That’s a great shot of Croppers Sedon Dennis, Of course you all ready know We used to deliver paper there in the 80s, Mind you it was early doors in those days 5.00 am on a Monday A pain in the ■■■ to say the least, But the money was good, Regards Larry.
Evening all, “Oily”, you are a gem…at least in my exposition on Henry Meadows I got the basic facts ok!!(fear of how the "grey cells " have deterioated)!
The pictures cover most of the advertising blurb that I have, (thank goodness I do not have to discover how to work this “new” electronic gubbins to get them on here!!
The house in Copthorne Rd is still there, unlike the old works. And wheelnuts piece on the Frisky is really interesting…was it an age where ideas could be allowed to run…without the deadening attitude of, “it will not make profit”, that has, ((and does) kill much innovation!
Thanks oily, if only you could see the sad world that exists where the “Little Swan” once stood, No you would not…no one who has any “go” within their bones would wish to see such a depressing area!!!
I`m away to the Bollinger, (for in my present state I can do little else)
And this years Barley ios tremendous, (and some of you will be enjoying drinking it),…why when you wish to be doing something, …do the mechanical bits fail!!
Adieu mes braves.
Lawrence Dunbar:
That’s a great shot of Croppers Sedon Dennis, Of course you all ready know We used to deliver paper there in the 80s, Mind you it was early doors in those days 5.00 am on a Monday A pain in the ■■■ to say the least, But the money was good, Regards Larry.
Aye Larry,a great firm Croppers,I have always had a soft spot for them as I left school and went to work for them,on shifts,as a trainee papermaker,absolutely loved it but after I had a bad accident ,nearly losing my left arm underneath PM 1 I decided to persue my “preferred” choice of career in road transport.In the late '70’s I came within a “cats whisker” of taking over all Croppers transport(including their fleet) but internal “politics” within the Mill caused a last minute change of mind and it didn’t happen,you win some and lose some, but we took no harm over the following years as I hauled for a number of other great papermakers producing a lot more paper than Croppers.Cheers Dennis.
Well Dennis I must agree with you on the Cropper Front, We never had any hold ups tipping there, But as Ive said before they were a very close knit concern, & as you have said both you & I made good regardless anyway, So join me in drinking a nice select malt & toast the good old days Eh, Regards Larry.
Bewick:
This shot is what I believe was the first artic that James Cropper the Kendal Papermaker took delivery of in 1965,it had the Leyland 600 engine,not sure what gearbox and the Moss axle.IIRC it didn’t have power steering although all the subsequent sister units did have power steering.
Yes that’s the Moss axle. I always thought the Pennine Mark 2 cabbed Seddon range was the best to come out of Seddon’s factory. A good choice of drivelines and in the heavier models you could specify Gardner, AEC, or Leyland engines. I think we need a new thread on Seddons. They were like Marmite, love 'em or hate 'em.
Saviem:
…You can see William Lyons desire to utilise the Meadows/ Guy works to build a new range of compact V configuration diesel engines in conjunction with ■■■■■■■■ He would have halved the cost of production for Guy, and still retained Meadows connection with Scammell and Dodge, vastly reducing cost of production…but as happened so many times, our Trans Atlantic cousins were less than straight forward in their business dealings…twas ever the way!!..
Cheerio for now.
I thought the decision to back out of the ■■■■■■■ V collaboration was based on the fact that the engines were duds, and that Guy Motors had a lucky escape, given what happened to Krupp. Was there some other skulduggery involved, other than speculation that ■■■■■■■ knew they were selling a pup in the first place?
[zb]
anorak:Saviem:
…You can see William Lyons desire to utilise the Meadows/ Guy works to build a new range of compact V configuration diesel engines in conjunction with ■■■■■■■■ He would have halved the cost of production for Guy, and still retained Meadows connection with Scammell and Dodge, vastly reducing cost of production…but as happened so many times, our Trans Atlantic cousins were less than straight forward in their business dealings…twas ever the way!!..
Cheerio for now.I thought the decision to back out of the ■■■■■■■ V collaboration was based on the fact that the engines were duds, and that Guy Motors had a lucky escape, given what happened to Krupp. Was there some other skulduggery involved, other than speculation that ■■■■■■■ knew they were selling a pup in the first place?
