MAKING REGS SIMPLE - a bad idea

[rog]

Oh dear - I was hoping to keep this in the PDF to accumilate ideas from the majority who seem to frequent that forum - I know it’s about the regs but was looking for ideas to make them simpler - Oh well…

So as not to hi-jack another thread HERE I have started a new post.

The real Biffo:
Maybe ROG could help you out here? what I said was we were taught in the 70’s, no doubt things have changed dramatically since then.
I agree, they have made it over complicated by the looks of things.

I’m no expert on tacho regs & WTD - ask tachograph or coffeeholic

but - is this type of thing what you mean - the prob is that there is no reference to POA & WTD

Rules from 11 April 2007
Daily Driving
9 hours. Can be extended to 10 hours twice a week.
Weekly Driving
A weekly driving time limit of 56 hours
or -
56 hrs max
Fortnightly driving
Maximum 90 hours in any two consecutive weeks.
Breaks from driving
After four and a half hours driving, a driver must take a break of at least 45 minutes. The break is a period during which the driver may not perform other work and is exclusively used for recuperation. This break may be split into smaller periods and distributed throughout the 41/2 hour. In this case, the first period must be at lest 15 minutes, and the second period must be at least 30 minutes.
Could be simply put -
45 min break after 4 1/2 hrs total driving
Can be 15 mins 1st then 30 mins 2nd
Daily rest
11 hours in the 24 hour period commencing at the end of the last daily or weekly rest period. This may be reduced to 9 hours no more than three times between any two weekly rest periods. There is no compensation required.
Where a driver chooses to take daily rest periods away from base, they may be taken in a vehicle provided that there are suitable sleeping facilities for each driver and the vehicle is stationary
Split Daily rest
The 12 hour rest period can be taken in two periods. The first period must be at least 3 hours, and the second at least 9 hours.
Weekly Rest
Within six 24 hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period, a driver will extend a daily rest period into either; a regular weekly rest period of at least 45 hours, or a reduced weekly rest period of less than 45 hours but at least 24 hours.
In any two consecutive weeks, a driver shall take at least two regular weekly rest periods, or one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly rest period of at least 24 hours. However, the reduction shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest taken en bloc before the end of the third week following the week in question.

PS - sorry OP, bit off topic

arronls:

ROG:

The real Biffo:
Maybe ROG could help you out here? what I said was we were taught in the 70’s, no doubt things have changed dramatically since then.
I agree, they have made it over complicated by the looks of things.

I’m no expert on tacho regs & WTD - ask tachograph or coffeeholic

but - is this type of thing what you mean - the prob is that there is no reference to POA & WTD

Rules from 11 April 2007

Even though people know these rules, there’s still a lot of confusion, I had one not so long back that was convinced the driving breaks were 30 then 15, something to do with the WTD breaks changing it - from what I could make out he’d got the wrong end of half a dozen different sticks. There needs to be something with lots of pictures and words of no more than 2 syllables, that a 5 year old could understand.

Not everyone has access to the internet, let alone knowing about this site, some sort of booklet given away in truckstops and services is going to be available to everybody. (I know, I know, these things cost money )

ROG:
PS - sorry OP, bit off topic

I know, it was just a little thought, it’s just sort of gone off on one!

[dieseldave]

OOOOPs, posted in error

[simon]

What you seem to want is a free booklet, with explanatory pictures and diagrams ?

