Midnight Rambler:
Myself I think it will be a harsh decision to send Dave Wagstaff to prison for this, yes he made a error of judgement and lacked attention and he should lose his entitlement to drive HGV’s but he did not set out that night to have a fatal accident where as the AIM driver made the decision to start drinking, he knew it was wrong to get in his lorry and start driving and he made the decision to stop in the live lane of a motorway at night for no reason.
You can say yes but Dave Wagstaff was driving on cruise control whilst making a handsfree phonecall but neither of those actions are illegal.
I agree with that completely. And IIRC there have been plenty of studies showing how nightwork affects people, including fughtiyng against your natural circadian rhythm, interference with attention and a host of other issues, along with the effects of doing a monotonous job, and I feel it unfair not to think of those when it comes to sentencing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
+1 there
he wasnt driving dangerously,he wasnt driving carelessly,he probably was driving without due care and attention,and it wasnt his fault that mr minibus was driving with the same lack of attention to come to a stop 25 yards away from a parked in lane 1 artic that for the previous 12 mins everyone else had driven past.
however,its media food now with the fedex dude as the bait,and the judge will make sure he covers his bum so theres no comeback for him and crucifixion will inevitably follow.
if there was no indian driven minibus in the sandwich then it would have been 1 truck creams another truck with a drunk driver and yesterdays news the next day.
id reckon the polish dude would have a good chance of mitigating circumstances than the fedex guy.
I don’t think the polish guy can claim he has mitigating circumstances, if his private life is causing him problems then that’s another reason he should not have been behind the wheel that night
stopping just after the slip makes me wonder had he the polish guy missed the turnoff and was waiting for a chance to back up. that might figure why the minibus stopped behind him,if his reversing lights were on or if he was even reversing - might be why hes in the jacknife position -mr minibus wouldnt be sure what to do hence put his hazaerds on
corij:
stopping just after the slip makes me wonder had he the polish guy missed the turnoff and was waiting for a chance to back up. that might figure why the minibus stopped behind him,if his reversing lights were on or if he was even reversing - might be why hes in the jacknife position -mr minibus wouldnt be sure what to do hence put his 0hazaerds on
corij:
stopping just after the slip makes me wonder had he the polish guy missed the turnoff and was waiting for a chance to back up. that might figure why the minibus stopped behind him,if his reversing lights were on or if he was even reversing - might be why hes in the jacknife position -mr minibus wouldnt be sure what to do hence put his 0hazaerds on
He was there over ten minutes apparently.
maybe traffic too busy to reverse ,maybe sat there waiting thinking…can i ? 10 mins ,then started to reverse? along comes minibus and slows to a halt thinking /realizing whats what. it could be coincidence but it almost looks like he was going to pull across the grass to get onto the slip. its just a theory but if i was a copper id be having a look at his destination and if hed missed the turn . Earlier on same night hed driven wrong way round a roundabout so that fits in,reckless sort
corij:
stopping just after the slip makes me wonder had he the polish guy missed the turnoff and was waiting for a chance to back up. that might figure why the minibus stopped behind him,if his reversing lights were on or if he was even reversing - might be why hes in the jacknife position -mr minibus wouldnt be sure what to do hence put his 0hazaerds on
He was there over ten minutes apparently.
maybe traffic too busy to reverse ,maybe sat there waiting thinking…can i ? 10 mins ,then started to reverse? along comes minibus and slows to a halt thinking /realizing whats what. it could be coincidence but it almost looks like he was going to pull across the grass to get onto the slip. its just a theory but if i was a copper id be having a look at his destination and if hed missed the turn . Earlier on same night hed driven wrong way round a roundabout so that fits in,reckless sort
well if you’ve ‘missed your turn’…surely you’d carry on to the next junction,and come back ffs
corij:
stopping just after the slip makes me wonder had he the polish guy missed the turnoff and was waiting for a chance to back up. that might figure why the minibus stopped behind him,if his reversing lights were on or if he was even reversing - might be why hes in the jacknife position -mr minibus wouldnt be sure what to do hence put his 0hazaerds on
He was there over ten minutes apparently.
maybe traffic too busy to reverse ,maybe sat there waiting thinking…can i ? 10 mins ,then started to reverse? along comes minibus and slows to a halt thinking /realizing whats what. it could be coincidence but it almost looks like he was going to pull across the grass to get onto the slip. its just a theory but if i was a copper id be having a look at his destination and if hed missed the turn . Earlier on same night hed driven wrong way round a roundabout so that fits in,reckless sort
well if you’ve ‘missed your turn’…surely you’d carry on to the next junction,and come back ffs
that could also be why the trucks that passed him sounded their horns-seeing him stopped so close to the slip ,honk honk “dont you dare reverse up you mad sod” . weve all seen cars back up by a slip but i must admit not ever seen a truck do it- but at night when hes beered up, yeah . by the looks of the photo hed almost made it onto the chevrons too [ guessing he got pushed a truck length forward in the collision]
I read somewhere in the press this week, or maybe on our local news, that he (the Polish driver) wasn’t even in the driving seat but sitting in a space between the two seats?