Evening all, Anorak, I have a few documents, (letters, memorandums, building alteration drawings), that would seem to indicate that the new V series engines were to be built as a base platform for a joint British Motor Holdings/ ■■■■■■■ operation, with the eventual aim being the establishment of a jointly owned facility for the production of a series of engine types,(not all automotive, but marine, industrial, and high power rail units).
They would seem to indicate that there was some UK Political, (Governmental), influence upon ■■■■■■■ to invest in developing solus facilities located in Scotland, and the North East of England, rather than investing in a Midland, (an area of high employment at that time), based joint venture, which would do little to reduce the expanding unemployment statistics…
If we go back to the time that these designs were proposed, contemporary engineers would not have thought them “duds”, only us with the benefit of hindsight, (and some hard earned experience) would know them as such. Contemporary engine designers, both in Europe and the US, came up with similar capacities and configurations for he anticipated power requirements of the period…and almost universally the small capacity, high revolution V engines were sadly to prove “duds”.
Funny how ■■■■■■■ hung onto Meadows client Dodge, (but of course by then US Chrysler owned), but lost Scammell to Detroit for its big power option, (untill the advent of the 335 in line 6, an engine destined to become a European wide "retro fit " option in all sorts of lorries).
A very interesting field, the manipulation of private industry by Governments, to serve political expediency, and one that has had dramatic effect on National “key” industries, yet the media seems incapable, (or unwilling), to investigate or expose!
Cheerio for now.
[zb]
anorak:Saviem:
…You can see William Lyons desire to utilise the Meadows/ Guy works to build a new range of compact V configuration diesel engines in conjunction with ■■■■■■■■ He would have halved the cost of production for Guy, and still retained Meadows connection with Scammell and Dodge, vastly reducing cost of production…but as happened so many times, our Trans Atlantic cousins were less than straight forward in their business dealings…twas ever the way!!..
Cheerio for now.I thought the decision to back out of the ■■■■■■■ V collaboration was based on the fact that the engines were duds, and that Guy Motors had a lucky escape, given what happened to Krupp. Was there some other skulduggery involved, other than speculation that ■■■■■■■ knew they were selling a pup in the first place?
Wasn’t it the V6 engine that ■■■■■■■ were “stuffing” Guy up with at the time,now that was a real lemon of an engine,it probably ranks as one of the worst ever built,so how did ■■■■■■■ get it so wrong and end up damaging their hitherto excellent reputation at the time.Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
Wasn’t it the V6 engine that ■■■■■■■ were “stuffing” Guy up with at the time,now that was a real lemon of an engine,it probably ranks as one of the worst ever built,so how did ■■■■■■■ get it so wrong and end up damaging their hitherto excellent reputation at the time.Cheers Bewick.
On the ■■■■■■■ thread, I posted a link to an excerpt from a book about ■■■■■■■■ history. It says that the V engines were rushed into production, the project taking (IIRC) about 18 months from its start to pre-production engines in customer vehicles. They never got it properly right. As far as I can gather, Mercedes and Deutz were the only firms to make a reliable high-speed n/a V-configuration engine.
Well Dennis I agree with you on that score because the in line engines 250s plus were good, A pal of mine had a Dodge Tractor unit with a V 8 ■■■■■■■ in & it gave him a lot of grief to say the least, He reckoned that the radiator was too small as it used to run very hot, But he got rid of it in the end because the supplier didn’t agree with his assumptions.He is long retired now like myself but the last time I was talking to him The topic was about the Dodge that gave him many sleepless nights & the word ■■■■■■■ V 8 was cursed, , Regards Larry.
Lawrence Dunbar:
Well Dennis I agree with you on that score because the in line engines 250s plus were good, A pal of mine had a Dodge Tractor unit with a V 8 ■■■■■■■ in & it gave him a lot of grief to say the least, He reckoned that the radiator was too small as it used to run very hot, But he got rid of it in the end because the supplier didn’t agree with his assumptions.He is long retired now like myself but the last time I was talking to him The topic was about the Dodge that gave him many sleepless nights & the word ■■■■■■■ V 8 was cursed, , Regards Larry.
