Leyland Marathon...The "Nearly" Truck of The 1970s?

Staying off topic with MAN’s for a mo.

Those weak engined MAN’s, i drove several F90’s on a fleet that all covered well in excess of 1m kms, all Eaton Twin Split gearboxes and we never heard of a single engine or gearbox failure despite being driven at night on the limiter, @ 71, or sometimes considerably more if the outer throttle cable was adjusted slightly :wink: , and at more reasonable speeds (traffic) during the day 7 days and nights a week by the usual mix of decent drivers and incompetents, and all of us played a tune on the gearboxes till we finally got the hang of them the incomps permanently, but those vehicles simply refused to break.
Breakdowns were unheard of.
ETS coupled to that MAN was IMHO one of the best ETS fitments of the period, the MAN was a high revving engine but (possibly light flywheel?) the revs would drop very quickly allowing the Eaton to do its best very well, the clutch brake button worked spot on too, our workshops kept everything tickety boo.

I’d driven a lot of miles in the previous, F8? cabbed vehicles, in 232 form with column change and in 331 form which whilst not having the high speed gearing of the F90 332, was a far more powerful engine in use and they’d still do 80+, the difference in use being the 331 would be doing 50mph at the top of one particular hill from a tight roundabout whilst the 332 could barely top 40mph on the same hill same load.
Where MAN cost though was in spare parts, one of our regulars (walking disaster zone) would rip a tractor rear mudflap off near enough once a month, which usually scrapped the mudwing, the difference being a genuine MAN part cost around £200 a time where a Winguard was about £35 according to my mate in the workshop.

I’ve always thought MAN’s to be decent working vehicles, the new range not a patch on the tough simple built to last nature of the previous models though thats a common theme in all vehicles ranging from cars to lorries, the square cabbed stuff are still decent enough, my present one has been as reliable as any vehicle of several makes in the yard and better than most, but they are best issued to a driver or two who actually know how to drive and care.

MAN’s seem to be a bit too fragile for general fleet work, both inside and outside the (too flimsy and dotted with brittle plastic trims and switchgear) cabs, where clumsy and uncaring twerps can do a lot of expensive damage that a Scania for example would simply shrugg off.

I will miss mine when it goes back, its good on fuel and goes better than one might imagine, not because its a bigger or uprated engine but because i drive it in manual and the engine definately gives more if you make it work properly and allow it to lug, where the Arsetronic box is too keen to change down if you drive in auto.
I won’t miss the too low geared steering mind, which allows the vehicle to be seriously affected by undulating roads, making minor A road driving too hairy for comfort, i don’t recall this being the case with the old models which went where you pointed them.
The dealer has been very good, full R&M, they’ve looked after mine better maybe than others, but i’ve always tried to present it washed and with the chassis fully steam cleaned and with accurate descriptions of any faults.

I regard those 80’s MAN’s as one of the very last lorry driver’s lorries, but maybe that applied to lots of other makes too, simpler times?

gingerfold:
There is a (false) perception from some people that everything European was and is fantastic, and everything British was rubbish. There was, and is, good and bad points about every truck marque of the 1970s, even Scania and Volvo had their problems. And believe me as someone still involved in the day to day running of them they still give problems. The trouble-free truck has still to be made.

To be fair there are arguably 4 different inter related points in all this.

Firstly the Marathon specifically was a primitive retrograde step for Leyland by the standards of the day.Originating more out of desperation,because the T45 was too late on the scene,than anything really good about it and certainly no match for the DAF 2800.

As for the Brits v imports there were numerous second to none Brit products around. With the ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination being relatively bullet proof and able to perform at least as well,if not better,than any of the foreign competition.

While to be fair maybe MAN’s reputation has possibly taken a justified hit in terms of its more recent products.But ironically the F8 and F90 series certainly don’t fit into that being two examples of the best of the imports in their day.

But again still an expensive over rated option v the domestic choices regardless.With the SA 400/401 or Bedford TM,for two examples and possibly even the T45,with the right cab spec,being all the truck anyone really needed. :bulb:

railstaff:
God,when you take a look at the above brochure what a tool these should have been.Cab comfort left the Euros for dead.Very nearly a flat floor unlike the 88,s.The TL12 gave a very good account of itself plus the nine speed.Only minus for me would be that dreaded hub reduction backend.Seem to remember it gave plenty of headache with the anulus ring gear dropping off after a couple of years.

This fault persisted for many years. ISTR welding many Blue Circle Scammell S26 annulus ring gears to the carrier in the mid 1990s, although going back 10 years from then I don’t recall any Tarmac Constructor 8s with the fault; they just blew up the third diff although not as frequently as the Constructor 6 did. Until the modified locking tab came out all of them used to back off the bearing locknut because the washer was too flimsy and the ear would break off as the bearings settled.

