Its important for us now not to be getting infringements, as regularly getting them is resulting in written warnings. I got another for ‘insufficient daily rest’.
I usually accept my infringements without question and put it down to the fact i must of not been paying attention or mis timed something. This one was…
Tuesday 9/12/2008 start 06.00 finish 18.01
Wednesday 10/12/2008 start 03.00 finish 16.00
Looks like i have had a minute short of my reduced daily rest. So i printed out the days in question, and low and behold…
The infringement notice does say tacho graph and/or other records. My time sheet says finish at 18.00 hours and start at 03.00. So they have taken an actual finish of 18.01 and put it to the recorded on time sheet start time of 3 am and lo and behold its short!!
Office say they just go on the info they get from tacho man. Tacho man says i just provide the info, what they do with it is up to them…Anyone else think its barmy or is it just me?
Point 1 is rubbish, you did not exceed the 10 hour daily driving limit by 7 hours 25 minutes. They have only arrived at this due to miscalculating your daily rest period. If you had only taken 8 hours 59 minutes rest then you would indeed be guilty of 17 hours 25 minutes driving without a rest. However, you took a daily rest of 9 hours 3 minutes so are in the clear.
Of course if you had already taken3 reduced rest periods since ending your previous weekly rest then everything I said above is ■■■■■■■■ and you are in fact as guilty as a guilty person.
Does it matter to VOSA what time you put the card back in although it is still rest time?
I ask this because a couple of months ago I parked on the A66. Something woke me up and I looked at my phone and thought it said 5am. I jumped out of bed, started the engine and pushed in the card. it was then I realised it was only 3am.
If it still counts as rest than I am ok but would an officious VOSA man treat it as other work?
Mike-C:
Its important for us now not to be getting infringements, as regularly getting them is resulting in written warnings. I got another for ‘insufficient daily rest’.
I usually accept my infringements without question and put it down to the fact i must of not been paying attention or mis timed something. This one was…
Tuesday 9/12/2008 start 06.00 finish 18.01
Wednesday 10/12/2008 start 03.00 finish 16.00
Looks like i have had a minute short of my reduced daily rest. So i printed out the days in question, and low and behold…
The infringement notice does say tacho graph and/or other records. My time sheet says finish at 18.00 hours and start at 03.00. So they have taken an actual finish of 18.01 and put it to the recorded on time sheet start time of 3 am and lo and behold its short!!
Office say they just go on the info they get from tacho man. Tacho man says i just provide the info, what they do with it is up to them…Anyone else think its barmy or is it just me?
going on your print outs you had a rest of 9 hours and 3 Min’s, and i think the reason you supposed to have done 17 hours 25 Min’s driving is that the tacho Analyzer did not see that when you finished your shift you did not put it on rest before you took your card out and the software there use IMO did not see a rest between 18.01-03.04 if you drive the same truck every day and you put your card in do a manual entry to say from 18.01-03.04 you were on rest, that’s why you have the option to do just that.
when i had digi tacho training we were told to show all work, drive and rest for the full 24 day because of the said infringement in your post
They appear be checking your driver card against your time sheets in which case I’m afraid that they’re probably within their rights to issue these infringements.
You booked off at 18:00 but the Driver card clearly shows that you worked until 18:01 so I can’t see how they could take any time as your finish time other than 18:01.
You booked on at 03:00 and presumably that’s when you get paid from but in any case it’s when you’re saying that you started work, regardless of what the printout shows technically your working day started when you booked on at 03:00 and that would give you 1 minute short of the required 9 hours rest.
In the unlikely event that the authorities checked the company records I imagine they would most likely take the same view as the company, that your finish time had to be what shows on the driver card and your start time is when you say it was.
It seems extremely harsh and if it was me I’d be trying to talk them into binning the infringements but at the end of the day I’m afraid they’re probably within their rights to issue them.
Tachograph has basically said what I was going to.
If you put 1800 down as your finish but you didn’t take your card out until 1801, then it’s not unreasonable to assume 1801 was your real finish time.
