Motor car drivers to be allowed to drive trucks

An interesting discussion. I have C1 on my license and have driven 7.5 tonne gvw vehicles on the road (prior to Sept 2013). Also moved a 26 tonne gvw and an 18? tonne gvw on private land, I hasten to add.

For me it wan’t the gvw of the vehicle that was the problem, more the vehicle dimensions. I was more than happy to move a skip (chain) wagon anywhere. A long wheel base 7.5 tonner, much less so. Did not like moving the 26 tonner as I had no clue about the splitter gearbox. (Aplogies if I have got this wrong, there was a switch and two different ranges on the gear knob. All I had to do was move it about three yards to get a sprinter van out of the garage).

Actrosman:
Do you mean allowing those that drive cars to go straight to class 1? We have several at my depot already….and yes, their standards and abilities are way lower than those that went up through the ranks over a few years

No. the proposal is to go back to the rules pre 1997, when your car licence gave you automatic entitlement to category C1 (up to 7500 GVW), not Class 1 which is C+E.

I would agree that there’s something to be said for going up through the ranks. But just because you skipped the grades (many did even back in the day) doesn’t necessarily make you a worse driver.

LuckyMatty:

tachograph:
I can’t find anything about this on the internet, a link would help.

People who passed the car test before 1997 can already drive an HGV up to 7.5 tonnes and I honestly can’t see that limit going up any time soon.

Someone may be making noises about it but I can’t see it going any further than that.

msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/mot … 309ac2b77b

Thanks for that :wink:

So they’re talking about allowing car drivers to drive vehicles up to 7.5t, when I saw the topic title I had visions of car drivers racing around in artics without any further training, I can rest easy again now :smiley:

tachograph:

LuckyMatty:

tachograph:
I can’t find anything about this on the internet, a link would help.

People who passed the car test before 1997 can already drive an HGV up to 7.5 tonnes and I honestly can’t see that limit going up any time soon.

Someone may be making noises about it but I can’t see it going any further than that.

msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/mot … 309ac2b77b

Thanks for that :wink:

So they’re talking about allowing car drivers to drive vehicles up to 7.5t, when I saw the topic title I had visions of car drivers racing around in artics without any further training, I can rest easy again now :smiley:

Predictably lazy journalism from the Daily Telegraph. As I commented on there, all the stock pics they must have of 7.5 tonners and they headline the piece with four artics and an 18 tonne rigid.

Days were, if you had a provisional car licence and passed your Class one, you got your full car licence automatically. My mate got his full car licence that way.

The training vehicles used to have two ‘L’ plates, one a car type and the other, an HGV L plate to cover both of the above.

Quinny:
Go back 50+ years, and you could drive anything as long as you had a licence.

Ken.

Had to have a bit of nous, and brawn, those old wagons self regulated who could or who would want to drive one.
Bit different now, select D and press the loud pedal, don’t even need to release the switch masquerading as a park brake, one finger steering.

Could you imagine the reaction in a typical yard if an old boneshaker with a gearbox from hell no powersteering complete with flatbed trailer requiring handball loading then roping and sheeting turned up.

Looking back my 2 or 3 years on large vans and 7.5 tonners before i was 21 was a great grounding into transport before i took my class 1, getting used to wide vehicles and handling loads and learning just how little real grip a truck has on Michelins in the wet back then, better to cut your teeth on a little lorry than an artic.

Cracks me up “the good old days” of handballing, roping and sheeting and so. As if technological advances are a bad thing.

By rights people with that attitude shouldn’t post a reply. It was much better when smoke signals were used, sorted the wheat from the chaff that did more than this interweb thingy we’re all on. Never had that back in the good old days and everything was better then. Even scurvy.

Quinny:
Go back 50+ years, and you could drive anything as long as you had a licence.

Ken.

You can nowadays Ken :wink:

I went straight to class one at 18 courtesy of HMG. Lots of others did also.

Actrosman:
Do you mean allowing those that drive cars to go straight to class 1? We have several at my depot already….and yes, their standards and abilities are way lower than those that went up through the ranks over a few years

What a load of rubbish.
You’re trying to compare a new pass to someone with 50 years experience.

Sidevalve:

tachograph:

LuckyMatty:

tachograph:
I can’t find anything about this on the internet, a link would help.

People who passed the car test before 1997 can already drive an HGV up to 7.5 tonnes and I honestly can’t see that limit going up any time soon.

