Ltd Company: Refresh the advice

“100 miles = £45, 100 miles (above) costs £16.50 , £16.50 from £45 leaves £28.50 . Where did the £15 gain come into it ?”

If you are working for a company as an ordinary employee then you can make a “profit” of £28.50 (in this example) however this thread is about a person having thier own Ltd Company.

If you are running your own Ltd Company and you pay yourself £45 wages out of the company profits (your own profits) you might end up with approx £30 nett in your pay packet depending on individual circumstances. HMRC take approx £15. If you pay the £45 as mileage expenses instead you may get the whole £45 paid to you. A positive difference of £15. Dont forget that in both cases it was your profit in the first place that the £45 came from.

But to get that extra £15.00 (ie. avoid giving it to HMRC) you need to spend approx £16.50 on petrol (30 mpg). So you spend £16.50 to get £15.00 back. But as I said if you are doing the mileage anyway then it is beneficial.

I agree it isn’t 45p per mile profit. But its money per mile I am not getting paid at the moment. If it comes out of my companies profit and goes into my pocket legally its still a win/win for me. A company gets taxed on the profit it makes does it not? If that is the case, taking that 45p per mile and paying it to myself as the agreed HMRC rate for a mile in a car without being taxed on it reduces my overall tax liability.

If you look at the costs of my car for a month:

£170 finance
£120 fuel
£35 insurance
£2.50 RFL (ish)
£8 tyres - I expect a set of tyres to last two years and I can replace for around £100 a corner with original spec tyres from etyres.

That comes in at £335.50 per month to run the car which means on a 4 week month, I am gaining £64.50 which I otherwise wouldn’t have. But that is the HMRC approved rate so I would be stupid to pay myself less. There are benefits to driving the worlds smallest Vauxhall!

We are however getting hung up on one feature of an entire package. The big question is how would be best to pay myself. As an employee of the company, on PAYE with expenses, mileage etc on an hourly rate, then take the excess as a dividend at intervals or is there a better way?

Obviously things like work clothing, PPE and other equipment would be purchased by NPS Ltd rather than by myself, could I then pay myself a day rate which covered only Nick Smith’s fixed outgoings plus a little walking around money from the allowances and put everything else through the company? I’m 99.9% certain that NPS Ltd couldn’t pay a finance agreement in Nick Smith’s name so I would need money to pay for the car etc.

nsmith1180:
I agree it isn’t 45p per mile profit. But its money per mile I am not getting paid at the moment. If it comes out of my companies profit and goes into my pocket legally its still a win/win for me. A company gets taxed on the profit it makes does it not? If that is the case, taking that 45p per mile and paying it to myself as the agreed HMRC rate for a mile in a car without being taxed on it reduces my overall tax liability.

If you look at the costs of my car for a month:

£170 finance
£120 fuel
£35 insurance
£2.50 RFL (ish)
£8 tyres - I expect a set of tyres to last two years and I can replace for around £100 a corner with original spec tyres from etyres.

That comes in at £335.50 per month to run the car which means on a 4 week month, I am gaining £64.50 which I otherwise wouldn’t have. But that is the HMRC approved rate so I would be stupid to pay myself less. There are benefits to driving the worlds smallest Vauxhall!

We are however getting hung up on one feature of an entire package. The big question is how would be best to pay myself. As an employee of the company, on PAYE with expenses, mileage etc on an hourly rate, then take the excess as a dividend at intervals or is there a better way?

Obviously things like work clothing, PPE and other equipment would be purchased by NPS Ltd rather than by myself, could I then pay myself a day rate which covered only Nick Smith’s fixed outgoings plus a little walking around money from the allowances and put everything else through the company? I’m 99.9% certain that NPS Ltd couldn’t pay a finance agreement in Nick Smith’s name so I would need money to pay for the car etc.

On the last part, ideally a vehicle would be bought through the business and put back as a company car with personal use. That way tax could be claimed back as well as the business paying the vehicle itself. Usually it tends to be easier with vans though, or those double cab pickups if you need 5 seats.

nsmith1180:
I agree it isn’t 45p per mile profit. But its money per mile I am not getting paid at the moment. If it comes out of my companies profit and goes into my pocket legally its still a win/win for me. A company gets taxed on the profit it makes does it not? If that is the case, taking that 45p per mile and paying it to myself as the agreed HMRC rate for a mile in a car without being taxed on it reduces my overall tax liability.

If you look at the costs of my car for a month:

£170 finance
£120 fuel
£35 insurance
£2.50 RFL (ish)
£8 tyres - I expect a set of tyres to last two years and I can replace for around £100 a corner with original spec tyres from etyres.