Daft as it is,when Daf done what ever they did to Leyland, they cured it by fitting a simple huge circlip to the ring gear that located behind the anchor gear.Too easy.

Carryfast:

gingerfold:
There is a (false) perception from some people that everything European was and is fantastic, and everything British was rubbish. There was, and is, good and bad points about every truck marque of the 1970s, even Scania and Volvo had their problems. And believe me as someone still involved in the day to day running of them they still give problems. The trouble-free truck has still to be made.

To be fair there are arguably 4 different inter related points in all this.

Firstly the Marathon specifically was a primitive retrograde step for Leyland by the standards of the day.Originating more out of desperation,because the T45 was too late on the scene,than anything really good about it and certainly no match for the DAF 2800.

As for the Brits v imports there were numerous second to none Brit products around. With the ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination being relatively bullet proof and able to perform at least as well,if not better,than any of the foreign competition.

While to be fair maybe MAN’s reputation has possibly taken a justified hit in terms of its more recent products.But ironically the F8 and F90 series certainly don’t fit into that being two examples of the best of the imports in their day.

But again still an expensive over rated option v the domestic choices regardless.With the SA 400/401 or Bedford TM,for two examples and possibly even the T45,with the right cab spec,being all the truck anyone really needed. :bulb:

To be fair,everyone was struggling with engine development back then.Volvo with the TD100 290,Scanias DS14 cracking blocks around the mains,MANS D25/28 with liner and head gasket issues.Really speaking it was ■■■■■■■ who had a grip on the job with the 855 but it was thirsty.

railstaff:

Carryfast:

gingerfold:
There is a (false) perception from some people that everything European was and is fantastic, and everything British was rubbish. There was, and is, good and bad points about every truck marque of the 1970s, even Scania and Volvo had their problems. And believe me as someone still involved in the day to day running of them they still give problems. The trouble-free truck has still to be made.

To be fair there are arguably 4 different inter related points in all this.

Firstly the Marathon specifically was a primitive retrograde step for Leyland by the standards of the day.Originating more out of desperation,because the T45 was too late on the scene,than anything really good about it and certainly no match for the DAF 2800.

As for the Brits v imports there were numerous second to none Brit products around. With the ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ combination being relatively bullet proof and able to perform at least as well,if not better,than any of the foreign competition.

While to be fair maybe MAN’s reputation has possibly taken a justified hit in terms of its more recent products.But ironically the F8 and F90 series certainly don’t fit into that being two examples of the best of the imports in their day.

But again still an expensive over rated option v the domestic choices regardless.With the SA 400/401 or Bedford TM,for two examples and possibly even the T45,with the right cab spec,being all the truck anyone really needed. :bulb:

To be fair,everyone was struggling with engine development back then.Volvo with the TD100 290,Scanias DS14 cracking blocks around the mains,MANS D25/28 with liner and head gasket issues.Really speaking it was ■■■■■■■ who had a grip on the job with the 855 but it was thirsty.

Compared with other early to mid-'70s engines, the ■■■■■■■ 885 (NTC 335) wasn’t particularly thirsty, and it was largely replaced in about '78 by the newly improved big-cam 290 which was certainly more frugal. Or you could go for the 350, early examples of which were after-cooled 335s.

I often think that the old Marathon received a worse press than it should have done because its make-shift interim elongated ergo cab. Robert

ERF-NGC-European:
Compared with other early to mid-'70s engines, the ■■■■■■■ 885 (NTC 335) wasn’t particularly thirsty, and it was largely replaced in about '78 by the newly improved big-cam 290 which was certainly more frugal. Or you could go for the 350, early examples of which were after-cooled 335s.

I often think that the old Marathon received a worse press than it should have done because its make-shift interim elongated ergo cab. Robert

That’s how I remembered it.In that the ■■■■■■■ had the reputation of being one of the most fuel efficient engines available and definitely after the introduction of the big cam versions with all the power output options anyone needed as part of that.

The Brits also having the choice of the Rolls option which was also second to none.Although Bewick will never believe it. :smiling_imp:

While Leyland really shot itself in the foot with the silly primitive Marathon Ergo cab ‘development’ with any bad ‘press’ being justified in that regard.In which case how difficult could it have been for the government to have stepped in and said that Leyland also had to have access to the SA type MP cab.Or just go to MP and say we also want the rights to that type of cab design and pay them well for it with a clause that Leyland could take it in house if MP failed to meet the order for whatever reason.Thereby circumventing both the primitive Marathon cab and possibly also saving the development cash and production costs of the T45 cab too. :bulb:

So there we have it SA 400/401 type cab with usual ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ spec under it and Leyland Marathon 2 badge stuck on the front job done…and last but not least government imposed import restrictions giving the domestic market the choice of take it or leave it. :smiley: :wink:

railstaff:
Daft as it is,when Daf done what ever they did to Leyland, they cured it by fitting a simple huge circlip to the ring gear that located behind the anchor gear.Too easy.

