Yes, she started this trend of creating pretend money instead of real money which was destined to end in tears before bedtime.
Carryfast:
The difference is that in the late 40’s and 50’s we were’nt importing manufactured goods on a massive scale and effectively funding the growth of China’s or Eastern Europe’s economies.
In the period immediately after the war we had no manufacturing industry to speak of then either. Everything had been focussed on the war effort, but with the war over we had factories and workforces capable of producing many thousands of planes, road vehicles and munitions that nobody wanted. There was no capital available to invest in re-tooling and cross-skilling, and even if there was we had (at that time) no home market for anything we were capable of producing. Europe (and large parts of the rest of the world) were a no-go as they were still rebuilding from the war and the US had buttoned up most of the work for themselves as a reward for pulling us out of the brown sticky stuff. Puts the impact of todays minor blip in comparison does it not? 
Carryfast:
The 1970’s were great until we joined the EEC and the OPEC oil price increases happened then the zb hit the fan.
As a producer of oil, the OPEC price only controls the value of the oil we import. Oil prices are largely determined by supply and demand, whether we pump it out of the north sea or bring it in ships from the gulf. As we are not an OPEC member it is hard to use OPEC to substantiate your argument, especially these days.
Carryfast:
and we still had a mining industry to fuel industry
We still have a mining industry today. It’s just that the practice of sending small boys down mine shafts with a canary has largely been replaced by high capacity opencast mining, which is safer and more efficient in the great scheme of things.
Carryfast:
and decent unions to keep wages in line with inflation and price increases until Callaghan and Thatcher threw a spanner in the works.
The unions are the very reason that we don’t have much of a manufacturing industry in this country any more. The spiralling costs of production caused primarily by the excessive wage increases demanded by the unions, followed by the crippling strikes when they didn’t get what they wanted were the first and last nails in the coffin.
Gogan:
Carryfast:
The difference is that in the late 40’s and 50’s we were’nt importing manufactured goods on a massive scale and effectively funding the growth of China’s or Eastern Europe’s economies.In the period immediately after the war we had no manufacturing industry to speak of then either. Everything had been focussed on the war effort, but with the war over we had factories and workforces capable of producing many thousands of planes, road vehicles and munitions that nobody wanted. There was no capital available to invest in re-tooling and cross-skilling, and even if there was we had (at that time) no home market for anything we were capable of producing. Europe (and large parts of the rest of the world) were a no-go as they were still rebuilding from the war and the US had buttoned up most of the work for themselves as a reward for pulling us out of the brown sticky stuff. Puts the impact of todays minor blip in comparison does it not?
Carryfast:
The 1970’s were great until we joined the EEC and the OPEC oil price increases happened then the zb hit the fan.As a producer of oil, the OPEC price only controls the value of the oil we import. Oil prices are largely determined by supply and demand, whether we pump it out of the north sea or bring it in ships from the gulf. As we are not an OPEC member it is hard to use OPEC to substantiate your argument, especially these days.
Carryfast:
and we still had a mining industry to fuel industryWe still have a mining industry today. It’s just that the practice of sending small boys down mine shafts with a canary has largely been replaced by high capacity opencast mining, which is safer and more efficient in the great scheme of things.
Carryfast:
and decent unions to keep wages in line with inflation and price increases until Callaghan and Thatcher threw a spanner in the works.The unions are the very reason that we don’t have much of a manufacturing industry in this country any more. The spiralling costs of production caused primarily by the excessive wage increases demanded by the unions, followed by the crippling strikes when they didn’t get what they wanted were the first and last nails in the coffin.
If you’re right then by now the country would be in a far better economic position than it was in 1972 and we’d have been as poor at that point as we were in 1946.
During the war our factories had been turned over to weapons and munitions production in most cases made up of women,those too old or too young for call up and/or in reserved occupations.The fact is the only difference between war production and civil production is in the drawings and it doesn’t really matter what the finished product needs to be.In most cases it took very little time for factories to go from cvilian production to war production and back again Jaguar Cars being one example.Getting materials supplies back to sufficient levels was a different matter though.However it was always a case of growth in living standards not recession from the end of WW2 up to the early 1970’s.
If you think that the OPEC production cuts,and therefore under supply in the world oil markets,didn’t cause massive price rises at the pumps here in 1973,together with resulting massive increases in inflation during the following years, you weren’t there.The question is why didn’t the British government make sure that North Sea oil was sold on the home market at (much) lower prices to give the country a competitive edge over our competitors 
.If it’s hard to substantiate my argument suggest you compare the price of fuel in Saudi Arabia with the amount that we’re paying for it.
