Lorry driver seeks High Court damages of more than £300,000

the maoster:
Hmm, I’m in a quandary with this one; on one hand I believe that stupidity should be punished at best or killed at worst, otherwise the stupid gene will just be bred into successive generations. On the other hand though the company haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory have they? In this litigious day and age it is no longer good enough to say “well we’ve always done it this way” as that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Just turning a blind eye to bad practices will not cut it nowadays, and companies can not cherry pick which H&S rules to implement when it suits them.

In balance though I have never received training from my company telling me not to crash into a bus stop full of nuns and toddlers and TBF I’d not expect them to, some things should be plain and evident to a sane person.

I’ve received training telling me not to crash into bus queues of nuns. And got a certificate for it. Admittedly some people are surprised I actually have a driving licence…
I’m not saying that this guy sounds like a particularly bright spark (normally), but I suspect that the company will be in trouble on this one. If they didn’t issue instructions on how to do the job (the bit outside of driving) I can see that they’re in the mire.
Looks like they may have employed someone to write their H&S policy who doesn’t actually know how the job works: e.g. preventing drivers getting up to sweep out the box, but not providing instructions about how to clean the box safely?

Many of us, especially those of us here of course, moan about being treated like fools, then we see reports like this. H&S policy is written for all employees, not written and tailor made for each individual. It seems “common sense” isn’t that common after all and instructions have got to be suitable for all.

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

Having been into the quarry that this driver was going to I can tell you that you CANNOT enter your buck to sweep out. You are told to go away and sweep out and then return to quarry to load. This is how sweeping out grain into laybyes is now the normal thing to do.
In fact I could name one quarry that once told me to go away and sweep out some 10mm gravel because they didn’t want it contaminating the load of silica sand. I asked if they had a sweep out area and the reply was to use the layby down the road.
The quarries themselves need to start having a sweep out zone inside the quarry after all they have a bloody great hole to fill and stop using Health and Safety excuses on the drivers.

msgyorkie:
Having been into the quarry that this driver was going to I can tell you that you CANNOT enter your buck to sweep out. You are told to go away and sweep out and then return to quarry to load. This is how sweeping out grain into laybyes is now the normal thing to do.
In fact I could name one quarry that once told me to go away and sweep out some 10mm gravel because they didn’t want it contaminating the load of silica sand. I asked if they had a sweep out area and the reply was to use the layby down the road.
The quarries themselves need to start having a sweep out zone inside the quarry after all they have a bloody great hole to fill and stop using Health and Safety excuses on the drivers.

And this bit from Franglais…

Looks like they may have employed someone to write their H&S policy who doesn’t actually know how the job works: e.g. preventing drivers getting up to sweep out the box, but not providing instructions about how to clean the box safely?

I have come up against these sort of senarios in the last few years, companies absolving themselves of the H&S nightmare they have imposed upon them selves by outrightly banning any activity outside of their comfort zone. So much for safety being everones responsibility when they make drivers sheet/strap up on the side of the road OUTSIDE of their premisies and thus absolving them of any responsibility leading to our original bellend sweeping out on a public road, alright an organic product to which the birds will make short work of, but really, I wouldnt want to have arrived on it ten minutes later on my bike after our candidate tipped it out.
Recently had a hi-viz bod with an official looking clipboard approach me doing my thing and screamed all stop as their big book of facts said I was doing it wrong.
My reply was how “should” I be doing it then?
Oh no, its not my job to tell you how to do it in a complient method, just not the way I have been doing it for 20 years as we dont think its safe.
“Well you had better come up with a plan real quick” as I gathered up my equipment and walked off.

This is just another example of the machine pushing us to see us break. Next time a customer wont load you because you have some grain in the cracks of your trailer, Man up.
Its up to them to solve the problem if they wont let you sweep out on their site and their load wont get delivered, thus depriving them of income. Either they will help out or they have become so complacent with the race to the bottom that they will employ another company who is prepared to tip ■■■■ in the middle of the road.
Turns out Karma does bite ■■■■■■■■■ in the arse after all. And then they want compensation for being an idiot. Good luck with that.

Rjan:

albion:
Driver crushed because he failed to put his parking brake on and company fined because they didn’t have a policy. It’s his job, he has the license and frankly that old common sense appears again, you put your parking brake on.

If they were fined, that suggests more than an accident. So I looked the article up that you linked, and sure enough:
“failed to implement a safe system of work which resulted in the frequent misuse of trailer parking brakes by drivers on site”

They weren’t fined merely because they didn’t have a written policy on handbrakes - as if such a thing is even necessary. They were fined because they weren’t doing anything to tackle the issue about how trailers were being routinely dropped without their brakes being applied.

