240
Thanks for letting me see the inside of a Viewline cab again, they really made you feel “King of the Road”.
Was the one that you owned the same one that was at High Ercall, something rings a bell that maybe we have had this conversation before.
If it was the fitters at High Ercall did a good job of repairing that gear lever!
Bassman
Dennis
As an employee I had a different out look on the benefits of the RTITB organisation. I ,and many others gained a lot from the courses offered by Motec, but one thing I will stress is that if you didn’t put the effort in you didn’t get the rewards.
I can well understand your feelings when you see an obvious waste of time and effort as you described ,re. the dole office candidate, but I’m sure that of the many who passed through Motec’s gates ,he was definitely a minority. To a lot of people the levy imposed on yours, and countless other firms , wasn’t wasted.
Cheers Bassman
So Bewick’s cheque is in the post then, Bassman 
ROF
And pigs might fly. What ,s your opinion.
Bassman
Bassman:
240Thanks for letting me see the inside of a Viewline cab again, they really made you feel “King of the Road”.
Was the one that you owned the same one that was at High Ercall, something rings a bell that maybe we have had this conversation before.
If it was the fitters at High Ercall did a good job of repairing that gear lever!Bassman
You’re welcome! And no, I didn’t have that one - wrong engine, for a start!! Further up this thread there’s a picture of the High Ercall machine in later life (in red), with mine alongside it, mostly cab-less (and that’s not me at the wheel!). Mine was ex RTITB, but worked all of its life in Preston.
I’m with Bassman all the way.Richard Read never moaned about the levy.He sent a few fitters on courses.I went four times. 
I put the following post on the W.H.Williams thread and thought as it explains a bit about the RTBI levy how it was calculated and the reason behind it, I should perhaps also post on here, for those that don’t read that thread but still might be interested. I am going to explain how we dealt with the levy and how we got out of paying it on the WHW thread.
When the levy of I believe 1.5% emolument arrived together with a massive bill, we went mad, after all at that time we had about 60 employees and it was a massive amount of money. Money that, in our eyes that reduced the amount we could invest, and do so much with that would benefit our business.
First of all I had to find out what was emolument. As most people know government departments come up with all these technical names that baffle us.
It turned out that emolument was the total cost we occurred from employing all employees. I.e. gross wages, including holiday pay plus employer’s contribution National Insurance plus any expense payments (subsistence meal allowances etc.). The figures were extracted from our Annual accounts and we were charged accordingly.
Dad told me I had to sort it out and make sure we didn’t pay anything.
To put the levy into context the HGV driving licence had just been introduced and the government were concerned about training sufficient new drivers, and decided to tidy up all transport training in one fair scoop.
Also in our case to put into context, as I said we had about 60 employees at that time but when the last payroll was completed when we closed we had exactly 250 employees on the payroll, which by any measurement was a significant increase. We had several months before just added a vehicle that took our working fleet of HGVs up to 100. Plus several service vehicles and company cars, and about 40 trailers. (I have managed to list reg nos of 224 vehicles ran between 1961-1986, a list that is far from complete)(I also have listed 231 former employees with names being added regularly as more are identified)
From these figures it is obvious we would either have to pinch trained staff from other employers or train our own. The government’s attitude was everyone should take an equal responsibility in training staff and share the cost, so the levy was introduced so that those who didn’t train staff paid the levy so that that money could be set off against the cost of those who did not train.
As I said earlier I was told to sort out so this levy did not cost us and I will explain in later posts what I did and what happened.
I can only thank Carl and Denis for their generous contributions to my early training. I didn’t go to Livingstone or High Ercall, my father did both. I was trained up by the local branch in Hull, but we had some nice new vehicles and classrooms 
Wheel Nut:
I can only thank Carl and Denis for their generous contributions to my early training. I didn’t go to Livingstone or High Ercall, my father did both. I was trained up by the local branch in Hull, but we had some nice new vehicles and classrooms
Oh! the pain felt by the Company cheque book was excruciating when we had to tear out one for the RTITB levy 
Dennis.PS I begrudged the ■■■■■ every ■■■■■■■ penny 
I’m more than a little surprised that a savvy lad like Bewick didn’t come up with an “In-House Training Scheme”, together with the paperwork, manuals, specifications and costs like wot we did. We, with the assistance and collaboration of the workforce, convinced the powers that be that we were willing and able to provide our employees with the relevant training to at least a comparable standard.
Must have cost a bit (I didn’t want to know the details) but it got the blighters off our back.
240
To be truthful when the gearlever broke I wasn’t driving ,I was doing the learning how to instruct bit from the passenger seat.