Something like this?[/url]
(Link to- Rules on Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs, Goods vehicles in the UK and Europe (Revised 2007) pdf.)
This booklet is available from LGV Driving and MOT Test stations, free of charge, just for the asking. They may not have it in stock on the day you initially call, but you can also phone or write and you will be sent one.
Click on the link and you can see it has many pictures and diagrams to illustrate and explain the rules and regs.
> ROG:
> - is this type of thing what you mean - the prob is that there is no reference to POA & WTD
>
> Rules from 11 April 2007
Strangely, on page 38 is an explanation of what each of the Tacho modes should be used for. It states
> Common Rules
> Operation of the mode switch or button
> Drivers must ensure that the mode switch on an analogue instrument or the mode button on a digital instrument is correctly set to record their activities.
>
> Driving symbol This is automatically recorded on most tachographs.
>
> Other work Covers all activities defined as work other than driving in scope of EU/AETR rules. Includes any work for the same or another employer, within or outside the transport sector.
>
> Availability Covers periods of waiting time, the duration of which is known about in advance. Examples of what might count as a period of availability (POA) are accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing or waiting while other workers load/unload your vehicle.
> For mobile workers driving in a team, a POA would also include time spent sitting next to the driver while the vehicle is in motion (unless taking a break or performing other work, i.e. navigation).
>
> Break or rest Covers breaks in work and daily or weekly rest periods. Drivers may not carry out any driving or any other work. [u]Break period[/u]s are used
> exclusively for recuperation. During a [u]rest period[/u] a driver must be freely able to dispose of his time.
In the booklet, an example of the actual symbol generally used on tacho heads is shown.
I also noticed a section of the document,
Annex 2: Working time rules, on page 43 starts -
> If you operate a vehicle in scope of the EU drivers’ hours rules, then you are subject to the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 (as amended — ‘the 2005 Regulations’), unless you are an occasional mobile worker or self-employed as defined in the 2005 Regulations (see text boxes at the end of this Annex for definitions).
> The main provisions of the 2005 Regulations are as follows:
It then goes on to explain the main points of the Working Time Directive as applied to Road Transport workers.
I am therefore quite surprised that you say
> ROG:
> - is this type of thing what you mean - the prob is that there is no reference to POA & WTD
>
> Rules from 11 April 2007
My surprise is due to the number of times I and others have referred you to this booklet. It is the handbook to the drivers regs produced by the Department for Transport in partnership with the transport industry, and therefore the reference handbook used by VOSA and the other authorities to prosecute us Yet you obviously haven’t read it, shown by you categorically stating there is no reference to POA and WTD, when there quite clearly is.

[rog]

Simon:
What you seem to want is a free booklet, with explanatory pictures and diagrams ?

Something like this?[/url]
(Link to- Rules on Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs, Goods vehicles in the UK and Europe (Revised 2007) pdf.)
[/quote]
Not like that - too long winded - needs to be much more simple - as someone said - so a 5 year old can understand it

[coffeeholic]

If you make them too simple you miss out a lot of the important bits, as you have done above for example.

Another point, doesn’t matter how simple you make them, and they are pretty simple already, you have to get people to read them in the first place. The majority of the tacho/WTD related questions posted on here can be answered very simply if the person just read the rules for them self, including the very important definitions of the various terms used, which you have omitted from your simplified version instead of going on the MMTM version. One word can make all the difference to a specific rule, omit that word in a ‘simplified’ version and you cahnge the rule. For example the word ‘following’ in the section about compensating reduced weekly rest, miss it out the whole rule changes.

The rules are simple but even when people read the rules for them self because they believe all the myths and BS they think there must be more to what they are reading and add in complications that aren’t there, something you yourself have done on more than one occasion.

The link Simon posted which you dismissed as too long winded only has about 10 pages on the EU rules and there are only that many pages because of the many easy to understand examples included in those pages. Without the examples it would all fit on a couple of pages, how much simpler does it need to be? The rules are aimed at people who have the necessary skills and intelligence to pass tests, not 5 year olds.

[rog]

At the start of trying this, I thought it might be a no-brainer but I had to try…

There are so many variables that it is difficult to simplify into, say, an A4 sized sheet of paper - unless the font size is 1

I may still have a go at it later but will probably have to omit the ‘reasons’ which will just leave the ‘facts’ - not a good idea… we’ll see…

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
There are so many variables that it is difficult to simplify

Classic example of what I was talking about above. There are very few variables but you have over complicated it by assuming there are and from that point it is all downhill.

The only things that could be seen as variables are; 9 hours driving per day but can be varied to 10 hours twice a week. 11 hours rest can be varied to 9 hours three times between weekly rests. 45 hours weekly rest can be varied to a minimum of 24 hours every second week. None of those are complicated or confusing are they? Just three short sentences which describe exactly what can be done, how could they be simplified in any way?

ROG:
I may still have a go at it later but will probably have to omit the ‘reasons’ which will just leave the ‘facts’ - not a good idea…

You are right, a terrible idea because it will just leave too many MMTM options.