We’ve all left a handbrake off now and again. Nowadays, the alarm in the cab sounds - that’s one safety feature. Another safety feature is that the trailer has its brake on. A third is that the yard is built level. One oversight should never be enough to cause calamity, that’s why this company was fined

I bet they have one now though, plus numerous others which we would all think were just common sense.

The firm I work for issue me with 3 folders of risk assessments for everything we do, this is along with having to sign a SSOW pack and task brief each shift after being briefed on them by the relevant person in charge. We regularly work in close proximity to live power lines with cranes and mewps so are all well aware of the risks.

Once again more H&S bull will have to be produced to cover lack of basic common sense.

Iirc after this incident the firm had a sale of some type ,it was in commercial motor ,can’t remember the exact reasons stated ?

The trailer was in the sale I know who is using now too .

the maoster:

muckles:
I’m sure you can make you point in far fewer words.

Don’t be too harsh on Rjan, I grant you he’s very wordy but his command of the English language is commendable and quite refreshing on here at least. I secretly cheered when he decided to go head to head with Carryfast as I surmised that he’d be stubborn enough to post forever in order to get the last word (or Opus) in. Sadly he seems to have dropped that particular baton :smiley: , thank God for Freight Dog who seems to have picked it up lately. My only fear is that FD is a normal human and soon will lose the will to live when faced with a constant barrage of CF speak and will merely scroll straight past like the rest of us do. :wink:

Just becomes a war of attrition. A chat with CF is spent clarifying comical misinterpretation. His devious attempt to muddy the waters :laughing: .

Yeah, I am actually bored of that one now to be honest :smiley:

eagerbeaver:

Rjan:

eagerbeaver:

Grumpy Dad:

There is no way on earth ANY company will condone/expect any driver to empty any kind of matter onto a public highway.

Of course they would! I’ve been at firms that wouldn’t care if your wheels fell off on the public highway, so long as it doesn’t cause a fuss. Not the larger firms, mind, but the three-man-bands certainly.

Name a firm that condones it’s drivers tipping onto a public highway.

Tarmac [emoji14]

msgyorkie:
Having been into the quarry that this driver was going to I can tell you that you CANNOT enter your buck to sweep out. You are told to go away and sweep out and then return to quarry to load. This is how sweeping out grain into laybyes is now the normal thing to do.
In fact I could name one quarry that once told me to go away and sweep out some 10mm gravel because they didn’t want it contaminating the load of silica sand. I asked if they had a sweep out area and the reply was to use the layby down the road.
The quarries themselves need to start having a sweep out zone inside the quarry after all they have a bloody great hole to fill and stop using Health and Safety excuses on the drivers.

In that case you sweep the lorry out in the customers premises where you unload. It is their product.

is what looks like approximately one kilo of grain in a countryside layby really such a big deal?
never having done bulk tippers like that,id be assuming that there would be a slight residue inside that would only become apparent after you bounced it down the road a few miles even after it was swept out wherever you tipped?
the dude was only unobservant where he stopped to raise the ram.
nobody to blame except himself.

Wheel Nut 3:

msgyorkie:
Having been into the quarry that this driver was going to I can tell you that you CANNOT enter your buck to sweep out. You are told to go away and sweep out and then return to quarry to load. This is how sweeping out grain into laybyes is now the normal thing to do.
In fact I could name one quarry that once told me to go away and sweep out some 10mm gravel because they didn’t want it contaminating the load of silica sand. I asked if they had a sweep out area and the reply was to use the layby down the road.
The quarries themselves need to start having a sweep out zone inside the quarry after all they have a bloody great hole to fill and stop using Health and Safety excuses on the drivers.

In that case you sweep the lorry out in the customers premises where you unload. It is their product.

The driver could quite easily have swept the grain out of the trailer into the lay-by it didn’t have to be tipped, the driver through neglect raised the trailer without checking for clearance and it therefore to blame

harrawaffa:

chester1:
Remain in the cab for one

Your man here wasn’t in the cab hence why he was set on fire and launched into the nearest field.

I thought the tipping leaver will have been in the cab . They usually get the belt when they get out of the truck them being the earth .

I don’t think he will get very far with blaming the company for raising the tipper under the cables, but I think the questions should be asked as to why he was having to do that in that location. Why was there nowhere more suitable to do that? Is that company, planning, or driver at fault? And that’s where he might have ammunition for a claim of some sort even if it’s not exactly for the raising of the tipper where the cables are.

chester1:

harrawaffa:

chester1:
Remain in the cab for one

Your man here wasn’t in the cab hence why he was set on fire and launched into the nearest field.

I thought the tipping leaver will have been in the cab . They usually get the belt when they get out of the truck them being the earth .

