came onto the M4 today westbound soon as I got on there a speed limit saying 60 was showing then it went down to 40 mph,soon as I went over J5 it said END,there was absolutely nothing there,no jams,no traffic at all and was running smoothly,i have posted about this before and one reply was that the signs are automatic with sensors that can detect the build up of traffic,but there was nothing,then further up at J12 another speed reduction to 50 this went on for about 5 miles with nothing showing,eventually it turned out to be the other side and the highways agency brought the traffic to a standstill to sort out debris,but if we had done what the sign says it would have caused a huge tailback on our side for nothing,i do wish H/A would get it sorted
i do wish H/A would get it sorted
NOW you are being silly 
SWEDISH BLUE:
i do wish H/A would get it sortedNOW you are being silly
have to agree with you
SWEDISH BLUE:
i do wish H/A would get it sortedNOW you are being silly
You’re not paid to think 
I would be flat broke if I was paid to think Tango.
eagerbeaver:
I would be flat broke if I was paid to think Tango.
Lol and me 
This sort of thing does happen regularly because;…
If the message sign on the gantry/cantilever says anything to do with “QUEUE” it has been set automatically by sensors in the c/way called MIDAS. (Motorway Incident Detection & Signalling - please go and google it) so you only need one of those ghost queues to start, probably caused by any number of things slowing traffic down temporarily, could be simple things like an animal running across the road. MIDAS checks each pad approx every 4 minutes, there needs to have been a reasonable number of vehicles having crossed it at a higher speed than is posted for it to reset itself. It will also only set speeds down to 40’s (Unless other factors have been changed due to lowered speed limits in the area)
The other instance where speeds are set and nothing is there, can be due to many things again, but mostly because the location have been given incorrectly, or the incident has cleared somehow.
A couple of examples; We get a call for debris in the road, we HAVE to set signals, if we can see it from CCTV, we will set speeds and DEBRIS, otherwise it’s 50’s and “INCIDENT” that debris can get flicked to the h-s / central res/ or not even be in that location at all, we have no means of knowing until the location is checked.
This is the same for most incidents, we HAVE to set signals in the location given, these cannot be changed unless the area has been checked and the incident either confirmed (when signals may alter to closures etc) or cleared if no traced. As an example of this, we were given details of an RTC yesterday, saying between J2 - J3, M60 clockwise, the information came from one of the other emergency services, who’d got it via 999, this was for an overturned vehicle with injuries, we set signals for 50’s INCIDENT between just prior J1 - J2 on the clockwise M60. We checked the cctv in the area but couldn’t see anything (there are blind spots) meanwhile there’s EVERY emergency service making for that location, we phoned the emergency service that had taken the original 999 call to get the informants tel number, they said they’d also got a similar sounding job at J21 of the M60, checking the cctv there we found the overturned vehicle off the c/way so the emergency services all had to be redirected, BUT we still had to check the original location given to make sure that it wasn’t a coincidence before we could clear the first lot of signals.
So, in a nutshell, we HAVE to set signals if something is reported that could be in the running lanes. We can only set to the information given (until confirmed by either CCTV or HATO/Police patrol) Initial signals are always 50’s INCIDENT / Animals / Pedestrians. This means that you could come across a full on multiple RTC blocking the whole motorway, or nothing at all. we can’t alter the signals one way or the other until either the incident is confirmed or no traced.
So as professional drivers, if you see anything please call it in (on your hands free, unless you stop to assist) and use the markerpost numbers, even if you think that someone else has already called it in, you never know if they’ve got it right, and we will be able to reduce the number of signals set, as often they are J# to J#.
tango boy:
SWEDISH BLUE:
i do wish they would get it sortedNOW you are being silly
You’re not paid to think
[/quote]^^^^ This ^^^^^^
.
.
ps,
have you signed up for your membership magazine yet ?
subscribeme.to/he-naturistI know how you guys like to be feral and fancy free
The real Biffo:
This sort of thing does happen regularly because;…If the message sign on the gantry/cantilever says anything to do with “QUEUE” it has been set automatically by sensors in the c/way called MIDAS. (Motorway Incident Detection & Signalling - please go and google it) so you only need one of those ghost queues to start, probably caused by any number of things slowing traffic down temporarily, could be simple things like an animal running across the road. MIDAS checks each pad approx every 4 minutes, there needs to have been a reasonable number of vehicles having crossed it at a higher speed than is posted for it to reset itself. It will also only set speeds down to 40’s (Unless other factors have been changed due to lowered speed limits in the area)
The other instance where speeds are set and nothing is there, can be due to many things again, but mostly because the location have been given incorrectly, or the incident has cleared somehow.