Someone may be making noises about it but I can’t see it going any further than that.

msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/mot … 309ac2b77b

Thanks for that :wink:

So they’re talking about allowing car drivers to drive vehicles up to 7.5t, when I saw the topic title I had visions of car drivers racing around in artics without any further training, I can rest easy again now :smiley:

Predictably lazy journalism from the Daily Telegraph. As I commented on there, all the stock pics they must have of 7.5 tonners and they headline the piece with four artics and an 18 tonne rigid.

if you understood the story, that’s what it’s about. Allowing access to 7.5T is seen as a route to hgv training.

stu675:
if you understood the story, that’s what it’s about. Allowing access to 7.5T is seen as a route to hgv training.

As I commented myself above; but I suspect there’s more to it than just a route.

At the moment, councils alone must be spending hundreds of thousands of pounds putting drivers through C1 licences so that they can drive little tippers and the like which form the backbone of council fleets. The majority of those vehicles probably don’t do more than a couple of hundred miles a week and as far as the blokes who drive them are concerned, it’s just transport to and from the various places where they dig holes, repair kerbs etc. Ditto small builders, roofers, etc. Deregulating the 7.5 tonners, or more to the point setting the law back where it was, would save those councils (and by definition us as ratepayers) a helluva lot of money and improve productivity too as those blokes would be digging holes instead of driver training.

Furthermore, as I also mentioned above, it’s an easy way to “try before you buy”. Cost of DCPC and digicard is far less than a week’s driver training, off you go in your puddle-jumper, if you like the job you go for the big boys licence, if you don’t you ain’t gambled all your savings away.

The only losers will be the training companies; but they’ve had it good for a while now.

Juddian:
Had to have a bit of nous, and brawn, those old wagons self regulated who could or who would want to drive one.
Bit different now, select D and press the loud pedal, don’t even need to release the switch masquerading as a park brake, one finger steering.

Could you imagine the reaction in a typical yard if an old boneshaker with a gearbox from hell no powersteering complete with flatbed trailer requiring handball loading then roping and sheeting turned up.

Whether or not others would like to admit it, that Juddian in my opinion is exactly why the haulage industry is where it is today. Flats were parked because new drivers couldn’t / wouldn’t rope and sheet so along came the curtainsider and if it went in and the curtains pulled then it was grand - nobody knew there was 25 tons of concrete sitting on the floor with nothing holding it down . Now even with reinforced curtains and ratchet straps they still can’t manage to keep a load on from A to B but the old chestnut "ropes aern’t safe / up to enxxxx standard "is the excuse you hear when the simple fact is they can’t drive , a good few of them out there aern’t fit to be trusted with anything bigger than a shopping trolley and even at that when you see the state of cars in a supermarket carpark you would have to wonder if a shopping trolley is to much for them .

beefy4605:

Juddian:
Had to have a bit of nous, and brawn, those old wagons self regulated who could or who would want to drive one.
Bit different now, select D and press the loud pedal, don’t even need to release the switch masquerading as a park brake, one finger steering.

Could you imagine the reaction in a typical yard if an old boneshaker with a gearbox from hell no powersteering complete with flatbed trailer requiring handball loading then roping and sheeting turned up.

Whether or not others would like to admit it, that Juddian in my opinion is exactly why the haulage industry is where it is today. Flats were parked because new drivers couldn’t / wouldn’t rope and sheet so along came the curtainsider and if it went in and the curtains pulled then it was grand - nobody knew there was 25 tons of concrete sitting on the floor with nothing holding it down . Now even with reinforced curtains and ratchet straps they still can’t manage to keep a load on from A to B but the old chestnut "ropes aern’t safe / up to enxxxx standard "is the excuse you hear when the simple fact is they can’t drive , a good few of them out there aern’t fit to be trusted with anything bigger than a shopping trolley and even at that when you see the state of cars in a supermarket carpark you would have to wonder if a shopping trolley is to much for them .

Of course, loads NEVER came off if they were roped and sheeted? Yes, you had to learn how to get the best out of those old motors (you do with the new ones but in a different way) but if you’re going to try and tell me that modern drivers are crap just because the job’s been made immeasurably easier for them, I’ll just laugh in your face; and I’m old enough to have seen both sides of it.

Mate, there were lousy drivers around then just as there are lousy drivers around now. Rose tinted specs are fine but it wasn’t ALL good.

““Flats were parked because new drivers couldn’t / wouldn’t rope and sheet so along came the curtainside””

Not true, the truth is Sheeting and Roping was/is an Art that few were able to master ! And done right and well gave the driver a lot of satisfaction ( well it did me). The Tautliner was developed to save time and money preparing a vehicle for the road helping for a speedy on time delivery. Depending on the cargo it used to take me up to 1 1/2 hours to Sheet and Rope a 40 ft trailer, making it secure and water proofing the load.
The straps inside a tautliner have never been the only suggested securing method, many times a driver would use ropes or his own straps to hold a load for transport.