That comes in at £335.50 per month to run the car which means on a 4 week month, I am gaining £64.50 which I otherwise wouldn’t have. But that is the HMRC approved rate so I would be stupid to pay myself less. There are benefits to driving the worlds smallest Vauxhall!

We are however getting hung up on one feature of an entire package. The big question is how would be best to pay myself. As an employee of the company, on PAYE with expenses, mileage etc on an hourly rate, then take the excess as a dividend at intervals or is there a better way?

Obviously things like work clothing, PPE and other equipment would be purchased by NPS Ltd rather than by myself, could I then pay myself a day rate which covered only Nick Smith’s fixed outgoings plus a little walking around money from the allowances and put everything else through the company? I’m 99.9% certain that NPS Ltd couldn’t pay a finance agreement in Nick Smith’s name so I would need money to pay for the car etc.

I dont understand how you gain £64.50 per 4 weeks. When you take the HMRC approved mileage rate of 45p per mile you cannot claim for any other car related expenses. So your finance, insurance and tax etc are then not taken into account. All the approved mileage does is to simplify the accounting for use of a private vehicle on company business in which case you get the approved rate with no further tax implications.

shake:

nsmith1180:
I agree it isn’t 45p per mile profit. But its money per mile I am not getting paid at the moment. If it comes out of my companies profit and goes into my pocket legally its still a win/win for me. A company gets taxed on the profit it makes does it not? If that is the case, taking that 45p per mile and paying it to myself as the agreed HMRC rate for a mile in a car without being taxed on it reduces my overall tax liability.

If you look at the costs of my car for a month:

£170 finance
£120 fuel
£35 insurance
£2.50 RFL (ish)
£8 tyres - I expect a set of tyres to last two years and I can replace for around £100 a corner with original spec tyres from etyres.

That comes in at £335.50 per month to run the car which means on a 4 week month, I am gaining £64.50 which I otherwise wouldn’t have. But that is the HMRC approved rate so I would be stupid to pay myself less. There are benefits to driving the worlds smallest Vauxhall!

We are however getting hung up on one feature of an entire package. The big question is how would be best to pay myself. As an employee of the company, on PAYE with expenses, mileage etc on an hourly rate, then take the excess as a dividend at intervals or is there a better way?

Obviously things like work clothing, PPE and other equipment would be purchased by NPS Ltd rather than by myself, could I then pay myself a day rate which covered only Nick Smith’s fixed outgoings plus a little walking around money from the allowances and put everything else through the company? I’m 99.9% certain that NPS Ltd couldn’t pay a finance agreement in Nick Smith’s name so I would need money to pay for the car etc.

I dont understand how you gain £64.50 per 4 weeks. When you take the HMRC approved mileage rate of 45p per mile you cannot claim for any other car related expenses. So your finance, insurance and tax etc are then not taken into account. All the approved mileage does is to simplify the accounting for use of a private vehicle on company business in which case you get the approved rate with no further tax implications.

I claim the approved rate for the mileage I do: 45p per mile for a 200 mile round trip. So its 34.50 not 64.50, sorry.

That repays me for expenses already incurred and the rate is set down by HMRC, so they won’t quibble it and cant complain if I claim it.

My fuel expense for a month is 120 quid. That would leave me with 380 quid a month of money I am perfectly entitled to claim which wasn’t spent on fuel but it can be spent on the running costs of the car. The ‘gain’ is that the approved rate will pay me more per month than the car actually costs me in that period of time, even factoring in wear and tear. The only thing I forgot to put in was servicing at £15.06 per month.

Any gain here is relative to working for the agency at the moment. I am not saying money is going to magically appear, I am saying how at the Ltd Co. rate the agency pays I think I can make the most of the money.

If you claim 45p per mile that’s all you can claim if you claim other bits you lose the 45p.

mac12:
If you claim 45p per mile that’s all you can claim if you claim other bits you lose the 45p.

I know, what I am saying is that the 45p per mile covers all the expenses, so there is no point in going down the estimating the percentage of use and claiming back the tax route. If I was driving a VXR8 I would probably be better off doing it the other way but a 1.2 Adam is a frugal little motor.

nsmith said "We are however getting hung up on one feature of an entire package. The big question is how would be best to pay myself. As an employee of the company, on PAYE with expenses, mileage etc on an hourly rate, then take the excess as a dividend at intervals or is there a better way? "

The best way to pay yourself will vary from person to person.

I don’t know what kind of work you do but many agency drivers could be classed as failing the so called IR35 test in which case HMRC COULD ask you for further tax & Ni payments than you may not have initially budgeted for. However many people do not get looked at as HMRC is overworked.

