Rjan:
albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Cutting to the chase,
You couldn’t cut to the chase of your life depended on it. 
Rjan:
Even I tend to write down the steps of any process where compliance is critical - although of course as an experienced man I’m not usually fumbling with notes just to drop a trailer, but I’m recounting the steps in my head. But for any process that requires more than about 7 distinct steps to be counted, I’d probably need a written memo - and if it’s not always obvious where I’m up to or it’s possible to lose track, then I’d use a checklist.
Best you’re not the one doing the writing where time is critical. What about taking a dump? Do you use a memo or checklist? I count more than 7 steps. Compliance is critical.
muckles:
Rjan:
albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Cutting to the chase,
You couldn’t cut to the chase of your life depended on it.
muckles:
Rjan:
albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Cutting to the chase,
You couldn’t cut to the chase of your life depended on it.
How’d you find that? 
been looking for ten mins and can’t find that. Like a game of where’s wally
James the cat:
muckles:
Rjan:
albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Cutting to the chase,
You couldn’t cut to the chase of your life depended on it.
How’d you find that?
It was in the first line, 
Rjan’s answers are like a politicians.
Pages of waffle with very little substance.
What would you use the 300 k for anyway? It s a specific amount. I can appreciate lots of earnings but that’s an amount that would clean a company dry? Can’t see the point in putting a firm under and lots of other drivers out of work unless the amount actually was a warrantable figure
Freight Dog:
What would you use the 300 k for anyway? It s a specifics amount
I assume the figure is made up of the money he needs in the bank for loss of earnings and future healthcare and equipment needs for the injuries sustained.
I ■■■■■■ on an electric fence once, no one told me not to, can I sue the farmer? There is no lasting damage apart from it being longer than most lads
Doubt it’s going to significantly affect the company (not to the tune of £300k at any rate) as it would be covered by their employer liability insurance.
Henrys cat:
Rjan:
As Henry’s Cat mentioned, when you’re working around power lines, a person is specifically given the job of looking for them, and then pointing them out again and again to everyone who will work near them.I never said that as that never happens.
I work on the railways and as such we have a rather decent set up regarding hazards, especially as the work area is known. So part of the SSOW pack contains the hazard directory for the work mileage we have. The task brief identifies these hazards specific to our area of work, ie power lines, bridges, even badger sets. We don’t have a specific person looking out for the power lines it’s down to the machine operator and machine controller, but its a job the whole works team does anyway and the machine operator has the final say.
Ah fair one, I’d interpreted that you were referring to distribution power lines, not overhead conductors on the rails.
I should also be clear when I say someone is “looking out” for them, I don’t mean looking out constantly in case the lines get up and walk away, I mean it is someone’s specific task to systematically assess the site for hazards before work starts, and communicate those to everyone else - which is exactly what you describe. And the railways, being built from the ground up as a fairly controlled and regular environment, tend to have hazards that present in regular ways that are amenable to systematic assessment. The attitude isn’t taken that everyone has their own eyes and can see everything for themselves.
But, this case shows why we have all of this in place. 1 person, either through stupidity or not thinking, makes a mistake and everyone is tarred with the same brush, and stupid briefs and rules are implemented. As part of my job I may sometimes need to climb on the steel work to get the job done, for this I have been on a working/climbing at heights course, have a full fall arrest harness and have been doing it several years very safely. The site we are on has banned this because 1 moron on another site forgot to clip on and fell, so we are all banned from doing this. End result is the jobs taking longer as we are struggling to reach some parts and having to reset machines to reach, they’re now complaining that the jobs taking longer. Yet on another job run by the same firm in a different part of the country its ok to climb■■?
I won’t say whether the specific rules are sensible in your case, but it shouldn’t be looked at as tarring everyone with the same brush. It’s about recognising that people do make mistakes (in the nature of oversights, and spur-of-the-moment judgments that can seem totally foolish in retrospect), and when they do, and it’s the kind of mistake that can get people killed or seriously injured (not always just the person responsible but also their co-workers), it’s a sign that the safety system is not sufficient, because it is supposed to entirely prevent those kinds mistakes. It’s supposed to render oversights harmless.
It shouldn’t always be assumed that risks have to be taken with lives just to get a job done - at the end of the day, power lines can be switched off at source, diggers which threaten to hit bridges and overhead structures can if necessary be fitted with technology which limits their working height or detects impending collisions. If necessary, large diggers can be replaced with smaller ones, or by men with shovels. There is always something that can be done to embed safety into the equipment, environment, and working practices, rather than taking the equipment and environment as you find it and assuming the workers must make do.
It’s because so many people (workers as much as bosses) stubbornly stick to the idea that it’s humanly possible not to make any mistakes at all, that unnecessary risks are approached and injuries eventually sustained, resulting in bad attitudes and fury instead of lessons learned. It’s like a kind of malign ideology that is completely immune to the facts of everyone’s everyday experience.
No worker in any occupation makes no mistakes - the mistakes that a person makes all the time are usually quickly forgotten because they are of little consequence and/or easily identified and remedied after further thought or consideration (often through the worker checking their own work, which is built into them by habit - but the opportunity to stand back and check work, relies on workers having time to check and review their actions, and on mistakes not having sudden consequences).