A couple of examples; We get a call for debris in the road, we HAVE to set signals, if we can see it from CCTV, we will set speeds and DEBRIS, otherwise it’s 50’s and “INCIDENT” that debris can get flicked to the h-s / central res/ or not even be in that location at all, we have no means of knowing until the location is checked.
This is the same for most incidents, we HAVE to set signals in the location given, these cannot be changed unless the area has been checked and the incident either confirmed (when signals may alter to closures etc) or cleared if no traced. As an example of this, we were given details of an RTC yesterday, saying between J2 - J3, M60 clockwise, the information came from one of the other emergency services, who’d got it via 999, this was for an overturned vehicle with injuries, we set signals for 50’s INCIDENT between just prior J1 - J2 on the clockwise M60. We checked the cctv in the area but couldn’t see anything (there are blind spots) meanwhile there’s EVERY emergency service making for that location, we phoned the emergency service that had taken the original 999 call to get the informants tel number, they said they’d also got a similar sounding job at J21 of the M60, checking the cctv there we found the overturned vehicle off the c/way so the emergency services all had to be redirected, BUT we still had to check the original location given to make sure that it wasn’t a coincidence before we could clear the first lot of signals.
So, in a nutshell, we HAVE to set signals if something is reported that could be in the running lanes. We can only set to the information given (until confirmed by either CCTV or HATO/Police patrol) Initial signals are always 50’s INCIDENT / Animals / Pedestrians. This means that you could come across a full on multiple RTC blocking the whole motorway, or nothing at all. we can’t alter the signals one way or the other until either the incident is confirmed or no traced.
So as professional drivers, if you see anything please call it in (on your hands free, unless you stop to assist) and use the markerpost numbers, even if you think that someone else has already called it in, you never know if they’ve got it right, and we will be able to reduce the number of signals set, as often they are J# to J#.
appreciate the explanation,thanks
truckman020:
appreciate the explanation,thanks
Me as well Well explained.
Could you answer this please? A1M sb just below Wetherby there are regular signs saying animals/pedestrians in road but never anything. This is a regular occurrence and wonder if it’s just a ruse to slow people down!
dri-diddly-iver:
truckman020:
appreciate the explanation,thanksMe as well
Could you answer this please? A1M sb just below Wetherby there are regular signs saying animals/pedestrians in road but never anything. This is a regular occurrence and wonder if it’s just a ruse to slow people down!
Nothing is put on as a ruse to slow people down, although we do wonder at times if someone is trying to wind us up, as often we get called to similar jobs at the extremes of the network just before shift change over, so the shift that was just about landing back to finish, gets turned around to go attend somewhere at the back-of-beyond, making it at least another 90 mins before they’ll get back to their outstation to clock off, the majority of these are no-traced as well.
As I said before, the majority of jobs are signed as “INCIDENT” until either confirmed by cctv, or a patrol,then the message will change to whatever is relevant, but certain ones are signed for what they’re reported as even though they’re not confirmed, ie. “ONCOMING VEHICLE” “PEDESTRIANS” ANIMALS"
We had a farmer that would let his dogs out regularly each morning, and they’d come to play along the H/S, no-one ever got near to them, and it only stopped after the police went and had a not too quiet word with the farmer.
Another one that is more regular than you’d expect, are swans landing on the wet road after a good rainstorm, they think it’s a river. This often damages their feet/legs and a HATO has to retrieve it and take it to either a vet or swan sanctuary, there is the odd time they can actually fly off. before we get there.
Pedestrians, Do you remember the incident with the 2 Swedish women on the M6? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-bIWm08eJc that was shown on TV at around 8pm, that nightshift from 10pm until 6am, just in our region, we had 16 pedestrian incidents ranging from groups of drunks walking home, to youths cycling down lane 3 at 2am in the morning without any lights (or brains!)
Getting back to locations, we had a very serious job tonight (it’s still ongoing) the incident was J11 - J10, ambo and fire had it as J10 - J9, as luck had it we called them to pass more info as our guys got there first, so the location was corrected, but just consider how much delay that could have caused the emergency crews getting there.
Stay lucky out there folks.
Crack on Drive.