If memory serves me right we were leaving Keele services when the gear lever sheared off leaving about a 3inch stub.We managed to find a short bit of tube which fitted over the stub and I spent the journey back to High Ercall laid across the bonnet doing the actual gearchanges whilst the one driving operated the clutch. He couldn’t reach down far enough to do both and steer. This was part of driver training in those days!!
Looking back at the photo it bears out my memory of the Viewline that I was on was fitted with a Roller
That time at Motec was the sum total of my Viewline driving experience, I never worked for a firm that operated them.
Bassman
Hi. FOLKS, The paint job on the 8 wheeler is out of this world who ever done it was a Picasso Cheers Barry
Carl Williams,
That is the first time I have seen an explanation on how the RTITB levy worked. I knew that each firm paid a levy and the training was covered by that levy,but not how the levy was arrived at.
After returning from Motec and starting on the training side of the job I got used to hearing conversations about how to and having to maximise the grant to get the most out of the levy, and seeing RTITB accountants in their little white BMC 1100’s coming to see the Training Officer. It was certainly a different world to your average haulage company.
But it was a job I enjoyed and got a lot of satisfaction out of,seeing the pleasure on a mans face when he’d passed the test that you had spent a week or two drilling into him how to do it.
They were happy days ,but unfortunately the wages didn’t keep up with the times so I had to return to the sharp end. But what I learnt at Motec and during the following years on training stood me in good stead for the rest of my time at work. Fortunately for me ,I was on the receiving end of the RTITB scheme ,not the paying out end.
Cheers Bassman
Retired Old ■■■■:
I’m more than a little surprised that a savvy lad like Bewick didn’t come up with an “In-House Training Scheme”, together with the paperwork, manuals, specifications and costs like wot we did. We, with the assistance and collaboration of the workforce, convinced the powers that be that we were willing and able to provide our employees with the relevant training to at least a comparable standard.Must have cost a bit (I didn’t want to know the details) but it got the blighters off our back.
No no no !ROF,I viewed the RTITB(and still do) as just another layer of govermental interference,at a cost,which small and medium sized Hauliers struggled to absorb and because of the effort and additional costs to qualify for a grant it just wasn’t worth it.Fair enough for those lads who were the lucky ones and able to attend the various courses on offer during the years the RTITB operated,however,it is fairly obvious from some of the posts that they didn’t have a clue where the finance came from,and I bet the “jobs worth” instructors didn’t explain to them at the start of their couses that “both they and them” were the few that could enjoy the “largesse” of the RTITB curtesy of many hard working hauliers who were “forced” by statute to pay for the RTITB.My contention was OK if some firms want to contribute via a Volantry levy to a training scheme fair enough but those that didn’t should not have been forced to contribute.Besides,we trained many of our own drivers and a few fitters and they had a far better grounding and were better off for the experience as they were actually trained “on the job” and not by someone in a class room or training vehicle who probably couldn’t do or never had had a real job in their lives. 
Cheers Bewick.
Evening all, as I said before, an emotive subject!
ROF neatly summed up the reality…good for the troops…not so good for the operator…Unless he took time to study the actual labarynthine system, as ever, the devil was, and is in the detail. But you had to work at it, and argue your case, and beat the auditors on their own ground regarding the levy charged! Not at all easy if you were running a sound Hire and Reward operation, and that was the cause of so much resentment about the various schemes.
I would surmise that Carl was in a rather more fortunate position than many who were active in the actual hands on day to day operation of a Hire and Reward business. That word, “emolument”, so neatly summed up the basic flaw in the system…too complex, too expensive, and too removed from the reality of the industry.
The return on investment in hire and reward operation was falling at the time the RTITB was created, as a direct consequence of the revisions to the governing legislation, and move to Operator Licencing, introduced by Barbara Castle. In reality the whole sector, now totally liberalised was in decline, with new operators springing into being overnight. Yet no appreciable increase in potential traffic volumes, so simple maths tell the observer that rates would fall, and as a consequence business viability would suffer.
So what does Government do? Analyses, and forecasts potential industry growth, while ignoring the reality of too many chasing too little…but sees the need to train more potential recruits!( and quite rightly tries to put high standards into a low return industry). The quality of the courses, (as I said previously), cannot be faulted, nor can their outcome in personal esteem, but their overall cost, and the burden imposed by the overly complex scheme of levy on the industry really was a total disgrace…but the worst culprit, and biggest disaster ever to befall the industry was Mrs Castle, and the 64 Transport Act!
