He’s talking about Slam Transport in Coventry. They’re advertising currently £40-50k. Colin_Scottish mentioned he’d worked for them previously and you had to be ltd co. He said he was invoicing them £1300+ a week.
Keep seeing posts about HMRC self-employment “rules” whenever the subject of being paid through your own Limited company (or an umbrella company) crops up. Self employment is not the same thing at all, so logically the rules regarding what does/does not constitute self-employment simply do not apply.
[tin hat firmly strapped on at a jaunty angle…]
I have been doing Ltd for 6 years now on agency, I haven’t had a problem. Think if you pay everything on time they leave you alone.
I employ a decent accountant of a large firm, who reckon its totally legal & above board (though I will be sweating if I have a spot check after reading what is said on trucknet)
Though I think its daft that if you do some work direct for a company you carn’t be self employed, but if you work through a agency its ok. Or have I missed something 
albion:
http://transportoperator.co.uk/2016/05/13/hmrc-fires-warning-shot-on-self-employed-drivers/Broadly, someone is self-employed if they are in business on their own account and bear the responsibility for the success or failure of that business. They will be employed if they personally work under the control of their engager, and do not run the risks of having a business themselves…
“We are finding evidence that haulage companies are sold the idea that they can set up, or have an agent set up companies for their workers and avoid tax.
“The companies and the workers appear to be unaware that there is legislation that may apply and allows HMRC to pursue workers, agents and the companies themselves. They could face investigation and significant tax bills. We think some companies are told, wrongly, that anti-avoidance legislation does not apply.I’ve been to seminars where transport lawyers and HMRC reps have been present, talking about this subject. In simple terms, do you have your own truck or not? If you do, you are self-employed. If you don’t, you aren’t.
That’s rubbish.
If that’s the case how come captains of super tankers or pilots of airlines don’t own their own ships/planes then, since a lot are either working for crewing agencies or themselves?
The issue is much more complex and complicated by the phrase ‘self-employed’. Self employed to me means a sole trader but in some quarters it is taken as working for yourself even if that is your own company.
What HMRC are concerned about is people not paying tax and now claiming expenses they are not entitled to. If you work for your own company and it pays your NI and Tax then that is half the battle. But in the circumstances shown in the OP working ‘solely’ for one organisation is unlikely to pass the IR35 test. And that is the thing that matters.
So to the OP contact QDoS/Contract Calculator (see websites) as the majority on here don’t have a clue what they are on about tbh in regards to this. It is a very complex area and HMRC are clamping down on workers using third party means to only work for one company. Try QDoS and get proper advice.
As I said before, that is what is said at seminars that I’ve been to where the speakers have been the HMRC, transport lawyers and the RHA. So it isn’t my opinion, or my conclusion.
I have no idea why captains don’t own oil tankers or captains don’t own Boeing 747s, though a few things immediately come to mind. But I’ve not read or listened to anything about those, so it would only be conjecture.
rha.uk.net/news/press-relea … oyment-tax
Various ploys are being used by which lorry drivers are said to be “self-employed”. That is fine for genuine owner-drivers, who have their own operating licence and haulage business – but anyone driving a lorry for another company cannot be self-employed.
Another question appears to be the amount of control you have. In relation to the OPs question, I suspect the answer to the question below, ’ Can the driver assign work to someone else?’ is no - and it’s most likely to be no for agency drivers as well.
locateadriver.co.uk/news/hm … -employed/
The HMRC has a simple questionnaire on their website to determine the employment status of an emplyee, tools.hmrc.gov.uk/esi/screen/ESI … user=guest
With drivers in general, one of the main questions:
Can the worker assign the work to someone else?
More often than not the answer to this is going to be no, if you are working for a Driving Agency and they contact with work , you do not have the ability to give that work to someone else and will come under the direction and control of the client when on site. You are probably not able to choose the hours of work and are not providing any material as such to ensure the work is completed.
I’m not an expert, but I do have some clue and I’m happy to discuss it with anyone that wants to be polite. And my advice was that he ring HMRC direct - which is ‘proper advice’.
elsa Lad:
I have been doing Ltd for 6 years now on agency, I haven’t had a problem. Think if you pay everything on time they leave you alone.
I employ a decent accountant of a large firm, who reckon its totally legal & above board (though I will be sweating if I have a spot check after reading what is said on trucknet)Though I think its daft that if you do some work direct for a company you carn’t be self employed, but if you work through a agency its ok. Or have I missed something
I think it really depends on the working relationship with the company you’re doing business with.