If you put 0300 as your start time then even if you don’t put your card in until several minutes after that, it’s not unreasonable to assume 0300 was your actual start time and the time inbetween the two (0300-0304 in this case) would go down as other work.
This does indeed only leave an 8h59 daily rest.
I would just sign it, put it down to experience, and be more careful with card insertion and ejection times from now on.
I realise that a timesheet is a legal document too. But to my mind it crazy to get an infringement for that. If its ok to ignore the quoted finish time of 18.00 and take an actual finish time of 18.01, then it should be fair to assume that you could ignore the quoted start time of 3 am and take an actual one of 03.05 ? This taking actual figures against quoted ones has to work both ways surely? Ultimately if a commonsense approach is used the card shows more than 9 hours rest and the timesheet which clearly i have used to round up start and finish times shows 9 hours. Interestingly this does not attract any points, it leaves me with a bigger problem of exceeding driving hours in a day. If i’d of entered 03.05 on my timesheet we would not be seeing this infringement, and i would of still had the same amount of rest ! As it is i’m a liability driving 17 odd hours in one day and not having enough daily rest. Worlds gone mad.
As it is now anyway, we all have guidelines…15 minute break needs to be 20 mins, 30 min break needs to be 35 mins, 45 min break needs to be 50 mins, 9 hours min rest needs to be 9 and quarter hours, etc…
I’m the first one to jump down the throat of over zealous officials, in this case it starts a lot closer to home !! I’ll be off on a course soon on how to use a clock !!
Mike-C:
I realise that a timesheet is a legal document too. But to my mind it crazy to get an infringement for that. If its ok to ignore the quoted finish time of 18.00 and take an actual finish time of 18.01, then it should be fair to assume that you could ignore the quoted start time of 3 am and take an actual one of 03.05 ? This taking actual figures against quoted ones has to work both ways surely?
That’s the way I see it. Both the time sheet and the digi card when viewed separately show a legal daily rest period, it’s only when they take one set of figures from one record and one from the other the so called infringement occurs. You may have filled your time sheet in by taking times from your watch and that differs slightly from the digi tacho clock but regardless all documents show a legal rest period.
To my mind the important record here is the digi tacho one and that shows a legal break. If you get stopped by VOSA in the coming days and they check your card are they going to find 17 hours and 25 minutes of driving and insufficient daily rest? No, they aren’t so I would tell them to poke their infringement sheet as it is clearly just ■■■■■■■■.
Coffeeholic:
No, they aren’t so I would tell them to poke their infringement sheet as it is clearly just ■■■■■■■■.
I’ve had similar stuff where the misanalysis of tachos has come up with incorrect infringments and in this situation I always just take the path of least resistance and sign it. They’re only doing it to keep VOSA happy, they don’t give a monkeys about it any more than you do. I would just sign it, bin it, and forget about it.
One I remember was where it claimed I had driven 5h without a 45, when in fact I had done something like this:
Drive 3h.
Break 35min.
Drive for about 30 seconds (had to move the wagon as I had inadvertently parked in someone’s way).
Break 10min.
Drive 1h.
Break 30min.
Drive 4h.
Except the scanner/software didn’t notice the 30s of driving and so incorrectly took the 35+10 as my 45, and lumped all the rest of the driving together making 5h. I couldn’t be arsed to argue though, signed the sheet and that was that.
Coffeeholic:
No, they aren’t so I would tell them to poke their infringement sheet as it is clearly just ■■■■■■■■.
I’ve had similar stuff where the misanalysis of tachos has come up with incorrect infringments and in this situation I always just take the path of least resistance and sign it. They’re only doing it to keep VOSA happy, they don’t give a monkeys about it any more than you do. I would just sign it, bin it, and forget about it.
One I remember was where it claimed I had driven 5h without a 45, when in fact I had done something like this:
Drive 3h.
Break 35min.
Drive for about 30 seconds (had to move the wagon as I had inadvertently parked in someone’s way).
Break 10min.
Drive 1h.
Break 30min.
Drive 4h.