As a limited company you could get an extra £1 to £3 per hour (my experience) compared to PAYE rates but don’t forget that you are losing your holiday pay which agencies must pay thier PAYE workers (28 days or pro rata for part time work).

If you feel comfortable in setting up a limited company after looking at IR35 (look up deemed payments) then that could be a good way. The drawbacks are that if you pay yourself too little and don’t pay any NI then this may affect your state pension. Most times the best way is to pay yourself just enough PAYE (you need to register witth HMRC as an employer) to exceed the secondary earnings level (I think £153 per week) but not enough to attract large NI liabilities as you will, as an employer of yourself, also have to pay 13.8% employers NI contibutions on any wages above the secondary threshold. If HMRC disagreed with your set up you could be liable to pay almost 26% of your pay as both employers and employees NI.

After you have drawn the level of pay that you feel is appropriate then you may look to paying yourself dividends. Dividends can be paid on a weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly basis but there are certain hoops that you must go through so the dividends are not classed as illegal. briefly they are that you must be solvent before taking any dividend (bearing in mind obligations such as tax due but not paid), you must call a board meeting with yourself to agree the dividend and document the minutes to show this and finally you need to issue yourself with a tax voucher. if you want to use a directors loan account then do not fall foul of the Bed and Breakfasting regulations.

The tax offsets are not as great as some think. You may claim for PPE but very unlikely for (say) trousers, jackets etc especially if they are not logoed as these are usually considered to be available to be worn outside of work. Mobile phones should idealy be in the company name and only a proportion can be claimed for. There are other items but not really any great saving and some could cause complications with mortgage lenders etc.

Lastly you would need to be able to budget for your end of year tax bill, register with HMRC as an employer(■■) and be aware of the time scales for lodging the required filings with Companies House, HMRC and making any payments due. Would you need an accountant (charges likely to be £500 to £1000 per yr)

Lots of people go via the limited company route but I do wonder if they make the savings that they expected. And I do know that many just spend the gross money and end up in a mess. However one of the biggest boosts to Ltd Company earnings would be to register for the Flat Rate Vat Scheme (FRVS). In a nut shell you charge 20% VAT on your invoices but only pay 10% to HMRC but you cannot recalim VAT on your purchases. As your sales (wages) should far exceed you purchases you get in effect a near10% boost on your wages.

If you can work for an employer or an agency on a PAYE basis you have no big bill tax worries you get holiday pay and it is surprising how many items ( such as mileage to a temporary workplace) you can claim for even though you are PAYE – do a self assessment or use form P87)

I would not touch a payroll company as in my limited experience they will charge you a weekly fee and take employers as well as employess Ni from you. The extra hourly rate you may get is not usually compensated for by the loss of holiday pay.

long winded but I hope it gives you some ideas and frankly I would be very surprised if your weekly rate could rise from £500 to £850 just by going limited.

shake:
nsmith said "We are however getting hung up on one feature of an entire package. The big question is how would be best to pay myself. As an employee of the company, on PAYE with expenses, mileage etc on an hourly rate, then take the excess as a dividend at intervals or is there a better way? "

The best way to pay yourself will vary from person to person.

I don’t know what kind of work you do but many agency drivers could be classed as failing the so called IR35 test in which case HMRC COULD ask you for further tax & Ni payments than you may not have initially budgeted for. However many people do not get looked at as HMRC is overworked.

As a limited company you could get an extra £1 to £3 per hour (my experience) compared to PAYE rates but don’t forget that you are losing your holiday pay which agencies must pay thier PAYE workers (28 days or pro rata for part time work).

If you feel comfortable in setting up a limited company after looking at IR35 (look up deemed payments) then that could be a good way. The drawbacks are that if you pay yourself too little and don’t pay any NI then this may affect your state pension. Most times the best way is to pay yourself just enough PAYE (you need to register witth HMRC as an employer) to exceed the secondary earnings level (I think £153 per week) but not enough to attract large NI liabilities as you will, as an employer of yourself, also have to pay 13.8% employers NI contibutions on any wages above the secondary threshold. If HMRC disagreed with your set up you could be liable to pay almost 26% of your pay as both employers and employees NI.

After you have drawn the level of pay that you feel is appropriate then you may look to paying yourself dividends. Dividends can be paid on a weekly/monthly/quarterly/yearly basis but there are certain hoops that you must go through so the dividends are not classed as illegal. briefly they are that you must be solvent before taking any dividend (bearing in mind obligations such as tax due but not paid), you must call a board meeting with yourself to agree the dividend and document the minutes to show this and finally you need to issue yourself with a tax voucher. if you want to use a directors loan account then do not fall foul of the Bed and Breakfasting regulations.