Can you refuse a job?
Can you get work through another company?
There are other tests, but basically if what you do looks like an employed job then HMRC will consider you should be PAYE.
But I think they’ve been trying to put the frighteners on the Haulage industry, by saying that you can’t be self employed or Ltd Company unless you have your own truck and O’licence, but this is because of companies, including agencies, trying to get round their responsibilities as employers by encouraging, bribing or even forcing their workers to go ltd company, when by, any reasonable test, it would be obvious they are employees of that company.
As Sand Fisher says there are plenty of other people who are self employed who work on a similar principle. One I can think of is most DCPC trainers I’ve met, they don’t own or rent the building where they do their courses, they don’t produce the handouts or the course syllabus, they don’t advertise or book up the candidates onto the course, they are just contracted to come in and run the course.
albion:
Will_161:
Just to clarify too, it’s direct through a company, not an agency.This is what I’m struggling to understand, surely if a company is advertising for drivers, you are employed by them and should be on PAYE, but I’ve heard everyone is Limited Co.
You could ring HMRC yourself and ask about the legal position. HMRC may be interested, though they seem to turn a blind eye often enough.
Aye,
until it’s time to pursue a nice BIG backdated tax avoidance bill.[emoji52]
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albion:
As I said before, that is what is said at seminars that I’ve been to where the speakers have been the HMRC, transport lawyers and the RHA. So it isn’t my opinion, or my conclusion.rha.uk.net/news/press-relea … oyment-tax
Various ploys are being used by which lorry drivers are said to be “self-employed”. That is fine for genuine owner-drivers, who have their own operating licence and haulage business – but anyone driving a lorry for another company cannot be self-employed.
The RHA seemed to have changed the statement from the HMRC from this, from it’s rare, so not impossible just unlikely, to cannot
Last year, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) advised the Road Haulage Association (RHA) that it is rare in road haulage for someone to be genuinely self-employed, unless they are an owner-driver.
albion:
With drivers in general, one of the main questions:Can the worker assign the work to someone else?
More often than not the answer to this is going to be no, if you are working for a Driving Agency and they contact with work , you do not have the ability to give that work to someone else and will come under the direction and control of the client when on site. You are probably not able to choose the hours of work and are not providing any material as such to ensure the work is completed[/i].
Even being able to subsitute the work might not stand up in court.
https://www.doddaccountants.co.uk/news/hit-the-road-jack-hmrc-win-case-on-self-employed-lorry-drivers/
Interestingly, (but still not enough to convince the Tribunal), a driver who accepted Mr Dhillon’s offer of a delivery job could substitute his services for those of another driver (as long as the second driver was “okayed” by Mr Dhillon’s customer). If this happened Mr Dhillon would pay the original driver the agreed fixed fee and the original driver would then pay his substitute by personal agreement between themselves.
It seems you need evidence you are operating your own company, either as ltd or sole trader, and you have a business to business relationship with the company you are working for.
Overall, it was held that there was no evidence that the drivers were running their own businesses (with the risk, rewards and trappings associated with that); that the terms the drivers chose to accept (or not) were non-negotiable; and that Mr Dhillon was clearly “the boss” in the relationship (with a traditional master/servant employer/employee relationship). The Tribunal concluded that the drivers were essentially employed ‘day labourers’ and HMRC won the case.
The case was clearly fact specific (and not all engagements will have these facts) and it may be appealed so ultimately the decision in HMRC’s favour may be overturned. But employment status is a very grey area and one which is lucrative for HMRC
Final bit of advice from the article.
But if the ESI tool concludes that the engagements you are reviewing are self employed (not employed) it can be printed off and keep as contemporaneous evidence that you have treated the engagement correctly which will be vital in a dispute with HMRC.
So it’s crystal clear muckles 
. The grey areas and interpretations mean that HMRC will view things how they want to!
albion:
So it’s crystal clear muckles
It does muddy the waters somewhat, including those working for agencies, where drivers can refuse a job, but like I said before it’s down to the relationship with the person you are providing your work to.
It seems that the Tribunal decided that although the workers could turn work down and had an ability to offer a substitute. There was a lot of supervision by the company and control by the company and their terms and rates of pay weren’t negotiable.
However this was only a tribunal decision and could have been challenged and still could be challenged if a company has a similar case go against them.
albion:
Another question appears to be the amount of control you have. In relation to the OPs question, I suspect the answer to the question below, ’ Can the driver assign work to someone else?’ is no - and it’s most likely to be no for agency drivers as well.
