Leaving your truck!

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
61

Hi coffeeholic

i bet that was fun :laughing:

62

ROG:
So if another driver in a car was to meet you away from base at ‘A’ then you can drive that car home but must drive it back to ‘A’ to resume your next shift in the SAME truck.
In the meantime, the driver that came in the car can do what they like with that truck but the company must make sure it is back at ‘A’ by the time you start the next shift.

I think I got that correct.

Coffeeholic:
You didn’t. It doesn’t have to be the same truck, or even a truck of any kind. The driver will just have to return there to resume work at which point he can get in any vehicle to go where ever.

[ZB] -shot again :exclamation: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :blush: :blush: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

63

No he wouldn’t because then the time he spent driving home will be classed as other work and he will have gone over 15 hours duty and therefore be unable to take sufficient daily rest.

That one really is a daft. If he drove into the base gate at 14 hrs 59 mins, dumped the truck just inside the gate, explained to the shunter & office bod the reason, he can then legally drive home… which might be an hours drive.

However, had he been running later & only got to the truckstop say 50 minutes away from base when he ran out of time duty time. Just as it happens his house is only 10 minutes from this truckstop.
He phones his wife to come & pick him up. He cannot legally drive his own/wifes car 10 minutes home.

… apparently… according to the above.

I may be wrong, but its my belief that if your tacho charts/card show an uninterfered with record of legal rest, it is highly unlikely further investigation would be pursued.

64

Driveroneuk:

No he wouldn’t because then the time he spent driving home will be classed as other work and he will have gone over 15 hours duty and therefore be unable to take sufficient daily rest.

That one really is a daft. If he drove into the base gate at 14 hrs 59 mins, dumped the truck just inside the gate, explained to the shunter & office bod the reason, he can then legally drive home… which might be an hours drive.

However, had he been running later & only got to the truckstop say 50 minutes away from base when he ran out of time duty time. Just as it happens his house is only 10 minutes from this truckstop.
He phones his wife to come & pick him up. He cannot legally drive his own/wifes car 10 minutes home.

… apparently… according to the above.

He is on rest and free to dispose of his time as he wishes and if he wishes to drive his or his wives car then he can drive it home if he so desires. He can then return in the morning, or his wife can drive him, and he resumes work 9 hours later.

Driveroneuk:
I may be wrong, but its my belief that if your tacho charts/card show an uninterfered with record of legal rest, it is highly unlikely further investigation would be pursued.

But questions may be asked if the finish point on one chart is different from the start point on the next days chart, especially if the finish point isn’t base and the start point is and he shows 15 hours duty on the first chart. Of course the digi tacho, where the start and finish points are in most cases just a country, would give an extra degree of err… flexibility :wink:

65

delboytwo wrote:
you can not drive to base or be taken to base you most go home and also if you worked from 6.00am till 9.00pm you must be at base by 9.00 pm if you are not the you may make your own way home or a driver would bring you a car to take home not go to base

coffeeholic wrote
You can only go home if you are returning to the same place to resume work in the morning, otherwise you are not on rest while travelling and will therefore be having insufficient daily rest.

can I ask you this

for this i use this 6 am start 9 pm finish 1 hour from yard

this is how it can be done if you run out of duty and the company brings two drivers who have got time available to them, then one of the drivers takes the truck back to the yard and the other driver takes you HOME, and as you are free to do what you want on your rest then this would count as your 9 hours at 6 am the boss picks you up from home and takes you to the yard you get to the yard at 7 am

Article 9

  1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
    accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
    and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
    interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
    exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
    period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.
  2. Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
    vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
    from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
    home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
    driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
    break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
    bunk or couchette.
  3. Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
    outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
    which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
    the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
    where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

and as you can see as long as you dont drive home or to work then it would be ok

it can be any one picking you up from the truck or takeing you to the yard

66

I predict at least another 3 pages yet :wink:

67

delboytwo:

delboytwo wrote:
you can not drive to base or be taken to base you most go home and also if you worked from 6.00am till 9.00pm you must be at base by 9.00 pm if you are not the you may make your own way home or a driver would bring you a car to take home not go to base

coffeeholic wrote
You can only go home if you are returning to the same place to resume work in the morning, otherwise you are not on rest while travelling and will therefore be having insufficient daily rest.

can I ask you this

for this i use this 6 am start 9 pm finish 1 hour from yard

this is how it can be done if you run out of duty and the company brings two drivers who have got time available to them, then one of the drivers takes the truck back to the yard and the other driver takes you HOME, and as you are free to do what you want on your rest then this would count as your 9 hours at 6 am the boss picks you up from home and takes you to the yard you get to the yard at 7 am

