now that he has passed he can now,legally,go out unsupervised in a vehicle he has already demonstrated he cant drive. A vehicle that he has proven to have such difficulty with he cuts up traffic at roundabouts.
Can none of you banging on about the “easier option” see the problem with that?
Im sorry to say this to any learners out there but gear changes are really not difficult. If you cant do it and go for the auto option then your setting yourself up for a world of hurt.
Changing gear in a car is entirelly different from a truck. Learning with a fully loaded truck is NOT the time to figure it out. That time is empty,with an instructor beside you. Messing around with gears,getting distracted and having to slam on the anchors is not always going to end well.
Im not saying anyone who learns in an auto is a bad driver or dangerous. Or even that learning in an auto means you cant figure out manual on your own. All in saying is you need to prove it first. Pass in an auto,you should only be allowed to drive an auto.
Because I dont want to be the poor sod who gets annihalated while your doing 45mph and so busy looking at the gearstick trying to figure out where 7th is that you don’t realize youve drifted off course and heading straight for me
Many years ago as a rookie agency sent me to a job get there and the boss says I hope u are better than the other 2
What other 2 ?
The truck was an old Seddon Atkins unit that had been stretched into a 23T rigid
The first driver had jumped in and got straight back out
The second got about 100feet down the yard and got out
WHY well because it had a manual box that they had never seen before a
Twin Splitter now I had never drove 1 before either but I got it out the yard and taught myself should I have refused !!
Snowman the point is competence and any competent driver should not be looking at his gearstick instead of the road . That’s why we all have to cpc etc to prove that we are competent professional drivers and therefore capable of driving whatever is thrown at us .
Someone who has just passed their car license can get straight into a powerful car and cause mayhem but they don’t have to take courses to prove they are competent .
This forum is for discussion for newbies and the opinions we all express can help but surely the guys who run the driving schools must be happy that those passing their tests in autos must be okay if not they would all have manuals to train in and the dvsa would apply the same rules of car to hgv rather than a choice for us all .
Those decisions of individuals on what they choose to take their test in is theirs to make and should be respected .
There is a thread on this forum called rookie mistakes and yes what you are suggesting regarding accidents is lethal but the implication that everyone who passes in auto is liable to have accidents because they are looking at what gear they are in is a bit extreme . I’m sure there are drivers of experience who have missed gears before .
Am I the only one who has seen the first post? The OP admitted he came onto a roundabout while ■■■■■■■ around trying to find the right gear. He then blamed the van driver.
He has admitted he couldn’t handle a manual. Its proven in the reason of why he failed his test. He has proven he is not competent to drive this type of vehicle. He then went for n auto truck and passed.
I have no problem whatsoever with this. If he finds it easier in an auto then batter on. I have no doubt he will be safe and competent on the road or he wouldnt have passed his test.
But are you seriously suggesting that having read the first post he is competent to drive a manual unsupervised?
Gillberry:
the guys who run the driving schools must be happy that those passing their tests in autos must be okay if not they would all have manuals to train in
Its in a training schools interests to get everyone to pass. If it is easier in an auto then of course they will supply autos. But it does not make the learner an unsafe driver or a worse driver than someone who has passed in a manual. There will be plenty of new pass drivers out there who are more than capable to drive safely. And be fantastic drivers. Im not saying otherwise. What im saying is if a school only supplies autos how can you know if someone can handle gears? How do you know they are competent to drive a manual?
Gillberry:
the point is competence and any competent driver should not be looking at his gearstick instead of the road
This is true but unfortuntely it is human nature to lose concentration. Of course not everyone will look at the gearstick but some might.
Gillberry:
Those decisions of individuals on what they choose to take their test in is theirs to make and should be respected
Of course it is. It is perfectly legal to do it that way and in the most part I have no problem with it
Gillberry:
That’s why we all have to cpc etc to prove that we are competent professional drivers and therefore capable of driving whatever is thrown at us
There is no practical in the CPC course so telling someone about manual gears is pointless without practical
Gillberry:
Someone who has just passed their car license can get straight into a powerful car and cause mayhem but they don’t have to take courses to prove they are competent .
I dont agree with that either. But thats a different argument for a different thread on a different forum
Gillberry:
the implication that everyone who passes in auto is liable to have accidents because they are looking at what gear they are in is a bit extreme .
Im not implying everyone is automtically a liability. And yes it may seem extreme but are you honestly telling me its not a possibility?
Gillberry:
I’m sure there are drivers of experience who have missed gears before .
Of course there will be. Ive done it myself. But ive never been so focused on trying to find the right gear that ive cut up traffic. My point is not about missing gears. Its about being able to drive a vehicle youve shown you are dangerous in
Im going to take this oppertunity to apologise to the OP and any newbies reading this. Im not having a go at any of you personally. Its the law tht I think is wrong. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone passing their test in an automatic if they find it easier. I just dont think it is fair on other road users to be in danger while someone figures it out.
And yes the chances are extremelly slim it will end in disaster. But any chance is a chance to much
Gillberry:
Snowman the point is competence and any competent driver should not be looking at his gearstick instead of the road . That’s why we all have to cpc etc to prove that we are competent professional drivers and therefore capable of driving whatever is thrown at us .
Someone who has just passed their car license can get straight into a powerful car and cause mayhem but they don’t have to take courses to prove they are competent .
This forum is for discussion for newbies and the opinions we all express can help but surely the guys who run the driving schools must be happy that those passing their tests in autos must be okay if not they would all have manuals to train in and the dvsa would apply the same rules of car to hgv rather than a choice for us all .
Those decisions of individuals on what they choose to take their test in is theirs to make and should be respected .
There is a thread on this forum called rookie mistakes and yes what you are suggesting regarding accidents is lethal but the implication that everyone who passes in auto is liable to have accidents because they are looking at what gear they are in is a bit extreme . I’m sure there are drivers of experience who have missed gears before .
Sitting the CPC does not make a driver competent when it comes to gears
The fact still stands, that learning to drive a manual HGV, unsupervised, when the driver has only ever shown competence in an auto, is dangerous. As Snowman mentioned, not ALL drivers are going to go on to have issues, and yes, each person is entitled to train however they see fit, but after all is said and done, if you pass in an auto, you should only be able to drive an auto, suggesting to learn whilst on a job, on public roads, unsupervised, is a recipe for disaster.
I can use myself as a lesser example. I passed both my tests in manuals, I now drive an auto, and after 1 month, I STILL go for a gear stick that isn’t there, which momentarily lapses my concentration. I STILL try to find the clutch. This causes a distraction, but I soon rectify myself. So if that was the other way round, and you’re used to handling the truck like a massive go kart, then you get given a clutch and gearstick, surely that is going to be more of a distraction? You know, “learning to handle the gears whilst on the job”?
As mentioned before, what IF something does go ■■■■ up? What if a driver wipes out an entire family walking down the pavement? OR wipes somebody out on a roundabout? Would telling the families or courts that you was unfamiliar with that vehicles gearbox be of any consolation?
Are drivers these days less competent than we were in our day when we passed?
Most of us oldies passed in a straight 6 with no splitter or range change then we went on to drive trucks with both and we managed very safely
I had straight 4/5 gear cars then went on to pass the old HVG class 1 in a straight 6 and my first assessment was in an artic with both range and splitter - I, along with every other driver in those days asked how it worked then we drove it … made even harder at times as many were still crash boxes !!
Had I at that time passed in an auto then the situation on that assessment would have been the same