From the Nottingham Post this week; He found the AIM Logistics driver seated between the passengers’ and driver’s seat with his head in his hands.
corij:
stopping just after the slip makes me wonder had he the polish guy missed the turnoff and was waiting for a chance to back up. that might figure why the minibus stopped behind him,if his reversing lights were on or if he was even reversing - might be why hes in the jacknife position -mr minibus wouldnt be sure what to do hence put his 0hazaerds on
He was there over ten minutes apparently.
maybe traffic too busy to reverse ,maybe sat there waiting thinking…can i ? 10 mins ,then started to reverse? along comes minibus and slows to a halt thinking /realizing whats what. it could be coincidence but it almost looks like he was going to pull across the grass to get onto the slip. its just a theory but if i was a copper id be having a look at his destination and if hed missed the turn . Earlier on same night hed driven wrong way round a roundabout so that fits in,reckless sort
well if you’ve ‘missed your turn’…surely you’d carry on to the next junction,and come back ffs
Thursday, 17.30, westbound M62 and there’s a foreign truck reversing on the chevrons as I passed, so he could swing onto the slip for the M6
we are forgetting how disorienting this must have been for anyone approaching the stationary lorry.
as you approach jct 14 the roundabout over the top of the motorway will be lit, you would be able to see the dual lane slip road going up to the traffic lights because the lights will in effect highlight those lanes for you by reflection.
however the motorway ahead would be in darkness because the lights on the junction above won’t have the same effect because the road under will disappear into utter darkness under the junction, anyone remotely normal approaching a set of lorry rear side lights would expect that lorry to be moving, as it registers with them the vehicle is not moving they would expect it to be on the hard shoulder, but at that spot the hard shoulder has only just resumed after the slip road exited.
i’m not in the least surprised that someone, in this case the minibus stopped when they realised the lorry was stationary on a live lane, they might assume something had happened, no one in their right mind would come up with the idea some half ■■■■■■ twerp had pulled up for forty winks or, as suggested, waiting for the right moment to reverse back along the live lane, again i remind you all the lorry was not even on the hard shoulder.
also we are trying to link logical sensible thought process with someone half ■■■■■■■ the two are not compatible as anyone who has witnessed a police officer trying to talk rationally to a street drunk could tell you, it’s like trying to herd cats and banging you head against the wall at the same time, it isn’t happening.
if its hadn’t been the minibus driver stopping, inadvisedly as it happens, it would have been someone else.
we are wrong as vocational drivers trying to put our long won driving judgement on the actions of other road users, A who haven’t the vision that we have from our lofty driving position (though the tailgating lorry morons don’t value this aspect) and B other road users will not be as aware as we are of how much the standard of person sitting behind the wheel of lorries varies, from the thoughtful considerate people who deserve the title pro to the other end who should never have been issued with a lorry licence in the first place.
the sad irony here he wasn’t even currently licenced, and whether that person or persons responsible for employing and allowing him out ever have answer a court or not, they should if they have an ounce of humanity realise for the rest of their lives the responsibility they share in this sad affair.
Brilliant post Juddian and all very true Some of the comments on this thread are appalling especially about the mini bus driver and probably all for the wrong reasons.
Juddian I agree with you 100 % it must have been very very disorienting as it is not the sort of thing you would ever expect to see.
Mr Tyskie appears to be 100 % to blame here … unlicenced / ■■■■■■ /emotional basket case … death by dangerous driving all day long.
Poor Indian minibus driver
" that lorry up ahead is going slow "
1 2 3
" that lorry up ahead is really slow "
1 2 3
" ■■■■ … that lorry is stopped "
1 2 3
Brakes hard, hazards on, Are there pedestrians in the road ? Has there been an accident ? Are there animals on the road ? I better go around the lorry slowly
BANG !!!
I also have some sympathy for Mr Fedex for exactly the same reason. He has also had the good grace to be honest from the start about the phone and not seeing the vehicles and has admitted to the careless driving charge. He also has to live with the consequences of that accident for the rest of his life
windrush:
I read somewhere in the press this week, or maybe on our local news, that he (the Polish driver) wasn’t even in the driving seat but sitting in a space between the two seats?
From the Nottingham Post this week; He found the AIM Logistics driver seated between the passengers’ and driver’s seat with his head in his hands.