The real Biffo:
We had a farmer that would let his dogs out regularly each morning, and they’d come to play along the H/S, no-one ever got near to them, and it only stopped after the police went and had a not too quiet word with the farmer
This is/was regular same dogs, same animals, used to always be Dogs near J17 M16, Chickens at 17 M6, Regularly sheep 9-8 M56 because car drivers see the sheep on the embankment but not the fence in the ditch.
The real Biffo:
Getting back to locations, we had a very serious job tonight (it’s still ongoing) the incident was J11 - J10, ambo and fire had it as J10 - J9, as luck had it we called them to pass more info as our guys got there first, so the location was corrected, but just consider how much delay that could have caused the emergency crews getting there.
Stay lucky out there folks.
Few years ago we had the world and his wife looking in the same location for someone who saw a car go off road jnc 11 area, Fire, Ambo, Police, Hato going round in circles 11-10, 12-11, 14-12, 10-9,
The vehicle was found by chance upside down behind a sign with injured people trapped JNC 15-14 How the chuff do people ringing in get it so wrong
I would guess that the majority of drivers on motorways know where they’re going, as in which junction they want off, but take very little notice of where/what they are passing.
It’s ok if you’re doing the same roads regularly but when in a new location it can take a while to get your bearings.
These speed limits they’re setting at night are not done right at all and actually invite more collisions IMO.
Take the M1 around Luton last week. I thin it was J10 where the exit was closed. Just the exit, all 4 lanes of the M1 were open. A few mile back we were slowed down to 50 and told there were 2 lanes closed. Then as we got closer it went down to 40 with the inside lane being 30. Even though all 4 lanes were open and the road was pretty empty. The 2 red Xs on the inside lanes had now gone.
The problem here is the differences of opinion between drivers. I don’t want to risk tickets or drive under red Xs so it was 3rd lane at 40mph for me. Other drivers will only slow down if their path ahead is blocked so they were flying past me at almost double my speed, on both sides.
Tell me how this is safe ?
Terry T:
These speed limits they’re setting at night are not done right at all and actually invite more collisions IMO.Take the M1 around Luton last week. I thin it was J10 where the exit was closed. Just the exit, all 4 lanes of the M1 were open. A few mile back we were slowed down to 50 and told there were 2 lanes closed. Then as we got closer it went down to 40 with the inside lane being 30. Even though all 4 lanes were open and the road was pretty empty. The 2 red Xs on the inside lanes had now gone.
The problem here is the differences of opinion between drivers. I don’t want to risk tickets or drive under red Xs so it was 3rd lane at 40mph for me. Other drivers will only slow down if their path ahead is blocked so they were flying past me at almost double my speed, on both sides.
Tell me how this is safe ?
It was almost the same on the M25 the other week.
Clockwise north side between J23 A1 to J27 M11.
3 nights the Matrix signs displayed that lanes 1,2,3 were shut, marked with the Red X, and the speed was reduced to 60 then 50 then 40.
As above some drivers slowed down and some didn’t.
Chaos ensued. Lorries doing 56 mph in lane 1 and lorries doing 40 mph in lane 3.
At no point were any lanes closed and no Roadworks were taking place.
Drivers need to have confidence in the Matrix Signs so they can adjust to the instructions.
If those instructions are false then drivers all do their own thing.
Making a free flowing stretch of Motorway into a free for all.
Not the safest environment to drive in.
I have to side with the H/A on this, whatever the reason is for a matrix sign speed change it should always be obeyed, yes the hazard may have gone or the signs innacurate due to human error, but we are paid to drive and set an example so if it says 40mph I will ease of to 40 as I would rather look silly than be faced with the fallout from breaking the set speed limit and then finding myself causing a danger to other road users.
I have full confidence in them, but will allow for the fact they are only human and Mr ■■■■-up may have his best shoes on at any particular moment.
By ‘ease off’ I don’t mean slam the anchors on in panic but a little bit of retardation to reach the posted speed as safely as possible.
Think we had a member once from the H/A called ‘Big Jase’ or BJ for short who is no longer allowed to post on here due to dropping a right clanger and admitting to driving faster than the posted speed limit.
I did this run up the M1 4 nights on the trot and the junction was closed every night. I assume the 2 inside lanes were closed while the junction was coned off. Fair enough. But if they’ve got the time to remove the cones from lanes 1 and 2 they got the time to make a quick call and reopen those lanes once the cones are gone. I hit it at different times every night, some well before midnight and once after and it was the same every time.
One thing I did notice. No matter how fast anyone came past me none of the cameras flashed.
I totally agree with all that everyone has said about signals for roadworks, it’s not ideal how they’re done but at the moment it’s what we have, let me explain if I can, but I can only speak about our own area.