It shouldn’t even be fed back to workers that a job is taking longer due to another safety measure (in any sense of implying that it is taking an excessive amount of time) - because the first thing that will do is encourage the job to be rushed, countering the entire safety framework which depends on workers being paced, deliberate, and careful.
And usually the resulting corner-cutting will not involve directly defying the latest safety diktak, and going back to a quicker but established practice which led to the latest accident, but will involve cutting over some other established and settled safety practice which is often more fundamental but on which there is less management attention.
And sure enough, it will be the first thing to come out of the woodwork when an accident happens - employers will point to their reams of paperwork which describes a safety system and endless training, and the worker will point to four little words oft-repeated by managers which didn’t appear anywhere in the safety documentation: “you’re taking too long”.
And that’s why the employer will end up paying for the whole mess again if yet another accident happens, because having spend so much time articulating their own safety standards, they couldn’t help themselves from re-briefing workers with verbal instructions to hurry up and cut corners.
muckles:
Rjan:
albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Cutting to the chase,
You couldn’t cut to the chase of your life depended on it.
Well, when it comes to safety, my life depends on not cutting to the chase! 
We live in a society where terrorists are awarded compensation after they have committed terroism offences…rule nothing out.
Freight Dog:
What would you use the 300 k for anyway? It s a specific amount. I can appreciate lots of earnings but that’s an amount that would clean a company dry? Can’t see the point in putting a firm under and lots of other drivers out of work unless the amount actually was a warrantable figure
Drop in the ocean for most companies…
James the cat:
Rjan:
Even I tend to write down the steps of any process where compliance is critical - although of course as an experienced man I’m not usually fumbling with notes just to drop a trailer, but I’m recounting the steps in my head. But for any process that requires more than about 7 distinct steps to be counted, I’d probably need a written memo - and if it’s not always obvious where I’m up to or it’s possible to lose track, then I’d use a checklist.Best you’re not the one doing the writing where time is critical. What about taking a dump? Do you use a memo or checklist? I count more than 7 steps. Compliance is critical.
To me, time is never more critical than doing the job safely. I try to work steadily and systematically, regardless of how long it takes - and for that reason, I usually end up taking less time averaged over a few repetitions, and certainly a more consistent and predictable amount of time, because I never have any mess to clear up (or any mess to be cleared up for me by someone else).
And a dump is not critical. If I forget to wipe my arse before I’ve pulled up my trousers, it’s usually obvious, and I can go back and make good. And it’s certainly not unheard of to forget to check whether any toilet paper is present before committing to it - in the house, if the roll runs out and there aren’t any spares behind the toilet, I’m left shuffling to the cupboard with a ■■■■■■ arse.
And I’ve certainly sat on someone else’s toilet before now and found that the cistern is empty.
If one really did try and ensure 100% reliability of the whole task, you’d be pre-flushing or dipping the cistern before sitting down, you’d have a spare bucket of water in case of mechanical failure, you’d be carrying your own toilet roll around, and so on. It’s precisely because it’s not a critical safety task, that I don’t need to engage in any of that, and I can just make do with it almost always going to plan, and taking such steps as necessary when it doesn’t.
Recently I nearly fell over backwards getting into bed, and stumbled into the mirror on the wall. Thank god it is made of hardy glass - and not electrified.
Freight Dog:
What would you use the 300 k for anyway? It s a specific amount. I can appreciate lots of earnings but that’s an amount that would clean a company dry? Can’t see the point in putting a firm under and lots of other drivers out of work unless the amount actually was a warrantable figure
Firms should usually have insurance to cover - the law mandates that, too.
Rjan:
muckles:
Rjan:
albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Cutting to the chase,
You couldn’t cut to the chase of your life depended on it.
Well, when it comes to safety, my life depends on not cutting to the chase!
I’ve written manuals covering H&S requirements for drivers which are shorter than your ramblings.
muckles:
Rjan:
muckles:
Rjan:
Cutting to the chase,You couldn’t cut to the chase of your life depended on it.
Well, when it comes to safety, my life depends on not cutting to the chase!
I’ve written manuals covering H&S requirements for drivers which are shorter than your ramblings.
But we’re not writing a H&S manual for drivers to follow. We’re talking mainly about the public policy around H&S.
A belief that seems to abound here is that employers only have to protect workers from injuries that arise otherwise than from workers’ own mistakes, when in fact workers’ own mistakes are a main cause of accidents that they need to be protected from (and compensated for if they arise). It’s not easy to justify why that should be the case just by exchanging a few soundbites.
It’s getting to the point where you moan about the length of my posts but spare no effort taking to the keyboard to complain about them, instead of adding anything useful - if you agree with my posts and think you can boil down what they contain in a way that still covers all points and hopes to persuade anyone who doesn’t already agree, then please do so. It would surely be great if every disagreement on a complex subject could be argued and resolved with a few grunts and murmurs.
Stop.
Get out of lorry.
Look around.
If lifting something look up
If power lines are near you don’t lift
Find a safer area
personally rjan I am happy you keep making people think
How about, if tipping, look [emoji102] up, if dropping a trailer, look [emoji102] down, if reversing, look [emoji102] behind you, and if driving forward, look [emoji102] where you are ZB going.
I think thats a good policy one that i will follow in the future thanks
