We’re having a debate at work about what our transport office are, and are not allowed to do. They have been issuing runs which will require exceeding 13 hours duty, or 9 hours driving, or both.
My understanding of the rules is that provided the driver has agreed to reduce his daily rest or to use his 10th hour driving then it is ok. But I thought that there were regulations that prohibit employers from making you use your 10th or reduce.
These runs are being issued to night drivers with an opt out in place.
I have already told the TO that if they issue me with one of these runs again I will take a day out, other guys have said the same thing. It would be nice if we could wave a regulation in their face and refuse the runs though.
It is the reason that transport staff are now called planners, they plan the weeks work using all the facilities at their disposal, this may include giving driver 1 a long run on Monday and driver 2 a long run on Thursday and using an agency driver on Saturday to cover a late delivery.
Not all planners can plan a ■■■■ up, but most of the good planners still have to put up with idiot drivers making up their own rules, instead of doing a days work for a days pay.
The drivers hours rules are there to give flexibility to drivers and planners.
Bu as Rog said “Don’t drive tired”
Just do not be surprised when you are sent for a company medical because you cannot drive for 10 hours
Wheel Nut:
It is the reason that transport staff are now called planners, they plan the weeks work using all the facilities at their disposal, this may include giving driver 1 a long run on Monday and driver 2 a long run on Thursday and using an agency driver on Saturday to cover a late delivery.
Ah well yes, but you are assuming that our runs are planned well in advance. Unfortunately we only find out from mid day what run we are doing that night.
Wheel Nut:
Not all planners can plan a ■■■■ up,
not all planners could even spell “■■■■ up”
Wheel Nut:
but most of the good planners still have to put up with idiot drivers making up their own rules, instead of doing a days work for a days pay.
well we are not making up our own rules but questioning whether what we are being asked to do is legit. We have no problem doing a fair days work but this job involves a bit of give and take. As time goes on our company seems to be giving less and taking more.
Wheel Nut:
The drivers hours rules are there to give flexibility to drivers and planners.
Yes but our understanding was that the 10th hour was to allow for unforeseen circumstances NOT to allow the company to place more work on the driver. Add to that the question about whether the company can force a driver to reduce daily rest by planning over 13 hours and you get my original post. We are being given as little as 2 hours notice that we are going to be working 14+ hours and we are getting a little bit ■■■■■■ off with it.
Wheel Nut:
Bu as Rog said “Don’t drive tired”
and “driver fatigue” is exactly what we are saying when we take DR in the cab.
Wheel Nut:
Just do not be surprised when you are sent for a company medical because you cannot drive for 10 hours
An example for you. I finish work at 0230 i get home and go to bed at 0400.
I wake up at 1100 and telephone the office. They tell me im on a 1800 start and a 14 hour run.
I will finish at 0800 the following morning having been awake for 23 hours.
Forgive me, but nobody in their right mind can claim to be fit to drive 44t after being awake for 23 hours.
Aitch64:
I finish work at 0230 i get home and go to bed at 0400.
That is your error - most go to bed a few hours after work (if home based) and then get up about 1 to 2 hours BEFORE starting work
You are planning your sleep and work time incorrectly because you work nights - you need to change sleep patterns so they mimic the way you would do it on a day shift
ROG:
That is your error - most go to bed a few hours after work (if home based) and then get up about 1 to 2 hours BEFORE starting work
You are planning your sleep and work time incorrectly because you work nights - you need to change sleep patterns so they mimic the way you would do it on a day shift
Nice idea but when our start times can be from 1400 to 2200 and we dont know until midday how the hell are we supposed to get any kind of sleep pattern ?
Aitch64:
our start times can be from 1400 to 2200 and we dont know until midday how the hell are we supposed to get any kind of sleep pattern ?
That is an serious issue which should be brought to the attention of the planners.
Ask THEM how they would suggest a driver gets enough rest for safe driving in this situation and to give you their answer in writing.
ROG:
That is an serious issue which should be brought to the attention of the planners.
Ask THEM how they would suggest a driver gets enough rest for safe driving in this situation and to give you their answer in writing.
This puts the onus on the planners to sort it out
We asked. We were told that our start times for the following day (not the run details) would be available to us when we finish the previous nights work. They then gave themselves a 2 hour window either side of the stated start time. Within a few weeks it became clear that the start times were rarely if ever accurate so we are back to square one.
There are other issues slightly more complicated than i am prepared to go into on a public forum but we are seriously considering a work to rule ballot and a blanket refusal to exceed 13 hours duty or 9 hours diving
I dont actually know but given their recent history of ignoring agreements im not sure it would make much difference.
Just to recap tho
Planning runs over 13 hours duty without driver agreement is legal ?
Planning runs over 9 hours driving without driver agreement is legal ?
Giving these runs out with only a few hours notice is legal ?
Ive been doing this job for 20 years and i’ve never felt more militant than i do now
Aitch64:
Just to recap tho
Planning runs over 13 hours duty without driver agreement is legal ?
Planning runs over 9 hours driving without driver agreement is legal ?
Giving these runs out with only a few hours notice is legal ?
Yes, yes and yes.