The tax offsets are not as great as some think. You may claim for PPE but very unlikely for (say) trousers, jackets etc especially if they are not logoed as these are usually considered to be available to be worn outside of work. Mobile phones should idealy be in the company name and only a proportion can be claimed for. There are other items but not really any great saving and some could cause complications with mortgage lenders etc.

Lastly you would need to be able to budget for your end of year tax bill, register with HMRC as an employer(■■) and be aware of the time scales for lodging the required filings with Companies House, HMRC and making any payments due. Would you need an accountant (charges likely to be £500 to £1000 per yr)

Lots of people go via the limited company route but I do wonder if they make the savings that they expected. And I do know that many just spend the gross money and end up in a mess. However one of the biggest boosts to Ltd Company earnings would be to register for the Flat Rate Vat Scheme (FRVS). In a nut shell you charge 20% VAT on your invoices but only pay 10% to HMRC but you cannot recalim VAT on your purchases. As your sales (wages) should far exceed you purchases you get in effect a near10% boost on your wages.

If you can work for an employer or an agency on a PAYE basis you have no big bill tax worries you get holiday pay and it is surprising how many items ( such as mileage to a temporary workplace) you can claim for even though you are PAYE – do a self assessment or use form P87)

I would not touch a payroll company as in my limited experience they will charge you a weekly fee and take employers as well as employess Ni from you. The extra hourly rate you may get is not usually compensated for by the loss of holiday pay.

long winded but I hope it gives you some ideas and frankly I would be very surprised if your weekly rate could rise from £500 to £850 just by going limited.

Well worth a second read. +1

shake:
as an employer of yourself, also have to pay 13.8% employers NI contibutions on any wages above the secondary threshold.

Just to add that you won’t have to pay any employer National Insurance contributions at all if you usually pay less than £2,000 a year…

Torkey:

shake:
as an employer of yourself, also have to pay 13.8% employers NI contibutions on any wages above the secondary threshold.

Just to add that you won’t have to pay any employer National Insurance contributions at all if you usually pay less than £2,000 a year…

Employment Allowance: What you'll get - GOV.UK

Hi Torkey

I would agree that the Employment Support Allowance of up to £2,000 is available but I have not mentioned it because I doubt that SOME drivers Ltd companies will be eligible.

The eligibility requirements start going back to the grey area if IR 35.

gov.uk/claim-employment-allowance#ee

If you follow the link to “deemed payments” it leads back the old thorny issue of IR35.

True you may get the allowance to offset any employers NI that you pay. However there is a chance you could be asked to refund this (who knows).

In my (non expert) view don’t bother claiming and just keep the wage/dividend ratio so you avoid paying all but pennies in the first place.

Most folk will have accountants anyway to make these decisions.

I think you have the right idea.
I don’t think you need an accountant, just a methodical tidy approach. All the tax and company information is available online
Your expenses will virtually nullify your tax liability
Join the URTU for the legal assistance and protection (an allowable expense)
Build up a safeguard fund in case of sickness

Join the URTU for the legal assistance and protection (an allowable expense) Build up a safeguard fund in case of sickness

Are you sure Euro??, generally union fees or fees to any “Body” are not deductible unless on the list. I cannot see URTU on the list.

hmrc.gov.uk/list3/list3.htm

EIM32885 - Other expenses: professional fees and subscriptions: trade union subscriptions

Subscriptions to trade unions and other comparable bodies are not deductible under Section 336 ITEPA 2003, even where membership is required by the employer. The expense is not incurred in the performance of the duties, see EIM31650. Nor is it necessarily incurred, see EIM31645.

Is there some arrangement with URTU??

Building up an fund in case of sickness is (IMO) a very good idea.

shake:
Join the URTU for the legal assistance and protection (an allowable expense) Build up a safeguard fund in case of sickness

Are you sure Euro??, generally union fees or fees to any “Body” are not deductible unless on the list. I cannot see URTU on the list.

hmrc.gov.uk/list3/list3.htm

EIM32885 - Other expenses: professional fees and subscriptions: trade union subscriptions

Subscriptions to trade unions and other comparable bodies are not deductible under Section 336 ITEPA 2003, even where membership is required by the employer. The expense is not incurred in the performance of the duties, see EIM31650. Nor is it necessarily incurred, see EIM31645.

Is there some arrangement with URTU??

Building up an fund in case of sickness is (IMO) a very good idea.

You are right. However, I always included the URTU fee in my self assessment tax return on the basis that I was paying for professional, un-limited legal representation and their publication is a professional journal keeping me up to date with legislation. It was never queried. You are making me feel guilty now!

Hi euro

Join the club. I have been feeling guilty for the past 6 years