A little housekeeping to close, (and my apologies as it is well off thread), Bassman, that must have been “my” Viewline that you drove, the one that Chris, (Gardner 240), kindly posted photograps of in her various lives! WAN 183 G , Rolls 220, ZF AK 680 6 speed Kirkstall BDR, 9ft 6in wb. PAS, When I owned her she had the complete RTITB Log book with her, every journey, every drop of fuel, oil, washer liquid recorded, and of course every mile run! Hope that the current owner still has it, (and Ive still a set of door keys for her)! I bought her when I was in the market for some tractor units, the choice was Scania from my pal Chris Kelly, or Volvo, from my old employer Hartshornes, (parent of Junction 10). But I wanted the Viewline, so Hartshornes sold 6 FL10s, and I paid a fair price for" Wang". She then went to my friend Tony Summerfield at Supreme Bodies in Wolverhampton, where a ballast body to Pickford spec was built, complete with drawbar, and connections. The intention being to use her with a drawbar Rogers trailer that I had to carry one of my Abbot SPGs to shows. Lovely lorry to drive, and those ZF boxes were so quick, but that screen gave me the collywobbles on a bumpy road!(even with 4tonnes in the box)! The gear lever showed no sign of repair, so I presume that it was changed at some time in the past.
Barry, ROF, TAY384N, yes I have to agree that is a grand paint job, but her “original” paintwork as a tanker, and with exqusite sign writing and lining by my friend Maurice Partridge, was just as good. Interesting lorry, first with United at Leicester, then JCB at Rocester, as part of Mark Bamfords “Titanic Salvage Company”, (any one remember the advertisments in Commercial Motor)? and totally rebuilt, Gardner 180, Brown 6.600. tandem Eaton, Clark Chapman- John Thompson tank. An absolute dream, (and there is no better description) to drive, she epitomises everything that was great about Atkinsons! I sold her to Sam Steers of A1 Waste in Dublin, saw her advertised some years later, wife said go and buy her, I did not, as I wanted a new Tractor, and then Chris posts that photo! Looks to me as if she is in Ulster, and the new owner has spent some money on the body, and that nice paint. Tyres look like the set I put on, same as the front number plate!! Does`nt she look grand! I hope both the owners enjoy those lorries as much as I did and keep them in good fettle!
Sorry to go off thread, but these threads, and shared experiences I find a delight!
Cheerio all…Sante.
Saviem:
Evening all, as I said before, an emotive subject!ROF neatly summed up the reality…good for the troops…not so good for the operator…Unless he took time to study the actual labarynthine system, as ever, the devil was, and is in the detail. But you had to work at it, and argue your case, and beat the auditors on their own ground regarding the levy charged! Not at all easy if you were running a sound Hire and Reward operation, and that was the cause of so much resentment about the various schemes.
I would surmise that Carl was in a rather more fortunate position than many who were active in the actual hands on day to day operation of a Hire and Reward business. That word, “emolument”, so neatly summed up the basic flaw in the system…too complex, too expensive, and too removed from the reality of the industry.
The return on investment in hire and reward operation was falling at the time the RTITB was created, as a direct consequence of the revisions to the governing legislation, and move to Operator Licencing, introduced by Barbara Castle. In reality the whole sector, now totally liberalised was in decline, with new operators springing into being overnight. Yet no appreciable increase in potential traffic volumes, so simple maths tell the observer that rates would fall, and as a consequence business viability would suffer.
So what does Government do? Analyses, and forecasts potential industry growth, while ignoring the reality of too many chasing too little…but sees the need to train more potential recruits!( and quite rightly tries to put high standards into a low return industry). The quality of the courses, (as I said previously), cannot be faulted, nor can their outcome in personal esteem, but their overall cost, and the burden imposed by the overly complex scheme of levy on the industry really was a total disgrace…but the worst culprit, and biggest disaster ever to befall the industry was Mrs Castle, and the 64 Transport Act!
A little housekeeping to close, (and my apologies as it is well off thread), Bassman, that must have been “my” Viewline that you drove, the one that Chris, (Gardner 240), kindly posted photograps of in her various lives! WAN 183 G , Rolls 220, ZF AK 680 6 speed Kirkstall BDR, 9ft 6in wb. PAS, When I owned her she had the complete RTITB Log book with her, every journey, every drop of fuel, oil, washer liquid recorded, and of course every mile run! Hope that the current owner still has it, (and Ive still a set of door keys for her)! I bought her when I was in the market for some tractor units, the choice was Scania from my pal Chris Kelly, or Volvo, from my old employer Hartshornes, (parent of Junction 10). But I wanted the Viewline, so Hartshornes sold 6 FL10s, and I paid a fair price for" Wang". She then went to my friend Tony Summerfield at Supreme Bodies in Wolverhampton, where a ballast body to Pickford spec was built, complete with drawbar, and connections. The intention being to use her with a drawbar Rogers trailer that I had to carry one of my Abbot SPGs to shows. Lovely lorry to drive, and those ZF boxes were so quick, but that screen gave me the collywobbles on a bumpy road!(even with 4tonnes in the box)! The gear lever showed no sign of repair, so I presume that it was changed at some time in the past.