I might sound that I’ve “cut my nose off to spite my face” Larry regarding the ■■■■■■■ V6,but I’ve got to say that the D1000 that I ran for nearly 3 years gave me faultless service,the V8 ■■■■■■■ never missed a beat.Mind you,I was the only driver and treat it well,oil change every 2 weeks,filter every 4 weeks.I kept the injectors torqued properly and I never over revved the engine.I was aware that the V8 ■■■■■■■ in the Dodge wasn’t so successful,maybe as you say because of the small radiator,but honestly my D1000 was great gave me many thousands of reliable miles and it enabled me to aquire a second “A” licence as well as finance the second motor,a Mastiff and trailer.I only needed a working £500 O/D facility for 6 months to get the second motor up to speed and recover my initial investment 
Happy days,Cheers Dennis.
Bewick:
Lawrence Dunbar:
Well Dennis I agree with you on that score because the in line engines 250s plus were good, A pal of mine had a Dodge Tractor unit with a V 8 ■■■■■■■ in & it gave him a lot of grief to say the least, He reckoned that the radiator was too small as it used to run very hot, But he got rid of it in the end because the supplier didn’t agree with his assumptions.He is long retired now like myself but the last time I was talking to him The topic was about the Dodge that gave him many sleepless nights & the word ■■■■■■■ V 8 was cursed, , Regards Larry.I might sound that I’ve “cut my nose off to spite my face” Larry regarding the ■■■■■■■ V6,but I’ve got to say that the D1000 that I ran for nearly 3 years gave me faultless service,the V8 ■■■■■■■ never missed a beat.Mind you,I was the only driver and treat it well,oil change every 2 weeks,filter every 4 weeks.I kept the injectors torqued properly and I never over revved the engine.I was aware that the V8 ■■■■■■■ in the Dodge wasn’t so successful,maybe as you say because of the small radiator,but honestly my D1000 was great gave me many thousands of reliable miles and it enabled me to aquire a second “A” licence as well as finance the second motor,a Mastiff and trailer.I only needed a working £500 O/D facility for 6 months to get the second motor up to speed and recover my initial investment
Aye as you say Dennis happy days Eh When we could put things right ourselves, No diagnostic crap like there is to-day,Regards Larry.
Saviem:
Evening all, Anorak, I have a few documents, (letters, memorandums, building alteration drawings), that would seem to indicate that the new V series engines were to be built as a base platform for a joint British Motor Holdings/ ■■■■■■■ operation, with the eventual aim being the establishment of a jointly owned facility for the production of a series of engine types,(not all automotive, but marine, industrial, and high power rail units).They would seem to indicate that there was some UK Political, (Governmental), influence upon ■■■■■■■ to invest in developing solus facilities located in Scotland, and the North East of England, rather than investing in a Midland, (an area of high employment at that time), based joint venture, which would do little to reduce the expanding unemployment statistics…
If we go back to the time that these designs were proposed, contemporary engineers would not have thought them “duds”, only us with the benefit of hindsight, (and some hard earned experience) would know them as such. Contemporary engine designers, both in Europe and the US, came up with similar capacities and configurations for he anticipated power requirements of the period…and almost universally the small capacity, high revolution V engines were sadly to prove “duds”.
Funny how ■■■■■■■ hung onto Meadows client Dodge, (but of course by then US Chrysler owned), but lost Scammell to Detroit for its big power option, (untill the advent of the 335 in line 6, an engine destined to become a European wide "retro fit " option in all sorts of lorries).
A very interesting field, the manipulation of private industry by Governments, to serve political expediency, and one that has had dramatic effect on National “key” industries, yet the media seems incapable, (or unwilling), to investigate or expose!
Cheerio for now.
I have found the link to the ■■■■■■■ book (again!):
books.google.co.uk/books?id=JeS- … ne&f=false
This screen-grab from it shows that there was plenty of evidence that the V engines were trouble, as far back as 1963:
Did the Government interference cause or assist the creation of ■■■■■■■■ factory at Shotts?