Article 9

  1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
    accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
    and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
    interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
    exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
    period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.
  2. Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
    vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
    from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
    home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
    driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
    break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
    bunk or couchette.
  3. Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
    outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
    which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
    the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
    where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

and as you can see as long as you dont drive home or to work then it would be ok

No it wouldn’t. Whether you drive or not is irrelevant. The regulations, Article 9, Section 2, refer to travelling and doesn’t distinguish as to whether you are being driven or driving yourself, either way you are travelling. If you park up at 21:00 and start your rest you can then do what you want, and you can drive or be driven home if you wish. In fact what you do during those 9 hours is your business and nobody else. At 06:00 you can begin work again after a 9 hour rest period. However, for the period from 21:00 - 06:00 to all be rest you will need to resume work in the same location. If you go home with the intention of resuming work elsewhere the next day you are travelling from a location which is not your base to your home which isn’t rest and must be counted as other work, so you have now exceeded 15 hours which as you know does not leave enough time for a legal daily rest period. The travelling back to base in the morning in your scenario wouldn’t be other work as travelling from your home to your normal work place doesn’t count as work. I booked off and left work tonight at 19:45 and got home at 20:15 I will be booking back on at 05:00 but will leave home at 04:30. I will have had 9.25 hours daily rest period (Actually 12.75 hours daily rest as I had 4.5 hour period this morning) but will only have been at home for 8.25 hours and that is OK. If I had left the vehicle elsewhere and was heading into base I would only have 8.75 hours rest, as my rest would not commence until 20:15 when I arrived home. For me it would be illegal as I started at 05:00 and that would mean 15.25 hours duty time.

Forget who is driving, who owns the vehicle, where the driver goes during his rest period or anything else. This is simply a question about what happens when a driver reaches 15 hours duty time and the simple answer to the simple question is he begins a daily rest period otherwise he commits an offence. He cannot do anything which does not count as daily rest and travelling from a vehicle at a location which isn’t the base to his home does not count as daily rest.

It is a nonsense but that doesn’t mean it can be ignored.

68
  1. Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
    outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
    which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
    the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
    where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

if you look at this that i have coluored red an out of scope is a car say

and one falls within scope is a truck

and if you drive your sefl then yes you do count it as other work

but as you see if you dont drive the car then you are ok

69

delboytwo:
3. Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle which falls
outside the scope of this Regulation to or from a vehicle
which falls within the scope of this Regulation, which is not at
the driver’s home or at the employer’s operational centre
where the driver is normally based, shall count as other work.

if you look at this that i have coluored red an out of scope is a car say

and one falls within scope is a truck

and if you drive your sefl then yes you do count it as other work

but as you see if you dont drive the car then you are ok

No you’re not.

Why are you highlighting bits in Article 9, Section 3 but ignoring Section 2? You have to read all the regulations not just the bits you think supports your argument while ignoring the bits which don’t. You are travelling regardless of the vehicle, the owner, being driven or driving yourself and Article 9, Section 2 clearly states that travelling cannot be counted as rest.

  1. Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
    vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
    from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
    home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
    driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest
70

DRIVING TO TAKE OVER VEHICLE
Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle
which falls outside the scope of this
within scope of this Regulation, which is not
at the driver’s home or at the employer’s
operational centre where the driver is
normally based, shall count as other work.
Regulation to or from a vehicle which falls

this is article 9 sc3 the bit in bold is what was missing and now i understand your meaning

but i can not find any where in the regs that say you must go back to that truck where you left it

i will ask you this if you drove the truck and ran out of time and your wife pick you up and took you home and the next day i ask my wife to take me to the truck would that be ok :question: as wee both did not drive and we both were driven home or to the truck

71

delboytwo:
DRIVING TO TAKE OVER VEHICLE
Any time spent by a driver driving a vehicle
which falls outside the scope of this
within scope of this Regulation, which is not
at the driver’s home or at the employer’s
operational centre where the driver is
normally based, shall count as other work.
Regulation to or from a vehicle which falls

this is article 9 sc3 the bit in bold is what was missing and now i understand your meaning

but i can not find any where in the regs that say you must go back to that truck where you left it

That has been explained already. It is to do with what is rest and when it starts. If you park up at 15 hours you must begin a rest immediately. If you do you are free to dispose of your time as you wish and 9 hours later you resume work, just as you would on a night out. That’s fine You have had 9 hours rest and all is legal, doesn’t matter what you did during those 9 hours you have had a legal rest. However if you finished at 15 hours and in the morning you resumed elsewhere then the travelling time from the vehicle has to be accounted for, this is other work so you will have gone over 15 hours. Start and finish in the same location then no travelling time, it’s all rest and you can do what you want during a rest period. Finish in one location and start at base, or any other location then there is travelling time and that is other work. As I said before it is a simple question about what must happen when you reach 15 hours and the answer is take a rest period, not do other work

delboytwo:
i will ask you this if you drove the truck and ran out of time and your wife pick you up and took you home and the next day i ask my wife to take me to the truck would that be ok :question: as wee both did not drive and we both were driven home or to the truck

Again, doesn’t matter who drives, whether you do or someone else does, that isn’t the issue. The issue is whether it is travelling time or not. If it’s travelling time it’s other work and if it isn’t it’s rest and if it is travelling time then you will in this scenario have worked more than 15 hours. The only way it isn’t travelling time is if you are on rest and can do what you want and the only way that can happen is if you begin your rest as soon as you reach 15 hours, as is legally required, which means ending that rest 9 hours later in the same location. If you end it elsewhere then you had travelling time, which will reduce your rest.