Strange how it’s true about one part of the country having problems another never experienced, because all those S26s we saw had the circlip. I used put the annulus on the bench so that the carrier was resting against the circlip with something heavy then on top, or stick the lot in the vice and weld the two together. I think the hub nut mod was a plate with a hole the shape of the nut cut in it, which then had to be fixed to the carrier with a large dome head allen screw into one of the tapped holes used to draw the bearing off.

My boss of the time got round the hub reduction problems by buying a complete used Rockwell rear axle from a Ford Transconti and slinging it onto the back end of one of our Scammell Crusaders.
It made an ‘interesting’ lorry and you got some double takes as you overtook (everyone) slipping it up one into top gear @ 75mph :sunglasses:

Juddian:
My boss of the time got round the hub reduction problems by buying a complete used Rockwell rear axle from a Ford Transconti and slinging it onto the back end of one of our Scammell Crusaders.
It made an ‘interesting’ lorry and you got some double takes as you overtook (everyone) slipping it up one into top gear @ 75mph :sunglasses:

I think the Marathon should have had the Rockwell axle option , didn`t the Roadtrain eventually get it or was it when Daf got involved

cav551:

railstaff:
Daft as it is,when Daf done what ever they did to Leyland, they cured it by fitting a simple huge circlip to the ring gear that located behind the anchor gear.Too easy.

Strange how it’s true about one part of the country having problems another never experienced, because all those S26s we saw had the circlip. I used put the annulus on the bench so that the carrier was resting against the circlip with something heavy then on top, or stick the lot in the vice and weld the two together. I think the hub nut mod was a plate with a hole the shape of the nut cut in it, which then had to be fixed to the carrier with a large dome head allen screw into one of the tapped holes used to draw the bearing off.

I never new that,i always thought the circlip was a Daf idea after the take over/merger but in all fairness the axle we worked on had 3 pinion gears and not the five as in the RT axle,still the same size top hats though.

The Marathon was designed on a shoestring and rushed out to compete with the foreign opposition. There wasnt funds for a new cab and indepth testing but it was no worse than the British offerings of the time . The virtual walk thru cab is what most manufacturers are trying to achieve now . Volvo rushed out the 290 F88 in response and yes it could nip on a bit but many would tell you the 240 was much more reliable The F88 cab was very cramped , the 2800 Daf was not without design flaws either with that low windscreen. Its just that its much more fashionable to knock our products and conveniently forget the foreigners short comings. The Marathon could have been so much more but the money wasnt available , what was Foden , ERF , SAs excuses . Iveco Turbostars were very cramped and the Tec cab too , these being old designs that were revamped in the `80s

ramone:

Juddian:
My boss of the time got round the hub reduction problems by buying a complete used Rockwell rear axle from a Ford Transconti and slinging it onto the back end of one of our Scammell Crusaders.
It made an ‘interesting’ lorry and you got some double takes as you overtook (everyone) slipping it up one into top gear @ 75mph :sunglasses:

I think the Marathon should have had the Rockwell axle option , didn`t the Roadtrain eventually get it or was it when Daf got involved

That was the Leyland thinking i can see the logic ,design and use as much of our own stuff as we can,the default engine being the TL12.I got the feeling the money was tight for Research which was madness when you seen the test ground at Leyland.I worked there for a while using one of the many dyno rooms recently and seriously the corridors were large enough to drive an atlantean bus through them.

Again with hindsight what money was available in the truck division of BL probably went into other areas rather than vehicle R&D. For example, was a new engine building plant necessary at that time? When TL12 engine production was transferred from Southall to the new engine plant at Leyland was the end product any better than those built at Southall on machinery over 20 years old? I have never heard of, or seen anything in writing to suggest that it was. When DAF snapped up Leyland Truck and Bus the main attraction for them were modern assembly and production facilities.

stevejones:
1 from down in the desert

º
John Bland…I think.

gingerfold:
Again with hindsight what money was available in the truck division of BL probably went into other areas rather than vehicle R&D. For example, was a new engine building plant necessary at that time? When TL12 engine production was transferred from Southall to the new engine plant at Leyland was the end product any better than those built at Southall on machinery over 20 years old? I have never heard of, or seen anything in writing to suggest that it was. When DAF snapped up Leyland Truck and Bus the main attraction for them were modern assembly and production facilities.

