If the ERF Atkinson merger had gone ahead, it was the consensus of opinion at the time that ERF would have killed off the Atkinson name to gain their market share - in much the same way that MAN has done to ERF very recently, but Peter Foden always denied this saying that both companies could continue to develop new products and grow. I’m not so sure what would have ultimately happened. Today MAN has lost almost 70% of ERF’s old loyal market, and much the same would have happened in 1970 I feel.
ERF had a much stronger market position by 1970, their products being seen by many as well advanced over Atkinson, especially with the introduction of the new ERF ‘A Series’ of tractor units in late 1970. They were lighter, better designed chassis wise and much better appointed than the newly introduced Mk2 cabbed Silver Knight, but Atkinson loyalty kept the Mk2 / Borderer sales boyant for the next five years, which is astonishing when you look at all the competition they had by then.
ERF continued to build the old underslung sprung LV spec lorries (very similar design to Atkinson’s old Silver Knight chassis), including tractor units, for customers that were sceptical of the new ‘A Series’ design units right up until the B Series was launched in 1975, which was of course based on the A Series chassis design, as were all ERF chassis for the next 20 years.
Hiya …can i say while we’re slaging of british trucks compared to the sweeds…
as said before about the F88/89 been a super machine that arrived in 1969/70.
it was also new to the sweedes… have a look at any pre 1967 volvo’s scanis’ maggi’s
merc and so on do you remember the Dafs that onward run for a while… they could scare
the life out of kids. you’d have chosen a Atki for style anyday. the volvo’s was the most ugly
truck you could buy. everything had a bonnet 8 ft long which would have been crap in london
with a 30 ft trailer yet alone a 40 ft… in about 1980 mercedees marketed there cab as a Happy
cab, they claimed it was smiling at you…please yourself what you think of that.
John
Your posts are always informative and well researched Graham , pity there are not a few more like that , who would do some research then give opinions instead of sounding off when a topic doesn’t suit them! (no relation btw!)
LB76:
Your posts are always informative and well researched Graham , pity there are not a few more like that , who would do some research then give opinions instead of sounding off when a topic doesn’t suit them! (no relation btw!)
Is this the very same LB76 that when the question was asked less than 12 months ago on this very forum “What was so good about Atkinson’s”…may I quote…
LB76:
there is one answer to this and that is “Nothing”- heaps of fibreglass crap.
And when Dennis leapt like a coiled spring to their defence…
LB76:
yes i am afraid it is untreatable , i enjoy reading you post though as you seem to be clued up and unbiased (which is more than you can say for me) i hate anything with a plastic cab and an engine that took so long to die down between gears that you could walk round while you were waiting .keep up the good work
gingerfold:
Ah yes, Atkinsons. Always a lorry many small hauliers aspired to own in the '50s and '60s, but by the '70s they were becoming dated and epitomised some of the best and worst features of British lorry manufacturing. Atkinsons were built, according to a haulier friend of mine, by wizzened old men smoking woodbines and wielding a four pound lump hammer backed up with a blunt hacksaw. Probably a bit of a harsh summary methinks, but I know what he meant.
Despite the criticism of Seddon and its takeover of Atkinson in 1970, the Oldham firm did recognise Atkinson customers’ loyalty to the marque and kept the Borderer in production for another 5 years. The late Frank Whalley did tell me that Seddon and Atkinson could not always build to a customer’s requested specification because of component supply shortages and problems in the early '70s, so to keep the production line going they fitted what was available.
By the way, before Seddon completed the takeover of Atkinson negotiations were well advanced between ERF and Atkinson for a merger, but Seddon was able to complete a deal because Leyland had 30% of the Atkinson shareholding and preferred to sell its shares to Seddon rather than ERF. Yet another example of Leyland helping to destroy thje British lorry manufacturing industry.
As you say, Graham, the industry as a whole was plagued with component supply issues in that period, although Frank did tell me years later that there was a definite directive from Oldham to impose the Seddon axle even where customers had not specified it. Where there was a waiting list for vehicles, customers were unlikely to decline the chassis they had waited for. This was a stunt they were less likely to pull on a large customer.
You are right to say that it was Leyland’s decision to accept the Seddon offer which spelled the end for Atkinson. However, I’d thought that they had a 20% shareholding, rather than 30%.
fryske:
How would a Borderer have compared price-wise against rivals?
From memory they were on a par with ERF subject to the spec although with all the component supply difficulties which the manufacturers had to endure in the 70’s price was academic sometimes when you could only get your hands on one marque at the time you wanted a new chassis.Frustrating but that was the climate we had to operate in at the time! Cheers Dennis.
YTE 304N was new to Pandoro at Fleetwood, and worked well into the 1990s with D V Williams of Telford. NFD 921M was new to BOC Gases, and is now preserved by Scotlee Transport.
Hello Gentlemen, some interesting opinions coming through. I spent 6years as a youngster buying and selling Atkinsons, so I do have a love of the marque, but I do remember some of the faults! Some justifiably were beyond the factorys control, I expect a lot of us can remember the horrendous labour relations, disputes and component availability problems of the late 60s and 70s. In the office I still have two parts books for almost adjacent Borderer chassis 205 ■■■■■■■■ 10speed Fuller, although close sisters they were very different lorries in built specification! Gardners, well you could not get them, and even if I secured an order (with deposit), the chances of it ever being delivered were very slim, as senior management would “cherry pick” the best specs for their favourite, (not always most profitable in terms of return) fleets. I never worried, concentrating on available ■■■■■■■ and Rolls Royce powered examples, building up a healthy, and profitable client base. But Dennis, and Graham are quite right, Atkinson were past their sell buy date by the 70s. In hindsight it was lack of all product availability that allowed these designs to remain in front line service for so long, and drive line compatability between the “assemblers” allowed operators to mix their fleets between products, while retaining a modicum of standardisation and commonality of parts supply. Just after the merger I well remember a visit to Oldham to meet the new owners, six months previously I had sold to a very nice Steel Stockholder two Perkins V8 28ton Seddons. A more diabolical lorry has never been made, it had an inbuilt level of unreliability that could not be bettered, so when I was introduced to a certain Mr Redmond I admonished him in no uncertain way regarding the quality of Seddon workmanship, and my concern that they would ruin Atkinson. Oh the folly of youth, but I was right! Cheerio for now.