72

What he said!!! This is the main part of the rule…

…is at a seperate location that is neither the drivers home nor the employers operational centre where the driver is based…

This means that if a driver has his own car bought out to him and he can freely dispose of his time then thats the start of his rest.

The driver cannot use a company vehicle to go back to base nor home. That is other work. The driver is not able to freely dispose of his time.

If the driver has to go back to the vehicle then the journey to that vehicle is classed as other work even in his own vehicle as the truck is not at normal base.

73

MacDoog:
If the driver has to go back to the vehicle then the journey to that vehicle is classed as other work even in his own vehicle as the truck is not at normal base.

I assume you mean go back to the vehicle if it is at a different location as the driver would HAVE to go back to the vehicle if it was where he left it.

74

Its quite legal for that driver to start his shift at normal base after his rest. Its not legal for him to drive to the original stopping place of that truck in any vehicle without declaring it as other work as the truck is not at the normal operating centre where that driver is based.

This was I think bought about by a case against a coach company who were getting drivers to drive down to dover from Northampton and then hopping on the coach to drive all around europe on a full shift.

Obviously this is all about road safety.

75

MacDoog:
Its quite legal for that driver to start his shift at normal base after his rest. Its not legal for him to drive to the original stopping place of that truck in any vehicle without declaring it as other work as the truck is not at the normal operating centre where that driver is based.

So what you are saying is that the driver CANNOT leave his vehicle location at all if away from base and is therefore not free to dispose of his rest time as he pleases :question: :question: :confused: :confused: :confused:

76

ROG:
So what you are saying is that the driver CANNOT leave his vehicle location at all if away from base and is therefore not free to dispose of his rest time as he pleases :question: :question: :confused: :confused: :confused:

In which case then it is impossible for him to take rest! Because the definition of “rest” with regard to driver’s hour rules states that he must be able to dispose of his time as he pleases, which in the above scenario he cannot.

So are we saying that it would be illegal to ride as passenger in a taxi 10 minutes each way into town & back?

77

Driveroneuk:

ROG:
So what you are saying is that the driver CANNOT leave his vehicle location at all if away from base and is therefore not free to dispose of his rest time as he pleases :question: :question: :confused: :confused: :confused:

In which case then it is impossible for him to take rest! Because the definition of “rest” with regard to driver’s hour rules states that he must be able to dispose of his time as he pleases, which in the above scenario he cannot.

So are we saying that it would be illegal to ride as passenger in a taxi 10 minutes each way into town & back?

I’m glad you read it like that as well.
I was begining to think I was reading it wrong :exclamation: :exclamation:

78

MacDoog:
This was I think bought about by a case against a coach company who were getting drivers to drive down to dover from Northampton and then hopping on the coach to drive all around europe on a full shift.

Hi MacDoog, That case (Skills Motor Coaches) seems to have stuck in my mind for some reason…
IIRC, it became quotable case-law as a European Court ruling under the old (3820/85) drivers’ hours Regs.

That case might be only of academic interest now, because IMHO it seems to have been overtaken by Reg (EC) 561/2006 Article 9(2).

This isn’t my area of law, so I’d like to know what geebee45 makes of my point above. :grimacing:

:open_mouth: I suppose I could ask my learned friend ROG. :laughing: :wink: :smiley:

79

Out of all this thread, i deduce that parking the truck in a truckstop at the end of a 15 hr shift, getting the wife to come pick you up, & then her (or you) driving just 10 minutes home, would be illegal, Because the operative word in law is “travelling.” (nobody else spot that?)

However, if you were to park the truck at home, (for the lucky ones who can) then spend 1.5 hrs driving your car taking your neighbours to the airport, and 1.5 hrs back again, grab a few hrs sleep, then 9 hrs after parking the truck go again, that would be 100% legal.

The law is an ■■■!

80

Driveroneuk:
Out of all this thread, i deduce that parking the truck in a truckstop at the end of a 15 hr shift, getting the wife to come pick you up, & then her (or you) driving just 10 minutes home, would be illegal, Because the operative word in law is “travelling.” (nobody else spot that?)

That was pointed out to me yesterday by a member who can read law much better than me :smiley:

So I believe that you are correct because although it says that a driver can dispose of rest time as they see fit, they are still restricted as to what they can do by the ‘no travelling’ law.

Driveroneuk:
The law is an ■■■!

To my way of thinking as well.