Leaver is down the side of the drivers seat next to the remote for the air suspension. The reason it’s there is so you can stand outside and watch your height when tipping under overhead obstructions. Or not in this case.

Henrys cat:

Rjan:
If they were fined, that suggests more than an accident. So I looked the article up that you linked, and sure enough:
“failed to implement a safe system of work which resulted in the frequent misuse of trailer parking brakes by drivers on site”

They weren’t fined merely because they didn’t have a written policy on handbrakes - as if such a thing is even necessary. They were fined because they weren’t doing anything to tackle the issue about how trailers were being routinely dropped without their brakes being applied.

We’ve all left a handbrake off now and again. Nowadays, the alarm in the cab sounds - that’s one safety feature. Another safety feature is that the trailer has its brake on. A third is that the yard is built level. One oversight should never be enough to cause calamity, that’s why this company was fined

I bet they have one now though, plus numerous others which we would all think were just common sense.

The firm I work for issue me with 3 folders of risk assessments for everything we do, this is along with having to sign a SSOW pack and task brief each shift after being briefed on them by the relevant person in charge. We regularly work in close proximity to live power lines with cranes and mewps so are all well aware of the risks.

Once again more H&S bull will have to be produced to cover lack of basic common sense.

In other words, the key here is not the paperwork, it’s the fact that on every single site where that risk is present, a man takes you by the hand every single morning, points to the thing, and says “LOOK!”. And that’s on top of the rest of your training and experience.

The thing is lots of companies focus on paperwork, especially signed paperwork as if they’re drafting a legal agreement, when it’s not about whether you have signed paperwork.

True, courts expect companies generally to have business records, because they don’t much believe that anyone is capable of keeping everything in their head - and when, following an accident, it turns out no records exist, courts make the appropriate inferences.

Even I tend to write down the steps of any process where compliance is critical - although of course as an experienced man I’m not usually fumbling with notes just to drop a trailer, but I’m recounting the steps in my head. But for any process that requires more than about 7 distinct steps to be counted, I’d probably need a written memo - and if it’s not always obvious where I’m up to or it’s possible to lose track, then I’d use a checklist.

For obvious reasons, in a practical job where you need to use your hands, it’s easy to become overwhelmed if you’re being expected to use pen and paper to ensure your reliability - and not things built into the equipment, like interlocks, or abacus-like devices which (like the pen and paper, but without having to be carried) you are trained to manipulate as you work to allow you to keep track of where you are.

When we’re talking about critical processes, where one oversight leads to serious calamity, this is how you’ve got to approach it - and bosses who devise such processes as a way to manage a hazard, have to make sure that workers are trained and both physically and mentally rehearsed in following them (it’s not enough just to tell someone or give them a written instruction, if death is one misstep away), that they have the memory and compliance aids which support the process and prevent oversights, and that they are being supported and monitored to ensure that the process is being followed and the training complied with.

When accidents do happen, it is almost invariably the case that bosses have done none of these things. It’s easy to say “you look upwards before you raise the tipper”, but if it has to happen every single time without fail in order to avoid death, then you start needing to train people in using checklists and following a site assessment procedure every time they want to raise the bloody thing. It’s far easier and more workable in the long run to just restrict people to tipping on familiar dedicated sites that have already been engineered and vetted to be inherently safe in respect of the hazard which “looking upwards” is designed to address.

In the meantime, the courts will say that if you haven’t gone through all that palava to have avoided the accident which caused death or injury, then you haven’t done what is reasonably practicable to avoid it - because when human life and limb is involved, almost anything that prevents it, no matter how costly or complex, is considered reasonably practicable. Bosses almost never get away (as they see it) with industrial accidents, because the fact of the accident happening and not having been prevented is (except for suicide) invariably a sign that not enough was done to prevent it. They don’t seem to see that oversights by workers are not an excuse - it is oversights which bosses have the responsibility to prevent turning into serious industrial accidents.

Stop At Barrier.
Do not cross when red lights flash.
Check Oil When Cold.
Turn lights on when dark.
Don’t drive into open pits.
Coffee is Hot.
Do not iron shirt while wearing it.
Do not stick your head in gas oven.
I could find loads more but do you really need a warning notice on everything?

Tipping trailer controls can be in the cab, on the neck of the trailer, at the side or rear or even on a wired or wireless remote.

Wheel Nut 3:
Stop At Barrier.
Do not cross when red lights flash.
Check Oil When Cold.
Turn lights on when dark.
Don’t drive into open pits.
Coffee is Hot.
Do not iron shirt while wearing it.
Do not stick your head in gas oven.
I could find loads more but do you really need a warning notice on everything?

Tipping trailer controls can be in the cab, on the neck of the trailer, at the side or rear or even on a wired or wireless remote.

Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.

