Back when I worked for Blake’s, we did this quite a lot. 2 am start and leave the depot two hours later with five drops around London; you were lucky to get to Oxford services by 4pm, so phone the yard. “Sit there driver and we’ll send someone out for you.” They might get there by 6 pm and then it’s at least another hour back to the yard.
That’s 16 hours start to finish, and sometimes more. They used to pay us for the hours too. In the end the LA decided that they were taking the Michael and the company, along with a load of drivers were fined.
There was a famous case with some coach drivers around the same time but I can’t find a link.
Found this on government website. …GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU/ AETR rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits…
So my interpretation of that is that if it’s a mixed days driving Eu hours supercedes everything so I CANNOT drive another COMPANY vehicle after 10 hours??
shullbit:
Found this on government website. …GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU/ AETR rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits…
So my interpretation of that is that if it’s a mixed days driving Eu hours supercedes everything so I CANNOT drive another COMPANY vehicle after 10 hours??
This is my…
Understanding of the rules.
If you drive a company vehicle that doesn’t have a recording device, don’t you have to make a manual entry to show those times? If that’s the case, then after ten hours driven in an artic, anything driven at all in a company car or van would take you over the top.
Right?
When ever I’ve run out of time, a van with two drivers has always turned up (many different firms over the years). One to drive the lorry and one to drive me back.
shullbit:
Found this on government website. …GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU/ AETR rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits…
So my interpretation of that is that if it’s a mixed days driving Eu hours supercedes everything so I CANNOT drive another COMPANY vehicle after 10 hours??
What?
If you are on the .gov site that`s a good start. gov.uk/drivers-hours/eu-rules
Are you saying you work under UK Domestic rules?
Unless exempted you are under EU rules.
Forget everything else. Unless exempted you work to one rule book, the EU one.
Here is a quote:
“EU rules
Driving hours
The main EU rules on driving hours are that you must not drive more than:
9 hours in a day - this can be extended to 10 hours twice a week
56 hours in a week
90 hours in any 2 consecutive weeks
All driving you do under EU rules must be recorded on a tachograph.”
When the site refers to “driving hours” it is referring to driving a LGV with a tachograph fitted.*
A car or light van has no tachograph fitted, so driving that is not “driving” as referred to in the rules.
It is duty time, and certainly not break or rest time, if relevant to work. It is rest if travelling to/fro home and NORMAL place of work, as we`ve already said.
This .gov site is very good, but doesnt cross all the ts and dot all the is, it is the quick guide only. The full rules are available online but are so densely written that for most use are unwieldy.
It doesnt go into long explanations of what driving is and isnt.
.
.
*(It is not strictly logic to take that from the above, I know, but the above is from the quick guide.)
.
“Company vehicle” isnt mentioned anywhere I can see. If so could an owner/driver be prosecuted for driving home from yard in his "company car" when an employee couldnt?
As long as it’s in your 15hrs duty time then this is fine.
Too many thicko drivers think, time in the van isn’t working time.
For example Manchester to Paris 10hrs driving time. Legal right!
so can I get picked up in a van in Paris and taken back to Manchester to repeat daily.?
As time in van doesn’t count as other work, according to many on this forum.
FFS give me strength, no wonder bosses get away paying £9.00 pH
Mmmmm … lets say it’s late Friday afternoon your stuck in traffic there’s been seriously bad traffic accident, and because of it you’ve maxed out your WTD & driving hours and pulled over, it’s your last shift of the week, or you’re going on holiday the next day. You also know that there are 3 of you from your yard in the same situation. The boss say he’ll get someone to pick you up, and sends out a tractor unit, when it arrives he’s driving, and there’s 1 shunter sat in the passenger seat and 2 sat on the bunk. The plan is to drop a shunter off by you, and crack on to the next guy dropping off a shunter each time.
The moral dilemma is do you say nowt, sit in the passenger seat, exceed you legal hours and crack on home with the shunter driving, pack your suitcase and have a cold beer ready for the next days journey to the airport, or do you say no thanks I’ll have a unplanned night out?
*coughs
Im not saying this had happened to me recently …
But the curry tasted oh so much better washed down with a cold beer.
shullbit:
Found this on government website. …GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU/ AETR rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits…
So my interpretation of that is that if it’s a mixed days driving Eu hours supercedes everything so I CANNOT drive another COMPANY vehicle after 10 hours??
This is my…
Understanding of the rules.
If you drive a company vehicle that doesn’t have a recording device, don’t you have to make a manual entry to show those times? If that’s the case, then after ten hours driven in an artic, anything driven at all in a company car or van would take you over the top.