I do know of one agency where it is actually done properly, the one I’m currently at Prestige Recruitment in Hull. The agency I work for does self employed as well as PAYE. The hourly rate they pay self employed is enough that it covers holiday pay and employers NI and isn’t just an extra quid an hour over PAYE. Also I know of a few drivers who are self employed with the agency and they can and do send in other drivers in place of them to the bookings. Two of the drivers even run their own “agency” and they’ll have a couple of the drivers on their books going in via my agency as well as themselves, they’ll bill the agency for those drivers hours and then pay them directly.
Sand Fisher:
albion:
http://transportoperator.co.uk/2016/05/13/hmrc-fires-warning-shot-on-self-employed-drivers/Broadly, someone is self-employed if they are in business on their own account and bear the responsibility for the success or failure of that business. They will be employed if they personally work under the control of their engager, and do not run the risks of having a business themselves…
“We are finding evidence that haulage companies are sold the idea that they can set up, or have an agent set up companies for their workers and avoid tax.
“The companies and the workers appear to be unaware that there is legislation that may apply and allows HMRC to pursue workers, agents and the companies themselves. They could face investigation and significant tax bills. We think some companies are told, wrongly, that anti-avoidance legislation does not apply.I’ve been to seminars where transport lawyers and HMRC reps have been present, talking about this subject. In simple terms, do you have your own truck or not? If you do, you are self-employed. If you don’t, you aren’t.
That’s rubbish.
If that’s the case how come captains of super tankers or pilots of airlines don’t own their own ships/planes then, since a lot are either working for crewing agencies or themselves?
.
Albion is correct, you need to own your own truck to be classed as self employed working for an agency.
Captains of ships and airline pilots are classed differently as they cant fly/sail the thing themselves, they have to have a crew working along side them…
Sand Fisher:
If that’s the case how come captains of super tankers or pilots of airlines don’t own their own ships/planes then, since a lot are either working for crewing agencies or themselves?
Supertanker and passenger liner captains have never traditionally been self-employed in law, and as for the airline pilots, you mean those guys that got stung with a tax investigation recently?
albion:
So it’s crystal clear muckles
Correct!
I am a director of a company and we have people on contract. One is on contract to various logistics firms. I have researched this in depth, HMRC are out for what they can get and the best advice is go to QDoS. They are very good. Going to HMRC is like going to the judge and jury!!
What the OP was alluding to sounded to me highly dodgy. The sort of thing HMRC are trying to clamp down on. If the OP had on his own initiative approached the firm, that potentially is different. But the rules on this are complex and are still being tested in the courts.
Your post about ‘can’t set their hours’, is true. But can a surgeon say ok, gotta go we’ll leave the patient opened up and come back tomorrow? Of course they can’t. So that argument is not true. In essence the hours you can work are governed by law. Also regarding the question of control, HMRC argue it both ways so no good going to them!!
Article in CM this week about this very issue. Only 1 column, easy read at services.
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Just to bring this thread back up.
The job was with the company mentioned and I did take it.
But I joined as PAYE, apparently the earnings are higher as LTD Co, but I didn’t want to risk doing something dodgy.
Will_161:
Just to bring this thread back up.The job was with the company mentioned and I did take it.
But I joined as PAYE, apparently the earnings are higher as LTD Co, but I didn’t want to risk doing something dodgy.
Good on you
Will_161:
Just to bring this thread back up.The job was with the company mentioned and I did take it.
But I joined as PAYE, apparently the earnings are higher as LTD Co, but I didn’t want to risk doing something dodgy.
This way you got no worries looking over shoulder for HMRC!!!
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Big Truck:
Will_161:
Just to bring this thread back up.The job was with the company mentioned and I did take it.
But I joined as PAYE, apparently the earnings are higher as LTD Co, but I didn’t want to risk doing something dodgy.This way you got no worries looking over shoulder for HMRC!!!
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That was my thinking, it’s not worth it in my eyes. That’s not to say other people are more than willing to do it though.
Will_161:
Big Truck:
Will_161:
Just to bring this thread back up.The job was with the company mentioned and I did take it.
But I joined as PAYE, apparently the earnings are higher as LTD Co, but I didn’t want to risk doing something dodgy.This way you got no worries looking over shoulder for HMRC!!!
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That was my thinking, it’s not worth it in my eyes. That’s not to say other people are more than willing to do it though.
[emoji106]
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