[rog]

Coffeeholic:

ROG:
There are so many variables that it is difficult to simplify

Classic example of what I was talking about above. There are very few variables but you have over complicated it by assuming there are and from that point it is all downhill.

The only things that could be seen as variables are; 9 hours driving per day but can be varied to 10 hours twice a week. 11 hours rest can be varied to 9 hours three times between weekly rests. 45 hours weekly rest can be varied to a minimum of 24 hours every second week. None of those are complicated or confusing are they? Just three short sentences which describe exactly what can be done, how could they be simplified in any way?

ROG:
I may still have a go at it later but will probably have to omit the ‘reasons’ which will just leave the ‘facts’ - not a good idea…

You are right, a terrible idea because it will just leave too many MMTM options.

Just one option left then…
…forget it

[dieseldave]

ROG:
At the start of trying this, I thought it might be a no-brainer but I had to try…

There are so many variables that it is difficult to simplify into, say, an A4 sized sheet of paper - unless the font size is 1

I may still have a go at it later but will probably have to omit the ‘reasons’ which will just leave the ‘facts’ - not a good idea… we’ll see…

Hi ROG, IMHO you’re potentially about to create a problem that doesn’t currently exist, and maybe muddy the waters.

As Coffeeholic has pointed out, the process that you appear to be embarking upon MUST start with an understanding of the ‘definitions’ used in the legislation. Once those are learned, any reading of the rules themselves becomes much easier.

Another point I’d make is that the drivers’ hours legislation (Regulation EC No 561/2006) comes from Europe and is therefore not written using the same highly legalistic language as is used in UK legislation. IMHO, the most important part of it comes right at the end:

This Regulation shall be binding in its entireity and directly applicable in all Member States.

From even a cursory reading of the part I’ve quoted, there doesn’t seem to be much by way of options for anybody intent on re-writing it, but even if they do, they’d HAVE to stick with the definitions (mostly) contained in Article 4.

Also, as already pointed out, it has to be written the way it is in order that its intent is clear. IMHO, if it could have been written in a shorter, or less complicated form, then it probably would have been.

If proof of my point be needed, we need to look no further than the disclaimer in the VOSA document that Simon linked:

Disclaimer
This publication gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete or authoritative statement of the law. The guidance will be updated to reflect any developments in new legislation or case law.
If you wish to check the legal position, you should refer to the main legislation listed in Annex 1 and, if necessary, seek your own legal advice. The guidance offered in this publication reflects VOSA’s current enforcement policy. It does not reflect interpretation of the law in other countries.

That’s from people (allegedly ) more skilled at re-writing than any of us.
So ROG, if you do decide to press on with a simplified re-write, upon what will it be based when VOSA use such a disclaimer??
It’s a sleeping giant, so it’s probably best to let it lie.

[dieseldave]

It seems you got the idea as I was composing a response.

IMHO, that’s a good move on your part ROG.

[rog]

dieseldave:
:oops: It seems you got the idea as I was composing a response.

IMHO, that’s a good move on your part ROG.

Just borrowing your elephant & it’s brothers to make sure the idea has been well trampled


MAKE DRIVING REGS SIMPLE

        **MAKE DRIVING REGS SIMPLE**         **MAKE DRIVING REGS SIMPLE**         **MAKE DRIVING REGS SIMPLE**         **MAKE DRIVING REGS SIMPLE**         **_ _ _ _**

Done it

[macplaxton]

Simon:
What you seem to want is a free booklet, with explanatory pictures and diagrams ?

Something like this?
(Link to- Rules on Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs, Goods vehicles in the UK and Europe (Revised 2007) pdf.)

THIS PDF might be a bit handier.

I have it on an A4 piece of paper, but you might need to get the reading glasses out unless it’s on something a bit bigger.

[coffeeholic]

macplaxton:

Simon:
What you seem to want is a free booklet, with explanatory pictures and diagrams ?

Something like this?
(Link to- Rules on Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs, Goods vehicles in the UK and Europe (Revised 2007) pdf.)

THIS PDF might be a bit handier.

I have it on an A4 piece of paper, but you might need to get the reading glasses out unless it’s on something a bit bigger.

You need to be aware there is an error on that regarding ferry rest.