Barry, ROF, TAY384N, yes I have to agree that is a grand paint job, but her “original” paintwork as a tanker, and with exqusite sign writing and lining by my friend Maurice Partridge, was just as good. Interesting lorry, first with United at Leicester, then JCB at Rocester, as part of Mark Bamfords “Titanic Salvage Company”, (any one remember the advertisments in Commercial Motor)? and totally rebuilt, Gardner 180, Brown 6.600. tandem Eaton, Clark Chapman- John Thompson tank. An absolute dream, (and there is no better description) to drive, she epitomises everything that was great about Atkinsons! I sold her to Sam Steers of A1 Waste in Dublin, saw her advertised some years later, wife said go and buy her, I did not, as I wanted a new Tractor, and then Chris posts that photo! Looks to me as if she is in Ulster, and the new owner has spent some money on the body, and that nice paint. Tyres look like the set I put on, same as the front number plate!! Does`nt she look grand! I hope both the owners enjoy those lorries as much as I did and keep them in good fettle!
Sorry to go off thread, but these threads, and shared experiences I find a delight!
Cheerio all…Sante.
Hi Saviem,
I think one of the reasons I am able to speak on the subject was that I attended a course at High Ercall. Like you have said, the courses were very good, and I enjoyed the time there. In those days I very rarely took holidays perhaps less than a week a year and so for me it was a holiday. I went on a drivers’ assessors’ course, similar a tester’s course, so that I could travel with drivers who came for a job and assess their driving. During the course we did such things as a commentary whilst driving, and really were like an advance driver’s course on HGVs. Whether it improved my driving is questionable and I did use to go out with drivers to check on their driving before I went on the course.
However I must say from my experience the instructor I had was not ex-military but an ex HGV driver, and although his working day was a doddle by the standards I had been made to work, he certainly did as much, if not more than a school teacher. I cannot recall how many other staff we sent to MOTEC, but I can remember two. One was sent on a removal instructor course, and another one of our apprentices sent on an auto electrical course and I remember speaking to both of them and they agreed that they had benefited, as did we by them attending the course. We had always trained in our fashion drivers and porters for removals and the fact that we had a qualified in house instructor was a strong selling point to set us ahead of most local competition.
As I said I am going to explain, on the W.H.Williams thread, over the next few days of our training with Darlington Driver Training and Darlington Automotive Training Association, and how we got the block grant for On the job Training and the various grants etc. we obtained and how, so that our levy was virtually abolished and as I said made a profit out of training and the same time recruited many excellent staff that we trained. (I don’t think you can put a value on that.)It might take a day or so to get my rusty brain into memory mode.
Whatever anyone thinks of High Ercall, we had the HGV driving licence introduced and later the CPC for transport managers and some form of training was required as the older generation either moved on into retirement or that place down below where it is very hot and perhaps all of us from the transport world are destined.
Finally I would like to remind everyone that in the early days all HGV testers and instructors were trained at one or the other of the two MOTECs. Over the years we operated we needed a new influx of drivers and without this training we never could have found them.
Carl
Bassman:
240
To be truthful when the gearlever broke I wasn’t driving ,I was doing the learning how to instruct bit from the passenger seat.
If memory serves me right we were leaving Keele services when the gear lever sheared off leaving about a 3inch stub.We managed to find a short bit of tube which fitted over the stub and I spent the journey back to High Ercall laid across the bonnet doing the actual gearchanges whilst the one driving operated the clutch. He couldn’t reach down far enough to do both and steer. This was part of driver training in those days!!
Looking back at the photo it bears out my memory of the Viewline that I was on was fitted with a Roller
That time at Motec was the sum total of my Viewline driving experience, I never worked for a firm that operated them.Bassman
Love it - a real team effort!!
Actually Bewick,We did know who paid for the courses,We were told by the instructors and Richard Read.
leylandlover:
Actually Bewick,We did know who paid for the courses,We were told by the instructors and Richard Read.
Pleased to here that ll,but you would definitely have been in the minority,anyway,I hope you appreciated the opertunity you were given Cheers Bewick.
At the time I went I was employed by B+W Scania agents, I also attended Wulfrun college at that time and we were just told next week you are at Motec to sit City and Guilds exams, well I had presumed that my employers and the college had provided the course ( how would I know different !) as it was a definite no no to question the why’s and where for !