Except the scanner/software didn’t notice the 30s of driving and so incorrectly took the 35+10 as my 45, and lumped all the rest of the driving together making 5h. I couldn’t be arsed to argue though, signed the sheet and that was that.
Paul
You have driven without the breaks, the 10 minute break isn’t long enough it should be 15 to go with the second 30 minute break and taking the 35 and the 30 together is wrong because the second break is longer than the first, I’ve collected an infringment for that very thing. A 30 minute W/T break followed by a 30 min tacho break but the first break was 31 minutes. Got an infringement for 4.5 driving without a break, and annoyingly my drive time for the day was 4hour 35 minutes.
Except in Reptons case the analyst is talking ■■■■■■■■.
Drive 3h.
Break 35min.
Drive for about 30 seconds (had to move the wagon as I had inadvertently parked in someone’s way).
Break 10min.
Drive 1h.
Break 30min.
Drive 4h.
Start shift, Drive 3.00
Break 35 Minutes. Counts as 15
Driven 30 seconds means 3 hours 30 seconds.
Break 10 minutes means absolutely nothing.
Driven 1 hour means 4 hours & 30 seconds.
Break for 30 minutes plus the earlier 15 minutes puts the clock back to zero.
4 Hours driving will then add up to 8 hours and 30 seconds.
Coffeeholic:
No, they aren’t so I would tell them to poke their infringement sheet as it is clearly just ■■■■■■■■.
I’ve had similar stuff where the misanalysis of tachos has come up with incorrect infringments and in this situation I always just take the path of least resistance and sign it. They’re only doing it to keep VOSA happy, they don’t give a monkeys about it any more than you do. I would just sign it, bin it, and forget about it.
One I remember was where it claimed I had driven 5h without a 45, when in fact I had done something like this:
Drive 3h.
Break 35min.
Drive for about 30 seconds (had to move the wagon as I had inadvertently parked in someone’s way).
Break 10min.
Drive 1h.
Break 30min.
Drive 4h.
Except the scanner/software didn’t notice the 30s of driving and so incorrectly took the 35+10 as my 45, and lumped all the rest of the driving together making 5h. I couldn’t be arsed to argue though, signed the sheet and that was that.
Paul
You have driven without the breaks, the 10 minute break isn’t long enough it should be 15 to go with the second 30 minute break and taking the 35 and the 30 together is wrong because the second break is longer than the first, I’ve collected an infringment for that very thing. A 30 minute W/T break followed by a 30 min tacho break but the first break was 31 minutes. Got an infringement for 4.5 driving without a break, and annoyingly my drive time for the day was 4hour 35 minutes.
Where in the regulations does it say that a break can’t count as the first part of a split break if it’s longer than the second part which is what I assume you mean
There’s no such rule and if you’ve been given an infringement for that then you really should have told your TM to stick the infringement where the sun don’t shine
In the example from repton only fifteen minutes of the 35 minute break would count for the split break but the fact that it’s longer than the second part of the break in no way nullifies the entire 35 minute break from counting towards a split break.
Example:
Drive 3 hours.
Break 31 minutes.
Drive 1.5 hours.
Break 30 minutes.
Perfectly legal and the driving time is now reset as you’ve had the required breaks for the 4.5 hours driving.
Mike-C:
I realise that a timesheet is a legal document too. But to my mind it crazy to get an infringement for that. If its ok to ignore the quoted finish time of 18.00 and take an actual finish time of 18.01, then it should be fair to assume that you could ignore the quoted start time of 3 am and take an actual one of 03.05 ? This taking actual figures against quoted ones has to work both ways surely? Ultimately if a commonsense approach is used the card shows more than 9 hours rest and the timesheet which clearly i have used to round up start and finish times shows 9 hours. Interestingly this does not attract any points, it leaves me with a bigger problem of exceeding driving hours in a day. If i’d of entered 03.05 on my timesheet we would not be seeing this infringement, and i would of still had the same amount of rest ! As it is i’m a liability driving 17 odd hours in one day and not having enough daily rest. Worlds gone mad.