And yes its true a Curtainsider stopped prying eyes but so does a sheet and rope if done right !
As to licensing, If memory serves HGV came in in 1970, and depending on experience you could be grandfather righted in on class 1, 2 or 3 prior to HGV you could drive any vehicle on a car license. Times have changed and for the better especially regarding health and safety, and as regulations and laws are implemented it will get tougher, Just like a lathe, screwdriver plane etc a truck is a tool, and unless its operated with responsibility and with in operating designs and obedience of laws there will still be serious injuries and deaths, in most part to driver error. And unless the Vehicle is operated accordingly, the criticisms and faults will continue to bring down the industry. The feeble excuses from the “its not my fault brigade”, will continue just as it has in other industries. However the dangers to the general public are more evident with a tragic probability within the Trucking world.

Sidevalve:

beefy4605:

Juddian:
Had to have a bit of nous, and brawn, those old wagons self regulated who could or who would want to drive one.
Bit different now, select D and press the loud pedal, don’t even need to release the switch masquerading as a park brake, one finger steering.

Could you imagine the reaction in a typical yard if an old boneshaker with a gearbox from hell no powersteering complete with flatbed trailer requiring handball loading then roping and sheeting turned up.

Whether or not others would like to admit it, that Juddian in my opinion is exactly why the haulage industry is where it is today. Flats were parked because new drivers couldn’t / wouldn’t rope and sheet so along came the curtainsider and if it went in and the curtains pulled then it was grand - nobody knew there was 25 tons of concrete sitting on the floor with nothing holding it down . Now even with reinforced curtains and ratchet straps they still can’t manage to keep a load on from A to B but the old chestnut "ropes aern’t safe / up to enxxxx standard "is the excuse you hear when the simple fact is they can’t drive , a good few of them out there aern’t fit to be trusted with anything bigger than a shopping trolley and even at that when you see the state of cars in a supermarket carpark you would have to wonder if a shopping trolley is to much for them .

Of course, loads NEVER came off if they were roped and sheeted? Yes, you had to learn how to get the best out of those old motors (you do with the new ones but in a different way) but if you’re going to try and tell me that modern drivers are crap just because the job’s been made immeasurably easier for them, I’ll just laugh in your face; and I’m old enough to have seen both sides of it.
Mate, there were lousy drivers around then just as there are lousy drivers around now. Rose tinted specs are fine but it wasn’t ALL good.

The job is easier - no question or arguement there but standards should be rising should they not ? Plainly they are not . You must have see the newcomers with the ink still wet on their licence demanding / being let loose with a 600 hp + truck and load and little or no idea of the forces at play , being driven like gocarts . A 320 Iveco with a crash box and a load of spuds in 25 kg bags that were roped and sheeted on put a little fear in you until you understood what was going on . Of course there were bad drivers back in the "good old " days no arguement about it- standards ain’t improving - you have to ask why ?

I got my class 1 on grandad rights and went OK; I think because I’d been all over the country with my father as a youngster. When I first started on an artic, I could load, sheet and rope from the off. People don’t have that privilege now. What I have seen on our holidays back there is a diabolical lack of courtesy from some hvg “drivers” nowadays. I don’t look back with rose tinted spec’s at ‘the good old days’, but every bugger seems to have the need to be first, and woe betide anyone that holds them up.
There were some ratbags back in the day, but nothing that compares to today’s mob.

What’s changed is that the job is now so easy, and arguably so well paid for such little actual work/nous/skill/effort/muck involved, that is has attracted and allowed to flourish a breed of driver wholly unsuited to the job.
They simply wouldn’t be in the job if it was as it used to be.
No one’s saying either that all new drivers are rubbish and yes there were bad drivers in the past, what’s different is that one had to have some mechanical aptitude to drive the old motors where anyone can now get in a modern truck and take it out on the road, any who can’t see the standards have dropped rapidly is denying reality.

No one’s arguing about wishing going back to those days, but you have to be careful how desirable the job becomes because it doesn’t take a genius to work out that the so called driver shortage and the subsequent well paid job its become can very quickly tip the other way if it becomes flooded with those who just see it as a route to a fast and easy buck, just be careful what you wish for.

