LGV Training Schools, EU regs and Tachographs

[instructorone]

Coffeeholic:

instructorone:
I pm’d the Vosa guy on here to offer his input…but i dont think my pm’s get through to him,

He may not have been online since you sent the PM, he isn’t a frequent visitor. If it is still in your outbox he hasn’t been on the boards.

instructorone:
i also pm’d an admin with the offer of naming the source…but again, either didn’t get delivered, or was ignored…i wonder why?

Probably because the naming of the source adds nothing to the debate, in fact it is irrelevant. We have had supposedly very qualified people give incorrect information on here in the past, traffic police officers, VOSA people, tacho analysis people, training people with long lists of qualifications after their names, and it has been proved that the information which they swore blind was correct turned out to be wrong.

All you need is a link to the part of the regulations which your source is using to back up his argument, as ROG has already said, not the source just the link.

There have been plenty of quotes from the regulations already posted in this thread which support the opposing argument to yours, I mean the relevant ones from the tacho rules and not the irrelevant ones from the WTD regs - you know who you are - but nothing which goes along with your theory so far. I wonder why?

I AM quoting the regulations that are posted…and it comes down to whether you are in active employment. If you are working, and your boss sends you for a refresher course, you have to record it.

But if you are not working, and have no job on the horizon, you do not have to have the tacho in place because you are not doing any work for carriage of goods and reward, which is the relevent exemption here.

And coffeeholic… didn’t realise it stayed in outbox if the person was offline. oops.

As for the naming of the source, i would happily give that person the name, and number for the source…but as been pointed out in here already, 1 says 1 thing, another says another…they really should all sing from the same hymm sheet. This is a really good debate.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:
from the WTD regs - you know who you are - but nothing which goes along with your theory so far. I wonder why?

that would be me then

[tachograph]

I’m not really sure who’s right on this but would like to put the argument that instructorone is failing to put

Instead of talking about quotes and not really quoting anything of any real relevance lets use quotes from the regulations because that’s my sauce and I’m happy to show my sauce without any PMs being sent

REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006

Article 1

This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.

Article 2

1. This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
   (a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the
   vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
   3,5 tonnes,

So if a driver does no other driving during the week is he subject to regulation 561/2006 for a refresher drive if the vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods ?

[mike-c]

Source not ‘sauce’.

[tachograph]

Mike-C:
Source not ‘sauce’.

[instructorone]

tachograph:
I’m not really sure who’s right on this but would like to put the argument that instructorone is failing to put

Instead of talking about quotes and not really quoting anything of any real relevance lets use quotes from the regulations because that’s my sauce and I’m happy to show my sauce without any PMs being sent

REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006

Article 1

This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.

Article 2

1. This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
   (a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the
   vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
   3,5 tonnes,

So if a driver does no other driving during the week is he subject to regulation 561/2006 for a refresher drive if the vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods ?

…and is downgraded and privately taxed as a training vehicle?

[coffeeholic]

tachograph:
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006

Article 1

This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.

Article 2

1. This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
   (a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the
   vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
   3,5 tonnes,

There you go, no need for emails or phone calls to VOSA, it’s all right there in the regulations as clear as can be.

tachograph:
So if a driver does no other driving during the week is he subject to regulation 561/2006 for a refresher drive if the vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods ?

I would say he isn’t. The vehicle doesn’t come under the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours and if the driver doesn’t do anything else in that fixed week which does come within scope he has no requirement to keep records.

[coffeeholic]

instructorone:
I AM quoting the regulations that are posted…and it comes down to whether you are in active employment. If you are working, and your boss sends you for a refresher course, you have to record it.

I don’t believe it comes down to whether you are in active employment but whether you do anything else which comes within the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours in that week.

An employed driver could have Monday to Thursday on holiday, take a refresher course in a training school vehicle on the Friday and not work the Saturday or Sunday. The training vehicle isn’t in scope and the driver has done no in scope work in the week so no need for a record to be kept.

If an employed driver who usually drove an artic under EU regulations spent a week driving a transit van instead, he would not need to complete records for that week. If he drove the artic for one day and the van for 4 he would need to complete records for the 4 van days.

If he did no work in the artic in the week except drive the training school vehicle for a refresher course no records required. If he drove the artic for 4 days and did the refresher course on the other day a record would be required for the training day.

[instructorone]

If he did no work in the artic in the week except drive the training school vehicle for a refresher course no records required.

If he is employed, did he do other work in that week? If he did, he would need to keep records…

If he drove the artic for 4 days and did the refresher course on the other day a record would be required for the training day.
[/quote]

and a manual record would suffice as is included in the 28 days record keeping. and thats what MMTM…

[tachograph]

instructorone:

If he did no work in the artic in the week except drive the training school vehicle for a refresher course no records required.