Bonjour Saviem, hope your knee joint appreciates the injection of your daily ‘Bolly’, my new stainless steel hip joint seems to be running in OK, but, I have WD40 on hand just in case. Getting back to the plot, regarding Meadows engines. I recall that after leaving Gardner for ■■■■■■■■ in 1966, one of the technical ‘Gurus’ at ■■■■■■■ was a chap by the name of Stan Hartshorne. His background was as an engine designer for Henry Meadows. I must admit, that in our free time, we spent most of our time discussing how Hugh Gardner got his good BSFC figures rather than what Stan was up to at Meadows. Reading the previous input here I now wonder if Stan came on board ■■■■■■■ as an intermediary to smooth the way forward between Guy/Meadows/ ■■■■■■■ and uncle Tom Cobbley (Politicians!!!). On the subject of ■■■■■■■ Vee engines you need to understand that they produced V12’s before the onset of the Val/Vale and Vim/Vine ranges. The V12’s were based on two 6 cylinder NT’s in a vee configuration. From what I can remember they were very sound designs but with turbo’s which would not always stay in one piece. “Duck” was the operative word when approaching a T590 Turbo at full chat.
When I joined in 1966, my remit was to feed info back, from the field, on how the small vee engines were performing in service. The Dodge units were undergoing a campaign change to their injector trains, in order to reduce the onset of black smoke and poor fuel consumption. The Ford units, which came onto the market in 1967, were a later ‘phase’ engine with all known problem areas addressed. The bigger V6 Vim engines, built by Krupp, for Guy and Daimler were actually better performers than their smaller brothers, but, the Daimler Roadliner was not, in retrospect, a good installation and ■■■■■■■ incurred the wrath of the bus industry for many years to come. The original design brief, to reduce the size of the units for a given horsepower, was a positive step forward, the execution of that goal was not, unfortunately met, unlike the older engine designs. ( Apologies for going off at a tangent)
shugg:
Meadows engines were fitted in Guy trucks ,is there anyone out there with any comments , experience etc of these engines . ?
didn’t they put a 8 pot 240 gardner in guys 
Oh for goodness sake, don’t wake him up again!!!
5Valve:
Bonjour Saviem, hope your knee joint appreciates the injection of your daily ‘Bolly’, my new stainless steel hip joint seems to be running in OK, but, I have WD40 on hand just in case. Getting back to the plot, regarding Meadows engines. I recall that after leaving Gardner for ■■■■■■■■ in 1966, one of the technical ‘Gurus’ at ■■■■■■■ was a chap by the name of Stan Hartshorne. His background was as an engine designer for Henry Meadows. I must admit, that in our free time, we spent most of our time discussing how Hugh Gardner got his good BSFC figures rather than what Stan was up to at Meadows. Reading the previous input here I now wonder if Stan came on board ■■■■■■■ as an intermediary to smooth the way forward between Guy/Meadows/ ■■■■■■■ and uncle Tom Cobbley (Politicians!!!). On the subject of ■■■■■■■ Vee engines you need to understand that they produced V12’s before the onset of the Val/Vale and Vim/Vine ranges. The V12’s were based on two 6 cylinder NT’s in a vee configuration. From what I can remember they were very sound designs but with turbo’s which would not always stay in one piece. “Duck” was the operative word when approaching a T590 Turbo at full chat.
When I joined in 1966, my remit was to feed info back, from the field, on how the small vee engines were performing in service. The Dodge units were undergoing a campaign change to their injector trains, in order to reduce the onset of black smoke and poor fuel consumption. The Ford units, which came onto the market in 1967, were a later ‘phase’ engine with all known problem areas addressed. The bigger V6 Vim engines, built by Krupp, for Guy and Daimler were actually better performers than their smaller brothers, but, the Daimler Roadliner was not, in retrospect, a good installation and ■■■■■■■ incurred the wrath of the bus industry for many years to come. The original design brief, to reduce the size of the units for a given horsepower, was a positive step forward, the execution of that goal was not, unfortunately met, unlike the older engine designs. ( Apologies for going off at a tangent)
Hi 5Valve. What were your conclusions, regarding Gardner’s exceptional BSFC figures? I have always considered this aspect of the Gardner design to be its crowning glory. It was a decade or more ahead of the competition, and it’s not often you can say that about a British motor manufacturer- any of them, at any point in history.
Regarding the VIM/VINE, the book refers to a V12 version of that family of engines, with the wonderful name VOOM. Did you have any experience of these?