As long as they’re within the driver’s hours rules and within your terms of employment, then it’s legal. There are plenty of people who don’t even get hours notice of such things as they find out when they get to work of a morning to start the shift, but that’s still perfectly legal.
Aitch64:
An example for you. I finish work at 0230 i get home and go to bed at 0400. I wake up at 1100 and telephone the office. They tell me im on a 1800 start and a 14 hour run. I will finish at 0800 the following morning having been awake for 23 hours.
Forgive me, but nobody in their right mind can claim to be fit to drive 44t after being awake for 23 hours.
1100 to 0800 the next day is actually 21 hrs not 23? Unless there are suddenly 26hrs in a day?
Anyway…be thankful that you get some advance warning of your next days work…I know what time i am starting tomorrow…but i have no idea when i will finish…or even if i will get back to base…
I am not being stroppy with you , you asked a question and I saw it and answered it. However, what does it say on your contract?
I worked on airfreight as relief with DHL and had a different run every week, sometimes every night. I never had the same start time but we were given a run sheet. my shifts started at anytime between 8pm and 01.30, with a lunchtime start on every second Monday
I agree sleep patterns are disturbed but you have to learn to reverse your day, breakfast before you go to work, dinner when you come home. You either like working nights or you hate them.
Can’t the planners just send you a text, eyup Aitch, can you be in for 10.30 tonight you are off to xxxx with A123. That way you can get a proper sleep and a life
I’ve just come back from having a talk with a mate of mine who works perm nights for Walkers crisps.
His start time can be anything between 8pm to midnight.
He does this - finishes night shift and informs traffic office of his wake up time which is usually about 10 hours from the end of his shift.
He goes home (only lives 10 mins from Walkers ) has dinner, relaxes for a couple of hours and then. just before going to bed, he swiches his mobile to silent and the house phone to answering machine on silent ring.
When he gets up he has breakfast and then checks his phones and then depending on any messages, decides what to do to kill a bit of time which could be a few hours but is usually about 2 max.
By informing the planners of the time you will be available and no chance of them disturbing you leaves them with any headaches and the driver with plenty of rest.
“The company reserves the right to reasonably amend or alter working patterns and hours of work to meet customer and business requirements by giving you a reasonable period of notice in writing”
Thats it
Wheel Nut:
I agree sleep patterns are disturbed but you have to learn to reverse your day, breakfast before you go to work, dinner when you come home. You either like working nights or you hate them.
I like working nights, tbh i prefer it to working days, less traffic and less BS from the TO as well. However there has to be a work/life balance. We used to start between 1400 and 1700 and finish between 0000 and 0500. And we knew what we were doing the following day. Now we start between 1430 and 2200 and finish at any time up to 0900. And we no longer know what we will be doing the following day.
The day drivers however know what they are doing 3 days in advance.
We cannot make any kind of plans for our home life because we dont know when we wake up when we are working or for how long.
I understand that different firms have different working practices, ive working in enough different areas of the industry to know that, but the changes they have made to our working environment and the difference in the treatment of day and night drivers is causing a great deal of bad feeling and resentment.
If we cant wave legislation in their face to get things changed then maybe more direct action will be our only option. We’ve tried asking nicely. We’ve pointed out the fact that day drivers are getting treated far better than night drivers. Nothing has changed
My original question has, however, been answered, many thanks.
My place is going the same way, longer hours/more drops! multidropping all over SE, can be upto 15 drops in a 18t you get told the night before what run youve got and start time, if it s over 13 hrs the driver can say hes tired and needs a 11hr rest, company cant force you to drive tired.
Could upset the TM but hey ho!
I m not gonna fall asleep at the wheel just so they can hit their targets!
Aitch64:
An example for you. I finish work at 0230 i get home and go to bed at 0400.
I wake up at 1100 and telephone the office. They tell me im on a 1800 start and a 14 hour run.
I will finish at 0800 the following morning having been awake for 23 hours.
Aitch64:
Just to recap tho
Planning runs over 13 hours duty without driver agreement is legal ?
Planning runs over 9 hours driving without driver agreement is legal ?
Giving these runs out with only a few hours notice is legal ?
Yes, yes and yes.
As long as they’re within the driver’s hours rules and within your terms of employment, then it’s legal.
Paul
Agreed if you are then going to go over the legal hours you have a night/day out.
Simples.
if you are ringing your office (or they are ringing you) during your daily rest this is effectively, in the letter of the law, other work, as you are obviously enquiring/being informed of what your jobs are so you are not complying with the daily rest requirements.
this is purely my personal opinion but i see it as this. you are paid to drive, they are paid to plan, let them plan and you drive, when you finish yor night shift ask them what start time they want you in if they say abourt 2000ish tonight turn up about 2058. as soon as they realise they need to plan a little better then they will (hopefully) get thier arses into gear and sort it out. ask them for a start time, if they dont give you one take an 11 hour break and go in and start your tacho as soon as you go in. tehy will soon learn that people need notice for work.
its not hard is it to plan jobs and get it sorted. it also makes a happier work force when they know what they are doing.
, you asked a question and I saw it and answered it. However, what does it say on your contract?