If he is employed, did he do other work in that week? If he did, he would need to keep records…

Why ?

If the work was not in-scope of regulation 561/2006 then he would not need to keep records to comply with regulation 561/2006.

Weather or not the driver is employed is irrelevant to that particular scenario it’s the type of work that counts.

[tachograph]

And just to add to this debate, whilst the driver may not be subject to regulation (EC) 561/2006, I think if the driver was being paid by an employer to do the refresher course he would probably come under domestic regulations regardless of weather or not the vehicle was ever used for the carriage of goods, as the “1968 transport act” describes a relevant goods vehicle as a vehicle “constructed or adapted to carry goods” and there doesn’t seem to be an exemption under the domestic rules.

So if you were being paid by your employer to do the refresher driving course I believe you would need to keep a record on a weekly record sheet, or as an alternative to the weekly record sheet you may use an EU-approved and sealed tachograph in which case “all rules on the fitment and use of the tachograph must be complied with”.

Having said that if a training vehicles doesn’t need an operators license then no records need to be kept, so do you need an operators license for a training only vehicle I believe you do.

[dieseldave]

tachograph:
Having said that if a training vehicles doesn’t need an operators license then no records need to be kept, so do you need an operators license for a training only vehicle I believe you do.

Hi tachograph, this is an interesting debate…

A normal training school vehicle doesn’t need an ‘O’ licence.

[tachograph]

dieseldave:

tachograph:
Having said that if a training vehicles doesn’t need an operators license then no records need to be kept, so do you need an operators license for a training only vehicle I believe you do.

Hi tachograph, this is an interesting debate…

A normal training school vehicle doesn’t need an ‘O’ licence.

Thanks for that

In that case it looks like no records need to be kept for domestic rules either

> > > Page 25 < < <

[rog]

Coffeeholic:

tachograph:
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006

Article 1

This Regulation lays down rules on driving times, breaks and
rest periods for drivers engaged in the carriage of goods and
passengers by road in order to harmonise the conditions of
competition between modes of inland transport, especially
with regard to the road sector, and to improve working
conditions and road safety. This Regulation also aims to
promote improved monitoring and enforcement practices by
Member States and improved working practices in the road
transport industry.

Article 2

1. This Regulation shall apply to the carriage by road:
   (a) of goods where the maximum permissible mass of the
   vehicle, including any trailer, or semi-trailer, exceeds
   3,5 tonnes,

There you go, no need for emails or phone calls to VOSA, it’s all right there in the regulations as clear as can be.

tachograph:
So if a driver does no other driving during the week is he subject to regulation 561/2006 for a refresher drive if the vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods ?

I would say he isn’t. The vehicle doesn’t come under the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours and if the driver doesn’t do anything else in that fixed week which does come within scope he has no requirement to keep records.

If this is correct then why does the driver of a private horsebox over 7.5 tonnes need to use a tachograph and have to comply with the EU driver rest regulations

VOSA have always said that every vehicle over 7.5 tonnes requires the driver to use a tachograph unless there is an exception and the using of that tachograph brings them within the scope of the EU regs.
The tachograph used when under EU regs must be compliant.

It will be interesting to see if the rule imposed on using tachos for all private LGVs over 7.5 tonnes is now viewed differently… when they are empty - no goods/horses etc
If it is then I could hire an 18 tonner for the purpose of moving house from the UK to Spain and drive it without the tacho being used for the return journey when it is empty

In reading article 1 it says about competition and using an 18 tonner for private use is not competition if transporting own private stuff or horses so why do VOSA say that a tacho must be used

This gets more interesting…

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
If this is correct then why does the driver of a private horsebox over 7.5 tonnes need to use a tachograph and have to comply with the EU driver rest regulations

VOSA have always said that every vehicle over 7.5 tonnes requires the driver to use a tachograph unless there is an exception…

And there is an exemption for training vehicles so that’s clear why.

ROG:
It will be interesting to see if the rule imposed on using tachos for all private LGVs over 7.5 tonnes is now viewed differently… when they are empty - no goods/horses etc
If it is then I could hire an 18 tonner for the purpose of moving house from the UK to Spain and drive it without the tacho being used for the return journey when it is empty

It’s about whether the vehicle and or driver is in scope or not rather than the empty bit. The empty bit only comes into play when a company vehicle is being used for a new licence holder. When I said - “There you go, no need for emails or phone calls to VOSA, it’s all right there in the regulations as clear as can be.” - I didn’t mean it was actually in the bit that was quoted, just that it was in the regulations as clear as day. I just re-quoted that bit in my reply to confuse you, and it worked.