Pete.
thats just the sort of crafty trick that sort pulls, to muddy the water. drunk but making out he wasnt driving at time of crash. likely was backing up , minibus stops- then realizing trucks backing up- pulls out to pass him leaving Fedex with nowhere to go . bang. polish guy thinks ■■■■ its me thats caused it, hmmm, jump in between seats and plead i wasnt driving
windrush:
I read somewhere in the press this week, or maybe on our local news, that he (the Polish driver) wasn’t even in the driving seat but sitting in a space between the two seats?
From the Nottingham Post this week; He found the AIM Logistics driver seated between the passengers’ and driver’s seat with his head in his hands.
Pete.
thats just the sort of crafty trick that sort pulls, to muddy the water. drunk but making out he wasnt driving at time of crash. likely was backing up , minibus stops- then realizing trucks backing up- pulls out to pass him leaving Fedex with nowhere to go . bang. polish guy thinks [zb] its me thats caused it, hmmm, jump in between seats and plead i wasnt driving
SHYTOT:
Thought just crossed my mind lights on cars are bigger and brighter than on most HGVs
On m-way with other traffic all vehicles will likely be on dip beam. The headlights wont be any real use whatever their output. I dont know that junction well so won`t comment on the lighting there, but Juddian has talked about the lighting there.
Seems to me the very bright, concentrated, light patterns from modern headlights is counter productive. Looking at brightly lit objects in the center of the pattern the iris will close a little so the rest of the field of vision becomes dimmer. Salesmen of LEDs saying bigger brighter is better aint necessarily true. Probably nowt to do with whats happened here, of course.
SHYTOT:
Thought just crossed my mind lights on cars are bigger and brighter than on most HGVs
Seems to me the very bright, concentrated, light patterns from modern headlights is counter productive. Looking at brightly lit objects in the center of the pattern the iris will close a little so the rest of the field of vision becomes dimmer. Salesmen of LEDs saying bigger brighter is better aint necessarily true. Probably nowt to do with whats happened here, of course.
That is an increasing problem, and i agree with you fully Franglais.
Modern car headlights are very bright with sharply cut off beams affording little in the way of light scatter, so a driver is as you say trying to peer into total darkness whilst being blinded in effect by their super nukem bright lights.
I prefer less powerful lights but benefit from light scatter beyond, plus the majority of the beam isn’t so bright nor so sharply cut off that anything beyond disappears into an impenetrable void.
This will only get worse though because we are still in the light wars.
One other thing (which also probably had no effect in this case, but one never knows), i’m completely against the move from proper yellow inside red bordered long vehicle plates to the thin red reflective line at the rear of lorries manufactured in 2013 and later.
So long as they are clean and set as low at the rear of a vehicle as possible, the yellow inside red previous version really stands out in comparison, a vehicle approaching from behind has a better chance of their dipped beams catching the old style plates.
Another bit of backwards progress IMO, yet another example of those who don’t use the roads full time making the decisions which affect all road users.
SHYTOT:
Thought just crossed my mind lights on cars are bigger and brighter than on most HGVs
Seems to me the very bright, concentrated, light patterns from modern headlights is counter productive. Looking at brightly lit objects in the center of the pattern the iris will close a little so the rest of the field of vision becomes dimmer. Salesmen of LEDs saying bigger brighter is better aint necessarily true. Probably nowt to do with whats happened here, of course.
That is an increasing problem, and i agree with you fully Franglais.
Modern car headlights are very bright with sharply cut off beams affording little in the way of light scatter, so a driver is as you say trying to peer into total darkness whilst being blinded in effect by their super nukem bright lights.
I prefer less powerful lights but benefit from light scatter beyond, plus the majority of the beam isn’t so bright nor so sharply cut off that anything beyond disappears into an impenetrable void.
This will only get worse though because we are still in the light wars.
One other thing (which also probably had no effect in this case, but one never knows), i’m completely against the move from proper yellow inside red bordered long vehicle plates to the thin red reflective line at the rear of lorries manufactured in 2013 and later.
So long as they are clean and set as low at the rear of a vehicle as possible, the yellow inside red previous version really stands out in comparison, a vehicle approaching from behind has a better chance of their dipped beams catching the old style plates.
Another bit of backwards progress IMO, yet another example of those who don’t use the roads full time making the decisions which affect all road users.
We dont want this to become a mutual admiration society, but I do agree with all of that. The red/yellow plates are also much easier to keep clean, being at a sensible height. Im not going to climb a ladder to wipe black road salt off the top of the rear doors of my trailer, with or without a mountaineers harness and a luminous crash hat.
Im not recommending it, but on quiet unused roads, with half a moon or more, its better to run on sidelights and let your eyes become adjusted to the ambient light. You`ll see further and have all round vision. Not much practical use on busy UK roads, I know.
hazaerds on