" what’s different is that one had to have some mechanical aptitude to drive the old motors "

I remember when I first left the military, I drove an old Dodge which sprung a diesel leak in a high pressure fuel line, Stranded between Silverstone and Towster. The only tools I had was an adjustable and a screw driver. After what must of been all night I managed to remove the pipe and get a little sleep in the day cab ! Next morning I hitched into North Hampton and to a company who made me a new pipe. (all arranged by the boss) I hitched back and fitted the new pipe and continued to Southampton. Stinking of Diesel i was promptly reloaded and sent on my merry way. Only being able to have a stripped wash and changing clothes at a public toilet facility. My next pay check bought me a comprehensive tool kit in metric and imperial plus sockets. Never again to be caught without the right tool for the unexpected task. As to mechanical training? I had only ever changed a wheel on a Land Rover before so it was on the job self training.

I also changed out the turbo on my F12 in Belgium during mid winter, spent all Saturday morning tracking one down and managed to replace it by Sunday night, in time for the German boarder opening at 10pm. And then there was a water pump that stranded me in Hannover for a week.
There were others but not as memorable nor as smelly or dirty but hey that’s Trucking, or it was. I agree the old days were a challenge and you did what you had to do to get the job done.
I knew a young Woman who worked for Stevens Transport, the only way she got the job was by changing a super single on a trailer unaided. chauvinism was a live and well back then, so modern time have progressed, although still lagging in equality !!

You’re a dying breed Sabretooth,and anyone else that has the ability to repair/mend/make do to get themselves safe/where they need to be.
All too often I hear drivers complaining about having to change a bulb, and not even a headlight bulb (Actros ones are a pain mind), with some even uttering the immortal phrase of ‘I’m not an electrician’.
At a previous place I worked I’d have people lined up asking me to change a bulb, even while I was busy loading demounts onto the wag and drag.
That same place soon introduced a system of ‘if it’s broke, defect it, wait for the fitter, no driver to fit bulbs’, so some vehicles didn’t leave the yard for 4 hours, sometimes longer as the fitter was at a different company’s yard doing their defects first.

Juddian:
What’s changed is that the job is now so easy, and arguably so well paid for such little actual work/nous/skill/effort/muck involved, that is has attracted and allowed to flourish a breed of driver wholly unsuited to the job.
They simply wouldn’t be in the job if it was as it used to be.
No one’s saying either that all new drivers are rubbish and yes there were bad drivers in the past, what’s different is that one had to have some mechanical aptitude to drive the old motors where anyone can now get in a modern truck and take it out on the road, any who can’t see the standards have dropped rapidly is denying reality.

No one’s arguing about wishing going back to those days, but you have to be careful how desirable the job becomes because it doesn’t take a genius to work out that the so called driver shortage and the subsequent well paid job its become can very quickly tip the other way if it becomes flooded with those who just see it as a route to a fast and easy buck, just be careful what you wish for.

To a degree; what has undeniably changed is how we learn the job. Back in the day, you started at the bottom and worked your way up. You learned techniques and skills mostly via the time-honoured method of “sitting next to Nelly”, which of course meant that the benefits of learning good skills could often be cancelled by learning sharp practices and bad habits.

For all that longer-serving drivers might ■■■■ and moan about DCPC, what it does (or rather should) afford is a common standard of basic knowledge of the law, basic loading and securing techniques and other essentials across the whole transport sector. If it had been better designed and applied in the early days, there might not be so much disdain for it now; but that’s another subject. Same applies to in-house driver trainers.

I think to a certain degree, the job has always attracted those who view it as “easy money”, but not perhaps for the obvious reasons. More in fact because however regulated and controlled your job might be, and however intrusive your employer’s methodology (trackers, driver facing cameras etc) it is still a job where you are “your own gaffer”, where you get variety on a daily basis if that’s what you want, and also where there is that slight element of permanent risk that keeps you focussed throughout the shift; or rather it should do. None of that is going to change whilst HGV’s still have steering wheels, even if they and the brakes are the only things we end up controlling. Self-parking cars may to some extent be a reality but I’ve yet to see it applied to backing a trailer onto a bay blindside!

Where doing your own repairs is concerned; personally I’ve never worked anywhere which insisted that fitters changed bulbs, and it’s something that not only should every driver of any vehicle be trained to do, but that manufacturers and designers should be forced by law, if necessary, to enable all but the most inept driver to achieve using a minimum of tools and effort. Unfortunately with the complex and frequently expensive LED set-ups being fitted nowadays to both cars and HGV’s, I fear that ship has long sailed. Same applies to many other things; given the cost and complexity of modern vehicles, and the fact that many are on contracts or leases which prohibit drivers from doing their own repairs, I can perhaps understand employers being reluctant to allow them lest it prove costly.