Our area consists of 14 motorways in the NW, some long bits (M6, M56, M62, M60 etc) some short bits (a627m, M602, M57, M58 etc)
We normally have during the week 10 operators on the shift. 1 is the Team manager, who’s busy will all the admin & crap that is required to do, 1 is the deputy TM, who checks all the logs prior to closing them to make sure everything is done, 2 people are working the radio channel deploying patrols /updating logs from the info passed by them, 2 people are attached as Incident coordinators, they make phone calls for anything relevant to live jobs, set/change/clear signals on the instructions of patrols, inform the Nation Traffic Information Centre about incidents that are likely to / or are affecting the live c/way, run separate channels for rolling blocks / major incidents.That leaves 4 operators to take/make phone calls. These can be from various sources, emergency services, gen public, SOS boxes, recovery companies, roadworks camera rooms. They also set any signals for jobs that come from any of these calls as they pass the log to the despatchers for patrols to be sent etc.
The 4 operators also have to take on the roadworks calls, they take all the information required to set it up, confirm that it doesn’t clash with any others, then they have to; kill all the MIDAS pads throughout the roadworks so the “queues” can’t automatically set because there are cones/contractors vehicles on them, they then have to change all the HDS on every signal throughout the roadworks (Highest Displayable Speed - normally 60 mph) to 10 mph less than any temp speed limit, or 50mph if no temp speed limit. The foreman (normally called the TSO) of the roadworks crew says they’re ready for the signals, then the signals will be set for whatever lane closure is required.
this is the problem bit
The signals will put lane closures on, and will also automatically set secondary speeds on the signals prior, the more restrictive the lane closures are, the more signals set with a reducing speed setting (The system will only allow a max on 20 mph drops in speed)
Now the TSO sees the signals, and starts to put out the hard signage (ie the 1 mile, 800yds, 600yds, 400yds,200yds countdowns) once these are out, they will actually start to close lanes etc.
Meanwhile, back in the control room, if this is a sliproad closure, or a full c/way closure, the operator has to make 5 phone calls to inform various services that need to know, so they can plan around the closure. fire / ambo / TM of patrols in that area / NTIC (so it goes onto traffic England website- then the media work from this) and also click the log across to the police.
All this can take 15 mins to do. We often get anywhere between 45 - 60 roadworks jobs between 8pm - 10 pm, you don’t have time to breath! All this with 4 operators (usually 1 of the I/C’s will help if the radio is calm (never use the ‘Q’ word!) & often the deputy TM, but you get my drift about the workload) still taking the ‘normal’ calls as well.
So, the roadworks finally are on, the TSO then calls in this information, and the signals are turned off as full hard signage & traffic management are out.
When he’s ready to remove them, normally in the early hours of the morning, he then calls up for the signals to be reset, which they are. He clears all the cones etc, so no lanes are actually closed, then will go around to clear the hard signage, once that’s done only then will he call in to have the signals etc cleared and everything put back to normal, so you often get the time between the cones being off and him calling for the signals to be cleared with lanes showing closed, but the closure has been lifted
Yes it could certainly be better, ideas have been put forward, but there are drawbacks, so is still under review.
Watch yourselves guys, because if the signals show a red x, don’t go through it, even if the closures are in, the police WILL book you for it if they see you.
Speeds, up in our area, we don’t have mandatory speeds on matrix (yet!) Although certain stretches of roadworks do have mandatory speed limits.
The longest with a 50mph mandatory speed limit is approx 9 miles long (M60 - M62 for smart motorways) at 70 mph it would take 7.7mins, at 50 mph it will take 10.8mins, hardly worth getting booked for.
Dipper_Dave:
Think we had a member once from the H/A called ‘Big Jase’ or BJ for short who is no longer allowed to post on here due to dropping a right clanger and admitting to driving faster than the posted speed limit.
No longer allowed to post? Who said that? I asked to be removed but they wouldn’t allow me to be stating it would mess up posts.
I didn’t drop a clanger either, we ARE allowed to exceed the posted speed limit if its ADVISORY like you all are. Kinda pointless me trying to get to a job doing advisory 40’s being over taken by trucks doing 56 ignoring the signs don’t you think? Remember, I know what is in the road ahead AND why the signs are on, you don’t. Mandatory in a Red ring I always obey. I’m sure speedy guy or Biffo will post the guidance on exceeding advisory speed limits, if you don’t know our rules, don’t try and criticise me for doing what I am allowed to do.