This tractor would be among some of last Borderers assembled at Walton-Le-Dale,it was one of two I snapped up in IIRC Sept 75.I sent them both to Jennings Coachworks to have a sleeper"box" fitted.This unit’s spec was 220 ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 610 and Kirkstall HR.I can’t recall if either of the units had power steering though,one of them did have I believe,but I wouldn’t be 100%.
Another great thread ,never been a fan of the big A but i do enjoy the insights into how they were produced and what went wrong and again the Leyland name crops up as the culprit of the demise of another great firm
ramone:
Another great thread ,never been a fan of the big A but i do enjoy the insights into how they were produced and what went wrong and again the Leyland name crops up as the culprit of the demise of another great firm
Hiya “ramone”,your right there mate you learn years afterwards about the “skullduggery” that Leyland got up to trying to muddy the pool for other manufacturers! IIRC they built up a large shareholding in Foden as well and did them no favours in the end.I’m not sure wether they had a finger in the pie at ERF’s,maybe not as Peter Foden was a very much a "hands on " Chairman unlike his cousin Bill Foden down the road, The Redmonds from Seddon’s have a lot to answer for as well with regard to what they did to Atki’s,I remember when me and my pal Malc Woodhouse Snr. attended the launch of the SA400 at Rylands,Warrington, we more-or-less told both Redmond snr. and Junior what we thought of their efforts to destroy Atki and they did not like it I can tell you!! Atkis may well have sunk into oblivion eventually but the Redmonds certainly accelerated the process,IMO!! Cheers Dennis.
If i could ad my pennyworth to the thread. My father had a very nice Atki Borderer reg no PUS 556M which we aquired second hand in the late 70s.It was new to a scottish operator so we believe but never did find out who. It had a ■■■■■■■ 220 in it and my dad loved it, even though it did’nt have power steering!!.
In 1980 dad got a brand new Foden S10 Fleetmaster, although it was nice to have a brand new lorry dad said he actually prefurred the old Atki. The new Foden was powered by a Gardner 6LXBC which only developed about 200 bhp which was low even back then. Could anyone shed any light on the origins of PUS 556M?, We also had an ex Hammonds of Sittingbourne Atkinson but i cant remember the number of that one.
Bewick:
This tractor would be among some of last Borderers assembled at Walton-Le-Dale,it was one of two I snapped up in IIRC Sept 75.I sent them both to Jennings Coachworks to have a sleeper"box" fitted.This unit’s spec was 220 ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 610 and Kirkstall HR.I can’t recall if either of the units had power steering though,one of them did have I believe,but I wouldn’t be 100%.
Eyup Dennis,did you try kipping in one of them theer boxes?
Happen they were just for dozing in while waiting for t’Daventry changeovers coming from “darn sarf” on a sunday?
Bewick:
This tractor would be among some of last Borderers assembled at Walton-Le-Dale,it was one of two I snapped up in IIRC Sept 75.I sent them both to Jennings Coachworks to have a sleeper"box" fitted.This unit’s spec was 220 ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 610 and Kirkstall HR.I can’t recall if either of the units had power steering though,one of them did have I believe,but I wouldn’t be 100%.
Eyup Dennis,did you try kipping in one of them theer boxes?
Happen they were just for dozing in while waiting for t’Daventry changeovers coming from “darn sarf” on a sunday?
Anon…
Aye Chris I don’t think they were so good if you suffered from nightmares,and sat bolt upright!! you’d be back fast asleep again in a flash and wake up with a terrible headache it’ morning!! but hey they were the only way to make the British motors more acceptable for the drivers in the mid 70’s-------Then I weakened and started buying the Swedes,the first 111’s only had let down bunks in the cabs as well but were in another world as far as driving them was concerned! Cheers Dennis.
Bewick:
This tractor would be among some of last Borderers assembled at Walton-Le-Dale,it was one of two I snapped up in IIRC Sept 75.I sent them both to Jennings Coachworks to have a sleeper"box" fitted.This unit’s spec was 220 ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ 610 and Kirkstall HR.I can’t recall if either of the units had power steering though,one of them did have I believe,but I wouldn’t be 100%.
Looking at the photo Dennis i would say that it had the Spanish power steering fitted,
by how high the steering wheel is on the column.
As others have said, this is turning out to be a really interesting thread!
A queation for Dennis, or indeed anybody else who drove or operated these motors: How much time & effort had to be given over to repairs / maintenance of the cabs? The reason for my question is that my Uncle now has two Mark-1 four-wheelers & both will require fairly extensive rebuilding in that department. Now clearly much of this has come about beacuse these lorries were stood outside for long periods, but did any of these problems arise when the vehicles were on the road?
I have heard it said that one reason the ‘export’ customers of these vehicles tended to adopted locally built (steel) cabs was that their domestice insects & termites could turn the ash frames into someting resembling net-curtains in a very short space of time!