What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Punchy Dan:
Iirc after this incident the firm had a sale of some type ,it was in commercial motor ,can’t remember the exact reasons stated ?

The trailer was in the sale I know who is using now too .

Everything was auctioned off, it was some of the cleanest second hand equipment you’ll come across too, outstanding fleet. I think it was retirement from memory.

albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.

What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Pearls before swine. Cutting to the chase, it’s not about being told every single step, it’s ensuring that critical steps are actually applied without fail - and no matter what you think, merely having been told that something is critical is not enough, and the law won’t stand for bosses who insist that it is enough (against all accumulated experience and expertise) and expect workers to make do, then wash their hands of the consequences that inevitably follow sooner or later.

As Henry’s Cat mentioned, when you’re working around power lines, a person is specifically given the job of looking for them, and then pointing them out again and again to everyone who will work near them. That is only a small but necessary part of an entire system of risk management when the stakes are so high and the calamity will arise suddenly, irrecoverably, and without further warning. There will also be other implicit constraints in place, such as ensuring that equipment operators are not working in an excessively disrupted or distracting or unpredictable environment, that they’re not being rushed and encouraged to let standards or attention drop, that they’re adequately trained and familiar with the equipment and the site and the task before they have to start operating at the margins of safety, and that they’re healthy and adequately rested and not overworked during any single shift or combination of them. There will be co-workers and managers around ready to challenge any situations where safety margins are being eroded by individual oversight, poor competence, momentary indiscipline, poor organisation, or unusual circumstances. There may be flags, markers, and overhead bells to ensure that workers can see and keep track of danger zones or realise that equipment which can move around is in an unsafe state for a particular area. And so on.

You don’t have a right to do business in the marketplace just because you think you can do away with all that and do the job for a tenth of the price. Before you even get to the second electrical accident that the firm in question has sustained, what you’ve got is a firm who aren’t based at either of the premises that they are serving and think they can dump crap at any roadside between jobs, regardless of whether the waste on that particular day was of a serious nature or inherently decomposable. It’s why we have to have rules.

Rjan:

albion:
Yes according to Rjan, and go through it step by step. I did skim read though, life really is too short.

What that tells me is that there is always something that you don’t think about, so it’s probably not worth being in business and secondly if you actually need to be told every single step of the bleeding obvious, then we really are pandering to the lowest common denominator.

As Henry’s Cat mentioned, when you’re working around power lines, a person is specifically given the job of looking for them, and then pointing them out again and again to everyone who will work near them. That is only a small but necessary part of an entire system of risk management when the stakes are so high and the calamity will arise suddenly, irrecoverably, and without further warning. There will also be other implicit constraints in place, such as ensuring that equipment operators are not working in an excessively disrupted or distracting or unpredictable environment, that they’re not being rushed and encouraged to let standards or attention drop, that they’re adequately trained and familiar with the equipment and the site and the task before they have to start operating at the margins of safety, and that they’re healthy and adequately rested and not overworked during any single shift or combination of them. There will be co-workers and managers around ready to challenge any situations where safety margins are being eroded by individual oversight, poor competence, momentary indiscipline, poor organisation, or unusual circumstances. There may be flags, markers, and overhead bells to ensure that workers can see and keep track of danger zones or realise that equipment which can move around is in an unsafe state for a particular area. And so on.

You don’t have a right to do business in the marketplace just because you think you can do away with all that and do the job for a tenth of the price. Before you even get to the second electrical accident that the firm in question has sustained, what you’ve got is a firm who aren’t based at either of the premises that they are serving and think they can dump crap at any roadside between jobs, regardless of whether the waste on that particular day was of a serious nature or inherently decomposable. It’s why we have to have rules.

I never said that as that never happens.

I work on the railways and as such we have a rather decent set up regarding hazards, especially as the work area is known. So part of the SSOW pack contains the hazard directory for the work mileage we have. The task brief identifies these hazards specific to our area of work, ie power lines, bridges, even badger sets. We don’t have a specific person looking out for the power lines it’s down to the machine operator and machine controller, but its a job the whole works team does anyway and the machine operator has the final say.

But, this case shows why we have all of this in place. 1 person, either through stupidity or not thinking, makes a mistake and everyone is tarred with the same brush, and stupid briefs and rules are implemented. As part of my job I may sometimes need to climb on the steel work to get the job done, for this I have been on a working/climbing at heights course, have a full fall arrest harness and have been doing it several years very safely. The site we are on has banned this because 1 moron on another site forgot to clip on and fell, so we are all banned from doing this. End result is the jobs taking longer as we are struggling to reach some parts and having to reset machines to reach, they’re now complaining that the jobs taking longer. Yet on another job run by the same firm in a different part of the country its ok to climb■■?

1 moron - case closed, next!