Right?
When ever I’ve run out of time, a van with two drivers has always turned up (many different firms over the years). One to drive the lorry and one to drive me back.
This seems to be the most common sense answer to me. There seems to be a lot of confusion over this rule looking at the different opinions of the posters, but unless i can find a black and white answer i wont know the FACT that i need to win the argument.
For the avoidance of doubt I HAVE DRIVEN 10 HOURS EU RULES…I WOULD BE DRIVING THE NON TACHO COMPANY VEHICLE BACK TO BASE…I HAVE ENOUGH WORKING TIME LEFT TO GET BACK TO BASE.
I was told that this was illegal a few years ago on a CPC course by a very knowlegable and respected trainer…not like some of the know it alls of todays training industry but i need the facts.
If i was to get sacked for refusing to do this, I need to know that I would have a good case for wrongful dismissal, and obviously, if it is not illegal I wouldnt have a case.
peirre:
Mmmmm … lets say it’s late Friday afternoon
…
peirre:
you’re going on holiday the next day.
…maybe…but… from the OP
shullbit:
I can see this being an issue on the weeks to come
If they are expecting this to happen?
Seems to be summat rather different than the exceptional circumstances you outline.
Nothing to do with exeptional circumstances…WHAT IS THE LAW…minimum wage is £8,21 an hour…we all know that is the law. if you get less its illegal simple you dont work for less…black and white, so whats the law regarding this
I doubt he’d get anything resembling a definitive answer from DVSA. It would be something along the lines of “General guidance is contained in our GV262 publication (content also available online via our website). Drivers are advised that the full legal position can only be ascertained by reference to the relevant legislation - full details listed in GV262 as above.”
I doubt he’d get anything resembling a definitive answer from DVSA. It would be something along the lines of “General guidance is contained in our GV262 publication (content also available online via our website). Drivers are advised that the full legal position can only be ascertained by reference to the relevant legislation - full details listed in GV262 as above.”
I daresay you`re correct.
But an email will at at least show an attempt to try to be law abiding, if the the proverbial starts flying around.
And if we never ask a question we can 100% guarantee never getting a sensible answer.
shullbit:
Found this on government website. …GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU/ AETR rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits…
So my interpretation of that is that if it’s a mixed days driving Eu hours supercedes everything so I CANNOT drive another COMPANY vehicle after 10 hours??
That’s not strictly correct, if you work in-scope of UK domestic regulations and the EU regulations on the same day you’re required to comply with both sets of regulations, therefore neither UK domestic regulations nor EU regulations take precedence.
shullbit:
For the avoidance of doubt I HAVE DRIVEN 10 HOURS EU RULES…I WOULD BE DRIVING THE NON TACHO COMPANY VEHICLE BACK TO BASE…I HAVE ENOUGH WORKING TIME LEFT TO GET BACK TO BASE.
I was told that this was illegal a few years ago on a CPC course by a very knowlegable and respected trainer…not like some of the know it alls of todays training industry but i need the facts.
What you was told is not strictly correct.
If you’re in-scope of EU regulations and you run out of driving time you can still drive a company vehicle that does not fall in-scope of EU regulations or UK domestic regulations i.e. a none goods vehicle (company car).
I’m not sure whether or not you could legally drive a small company van, though I suspect you couldn’t, well not 100% legally anyway.
I say I’m not sure because if you’ve ever tried reading and correctly understanding the UK domestic regulations you will know that it’s not as simple as it sounds, the governments idea of plain English is very different to a normal persons idea of plain English, the daily driving and working time is simple enough but when you look at what constitutes an in-scope goods vehicle or the exemptions it can get a bit mind boggling
If only there were some kind of industry wide course where questions like this could be asked and everyone would know the exact answer.
I bet if there was one though, lots of drivers would ■■■-■■■ it as a waste of time…
The-Snowman:
If only there were some kind of industry wide course where questions like this could be asked and everyone would know the exact answer.
I bet if there was one though, lots of drivers would ■■■-■■■ it as a waste of time…
Just think what an opportunity itd be if a country was asked to do summat worthwhile regarding professional training. And decided to do that, instead of opting for a cheapn`nasty box ticking exercise.
10 or so years ago I spent a summer double manning a double deck coach with trailer from Woodall Services to Italy.I used to drive my car to the service area and collect it on my return.A DVSA woman at Thurrock gave me a hard time over this and we agreed we’d see each other in court.Fortunately it never happened.