As it is now anyway, we all have guidelines…15 minute break needs to be 20 mins, 30 min break needs to be 35 mins, 45 min break needs to be 50 mins, 9 hours min rest needs to be 9 and quarter hours, etc…
I’m the first one to jump down the throat of over zealous officials, in this case it starts a lot closer to home !! I’ll be off on a course soon on how to use a clock !!
im with you all the way on this one mike,i wonder however if you would have slipped into a state of comatose for not having enough rest by 1 minute.i know before anyone says anything rules are there to be followed,there shall be no grey areas.however,more and more grey areas are being pushed our way,ie 15 mins break now 20 etc,laws being implented behind almost closed doors,and even better a double standard mafia over seeing trucks and operators,oh and whilst im on,machines that are incapable of adding up.
i found this which may explain the 30 seconds of movement not been counted
How the digital tachograph records
The digital tachograph assigns a calendar minute to ‘driving’ when vehicle
movement is detected in that minute. If the vehicle unit detects signals from the
motion sensor for more than five consecutive seconds, it will record ‘driving.’
Detection of impulses is discreet rather than ■■■■■■■■■■■ In other words, a vehicle
could move a number of times in a calendar minute, each one for five seconds or
less and the digital tachograph would not record ‘driving’.
Coffeeholic:
No, they aren’t so I would tell them to poke their infringement sheet as it is clearly just ■■■■■■■■.
I’ve had similar stuff where the misanalysis of tachos has come up with incorrect infringments and in this situation I always just take the path of least resistance and sign it. They’re only doing it to keep VOSA happy, they don’t give a monkeys about it any more than you do. I would just sign it, bin it, and forget about it.
One I remember was where it claimed I had driven 5h without a 45, when in fact I had done something like this:
Drive 3h.
Break 35min.
Drive for about 30 seconds (had to move the wagon as I had inadvertently parked in someone’s way).
Break 10min.
Drive 1h.
Break 30min.
Drive 4h.
Except the scanner/software didn’t notice the 30s of driving and so incorrectly took the 35+10 as my 45, and lumped all the rest of the driving together making 5h. I couldn’t be arsed to argue though, signed the sheet and that was that.
Paul
You have driven without the breaks, the 10 minute break isn’t long enough it should be 15 to go with the second 30 minute break and taking the 35 and the 30 together is wrong because the second break is longer than the first, I’ve collected an infringment for that very thing. A 30 minute W/T break followed by a 30 min tacho break but the first break was 31 minutes. Got an infringement for 4.5 driving without a break, and annoyingly my drive time for the day was 4hour 35 minutes.
Where in the regulations does it say that a break can’t count as the first part of a split break if it’s longer than the second part which is what I assume you mean
There’s no such rule and if you’ve been given an infringement for that then you really should have told your TM to stick the infringement where the sun don’t shine
In the example from repton only fifteen minutes of the 35 minute break would count for the split break but the fact that it’s longer than the second part of the break in no way nullifies the entire 35 minute break from counting towards a split break.
Example:
Drive 3 hours.
Break 31 minutes.
Drive 1.5 hours.
Break 30 minutes.
Perfectly legal and the driving time is now reset as you’ve had the required breaks for the 4.5 hours driving.
delboytwo:
i found this which may explain the 30 seconds of movement not been counted
It was an analogue chart, and if you looked at it properly you could see the line where I moved the vehicle, but for some reason the scanner/software didn’t pick it up.
tofer:
You have driven without the breaks, the 10 minute break isn’t long enough it should be 15 to go with the second 30 minute break and taking the 35 and the 30 together is wrong because the second break is longer than the first, I’ve collected an infringment for that very thing. A 30 minute W/T break followed by a 30 min tacho break but the first break was 31 minutes. Got an infringement for 4.5 driving without a break, and annoyingly my drive time for the day was 4hour 35 minutes.
You don’t have to have seperate WT and tacho breaks though, which I think is what you’re trying to say from that post. How would someone analysing your tacho know what kind of break is what? There is only one break position after all!