My point was looking at what BL set aside for the Marathon was peanuts compared certainly with the foreign invasion but also the British offerings. The difference with other British offerings were they didn’t have to put money into engine development whereas BL did. They put a decent lorry together which performed well against the opposition on a shoestring which to be fair was easy to see on the mk1 but the mk2 was a much improved vehicle. The build quality wasnt always there but in 72/73 when the Marathon was introduced you could have opted for ERF A series , Foden S83, Seddon with the motor panels cab , Atki Borderer on the British scene .When the British reacted probably the B series was the best with the SA and its back to front gearbox an also ran . Foden were a bit later with the S10 . None really stand out .Daf had the 2800 from the mid 70s ,Volvo F88, Scania 110/111 ,Merc LPS ,Ford Transcon very heavy , Fiat .They all had good and bad points but 45 years on and still no one has produced the perfect vehicle and they never will because what suits one operation isn`t ideal for all.
With the new engine plant and the designers/engineers at their disposal Leyland had two of the three things necessary to design a complete new engine ,it was the finance that was missing

gingerfold:
Again with hindsight what money was available in the truck division of BL probably went into other areas rather than vehicle R&D. For example, was a new engine building plant necessary at that time? When TL12 engine production was transferred from Southall to the new engine plant at Leyland was the end product any better than those built at Southall on machinery over 20 years old? I have never heard of, or seen anything in writing to suggest that it was. When DAF snapped up Leyland Truck and Bus the main attraction for them were modern assembly and production facilities.

Firstly going by the video posted previously Southall seems to had some quite reasonable up to date machinery shown there.

As discussed previously the TL12’s limitations were more about its design than how or where it was made.In that it would have taken something very special to have made it worth Leyland carrying on with its in house engine manufacturing operations at least at that level and a less than 6 inch stroke,let alone one of less than the 680,just wasn’t going to cut it by the standards of the rate of 1970’s truck development,as opposed to Rolls and ■■■■■■■■

IE the choice of Rolls/■■■■■■■ v TL12 was by then a no brainer with the only surprise being how long that Leyland tried to keep production of it going.Just like all the cash wasted on the Marathon and T45 cab development and production instead of just going to MP and saying we need something just like the SA 400 and then just put the usual ■■■■■■■ and Rolls options under it.

Carryfast:

gingerfold:
Again with hindsight what money was available in the truck division of BL probably went into other areas rather than vehicle R&D. For example, was a new engine building plant necessary at that time? When TL12 engine production was transferred from Southall to the new engine plant at Leyland was the end product any better than those built at Southall on machinery over 20 years old? I have never heard of, or seen anything in writing to suggest that it was. When DAF snapped up Leyland Truck and Bus the main attraction for them were modern assembly and production facilities.

Firstly going by the video posted previously Southall seems to had some quite reasonable up to date machinery shown there.

As discussed previously the TL12’s limitations were more about its design than how or where it was made.In that it would have taken something very special to have made it worth Leyland carrying on with its in house engine manufacturing operations at least at that level and a less than 6 inch stroke,let alone one of less than the 680,just wasn’t going to cut it by the standards of the rate of 1970’s truck development,as opposed to Rolls and ■■■■■■■■

IE the choice of Rolls/■■■■■■■ v TL12 was by then a no brainer with the only surprise being how long that Leyland tried to keep production of it going.Just like all the cash wasted on the Marathon and T45 cab development and production instead of just going to MP and saying we need something just like the SA 400 and then just put the usual ■■■■■■■ and Rolls options under it.

I think the lack of charge cooling played a major problem,a cab not really designed to facilate an air to air cooler.In all fairness the TL12 wasnt a bad lump,a ■■■■ sight better than the TL11 which in my opinion took a backward progression when it mophed from 680 to TL11.

railstaff:
I think the lack of charge cooling played a major problem,a cab not really designed to facilate an air to air cooler.In all fairness the TL12 wasnt a bad lump,a ■■■■ sight better than the TL11 which in my opinion took a backward progression when it mophed from 680 to TL11.

Firstly we know that DAF made the basic architecture of the 680 work.Which just leaves the fact that there’s no substitute for leverage at the crank as opposed to trying to compensate for lack of it by putting more shove onto the piston and thereby overloading the piston/conrod to crankshaft assembly chain.Which is ultimately why the Rolls and ■■■■■■■ won out in terms of stress v output arguably also against even against the best case DAF 680 development let alone the TL12.We’ve had the similar discussion before elsewhere in which the conclusion was that the AEC engine design architecture wouldn’t allow for any further development for a longer stroke measurement.

At which point the writing was already on the wall for the AV 760/TL12 the only surprise being why did Leyland waste so much of its limited resources in continuing to flog a dead horse in that regard. :bulb:

From the available options of Marathons the best was the TL12 version , it was proved with the CM roadtest where it went around their test route in record time with the best mpg figures of like for like vehicles tested .The other engine options were 250 ■■■■■■■ and rolls, the E290 wasn`t available until near the end of production , an engine which needed great discipline to get the best results mpg wise