ROG:
In reading article 1 it says about competition and using an 18 tonner for private use is not competition if transporting own private stuff or horses so why do VOSA say that a tacho must be used

Because their exemption was removed in April 2007 whereas the training vehicle one remained.

ROG:
This gets more interesting…

Not really, it’s clearly done and dusted. Time to move on to the next simple question which can be answered by reading the regulations but will run to several pages because the reading bit will be ignored and loads of stuff will be quoted which has no relevance because it comes from a different section of the regulations, or even different regulations.

[coffeeholic]

instructorone:

If he did no work in the artic in the week except drive the training school vehicle for a refresher course no records required.

If he is employed, did he do other work in that week? If he did, he would need to keep records.

Not if he drove a van or did other work which does not fall under the scope of the regulations. You are only required to keep records in a week in which you actually work under EU Drivers’ Hours Regulations.

If I go into work this week and drive a van every day instead of the normal artic there would be no need for me to complete tacho records.

[rog]

ROG:
If this is correct then why does the driver of a private horsebox over 7.5 tonnes need to use a tachograph and have to comply with the EU driver rest regulations

VOSA have always said that every vehicle over 7.5 tonnes requires the driver to use a tachograph unless there is an exception…

Coffeeholic:
And there is an exemption for training vehicles so that’s clear why.

AH - I think I was getting confused - again

So basically all that has been posted about goods etc has no bearing on the issue and the only bit that matters is the exemption for training vehicles in relation to licence aquisition or JAUPT/DSA approved Driver CPC courses
Refresher training on such vehicles by a full licence holder would therefore not be exempt

I was starting to question the info VOSA gave me until I read this -

FROM HERE:
This guide provides advice to drivers and operators of goods vehicles, whether used privately
or commercially.

[tachograph]

ROG:

Coffeeholic:

tachograph:
So if a driver does no other driving during the week is he subject to regulation 561/2006 for a refresher drive if the vehicle is never used for the carriage of goods ?

I would say he isn’t. The vehicle doesn’t come under the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours and if the driver doesn’t do anything else in that fixed week which does come within scope he has no requirement to keep records.

If this is correct then why does the driver of a private horsebox over 7.5 tonnes need to use a tachograph and have to comply with the EU driver rest regulations

Because a horse is “goods” and a vehicle that normally carries goods comes in-scope of EU regulations.

ROG:
VOSA have always said that every vehicle over 7.5 tonnes requires the driver to use a tachograph unless there is an exception and the using of that tachograph brings them within the scope of the EU regs.
The tachograph used when under EU regs must be compliant.

Please quote from the regulations where it says that a vehicle never used to carry goods comes in-scope of EU regulations.

VOSAs own guide says that when driving to domestic regulations you may as an alternative to using a weekly record sheet use a tachograph so how does this bring you in-scope of EU regulations

I’ll quote from VOSAs guide page 9.

~snip~ Vehicle operations that take place off the public road or vehicles that are never used to carry goods on a public road are out of scope. Additionally drivers who never carry goods or passengers in the course of their employment are not considered to be within scope of the regulations. This covers operations such as the delivery and recovery of hire vehicles and empty vehicles taken for annual test.

ROG:
It will be interesting to see if the rule imposed on using tachos for all private LGVs over 7.5 tonnes is now viewed differently… when they are empty - no goods/horses etc

Weather or not they’re empty isn’t relevant if they normally carry goods (Article 4 (a) - 561/2006).

ROG:
If it is then I could hire an 18 tonner for the purpose of moving house from the UK to Spain and drive it without the tacho being used for the return journey when it is empty

No you couldn’t as part of the journey is clearly to carry goods therefore the vehicle comes in-scope of EU regulations.

ROG:
In reading article 1 it says about competition and using an 18 tonner for private use is not competition if transporting own private stuff or horses so why do VOSA say that a tacho must be used

Article 1 of what ? I can’t find the part you’re referring to

But anyway we’re back to the vehicle normally carrying goods, the EU regulations make no distinction between privately owned goods or goods carried for reward.

ROG:
This gets more interesting…

And time consuming

[rog]

tachograph:
But anyway we’re back to the vehicle normally carrying goods, the EU regulations make no distinction between privately owned goods or goods carried for reward.

So it looks like another call to VOSA for an explanation IMO

ADD - E-mail sent in regard to the ‘carrying of goods’ (articles 1 & 2) to the VOSA chap who sent me the posted reply earlier in this thread

[tachograph]

ROG:

tachograph:
But anyway we’re back to the vehicle normally carrying goods, the EU regulations make no distinction between privately owned goods or goods carried for reward.

So it looks like another call to VOSA for an explanation IMO

It will be interesting to know what they say.

Anyway I have work to do in the garden which is definitely not in-scope of EU regulations so let us know what VOSA say