Coal production figures during the 1970’s was around 100 million tonnes + per year whereas out of our consumption of 55 million tonnes in 2010 26 million tonnes was imported.
I don’t remember any time when the unions have ever gone for so called ‘excessive’ wage rises taking into account inflation at the time and the need to provide growth in the economy.We’ve got an economy based on your (and Thatcher’s) ideas of low,if any,wage increases and look where that’s got the economy now.
Carryfast:
If you’re right then by now the country would be in a far better economic position than it was in 1972 and we’d have been as poor at that point as we were in 1946.
You seem to be forgetting that we have been through several economic cycles of boom and bust since then, under both left-wing and right-wing governments. Incidentally we are in a far better economic position than we were in 1972, and ironically it is our concentration on services rather than manufacturing that has helped us weather that storm this time round.
Carryfast:
During the war our factories had been turned over to weapons and munitions production in most cases made up of women,those too old or too young for call up and/or in reserved occupations.The fact is the only difference between war production and civil production is in the drawings and it doesn’t really matter what the finished product needs to be.In most cases it took very little time for factories to go from cvilian production to war production and back again Jaguar Cars being one example.Getting materials supplies back to sufficient levels was a different matter though.However it was always a case of growth in living standards not recession from the end of WW2 up to the early 1970’s.
Again, you seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that regardless of whether or not the factories could produce items other than military hardware, there was still no market that wanted to buy them! Ex-military surplus vehicles were ten-a-penny after the war, so anyone who had a need for anything similar was spoilt for choice (just look at the number of airlines and hauliers who started with war castoffs). The only goods that were in high demand in the years following the war were non-luxury items, which had continued to be produced during the war anyway by virtue of necessity. Post-war Britain was far too busy with the business of (literally) rebuilding a country which had been largely flattened both physically, financially and emotionally by war, and whilst there was undoubtedly a steady growth in manufacturing in the period immediately following the war it was far from priority.
Incidentally, you cite Jaguar cars as a prime example of your vision for rebuilding the manufacturing industry - whats happened to them since, and who played the biggest part in those changes of circumstances? 
Carryfast:
If you think that the OPEC production cuts,and therefore under supply in the world oil markets,didn’t cause massive price rises at the pumps here in 1973,together with resulting massive increases in inflation during the following years, you weren’t there.The question is why didn’t the British government make sure that North Sea oil was sold on the home market at (much) lower prices to give the country a competitive edge over our competitors .If it’s hard to substantiate my argument suggest you compare the price of fuel in Saudi Arabia with the amount that we’re paying for it.
Remove the tax and duty from said oil, and then compare that pre-tax price of a litre of oil to the price of a litre of bottled mineral water. The oil companies (and hence, by association, the OPEC members) manage to research the oil fields, explore, extract the oil, transport the oil to a refinery, process it into its end product, transport that product to distribution outlets, market the product and dispense it to the consumer, all whilst making a profit for both the upstream and dowstream components. All this happens for less than the cost of an equivalent amount of mineral water, which at the end of the day is just bottled water from the ground. Sorry, but even at $150 a barell or more, oil (and all of its derivatives) is still cheap in relative terms!
Carryfast:
Coal production figures during the 1970’s was around 100 million tonnes + per year whereas out of our consumption of 55 million tonnes in 2010 26 million tonnes was imported.
So were are importing less than half of the coal we consume, a portion of a consumption level that is continually declining as time goes on. We have drastically improved the safety, skill level, pay and conditions of the workforce we do employ in the mining industry (whilst boosting other markets which support the opencasting industry) and yet you still mourn the passing of deep mining , which was for the most part put to its (IMHO) justifiable death 25 years ago? 
Carryfast:
I don’t remember any time when the unions have ever gone for so called ‘excessive’ wage rises taking into account inflation at the time and the need to provide growth in the economy.
Tanker drivers and firefighters are two examples that spring immediately to mind, and thats only in the last 10 years, a period in which the unions has seen their influence (over both political matters and the workforce in general) diminished massively. Take that back to the 70’s and you can find a huge quantity of examples, mainly of companies which either no longer exist or have been bankrupt an bailed out at least once.
Carryfast:
We’ve got an economy based on your (and Thatcher’s) ideas of low,if any,wage increases and look where that’s got the economy now.
I will admit to being slightly more capitalist than socialist, but I’m no Conservative fanboy. I’m what you might term an apathetic, slightly to the middle of centre fence occupier with an arse full of splinters.
Gogan:
You seem to be forgetting that we have been through several economic cycles of boom and bust since then, under both left-wing and right-wing governments. Incidentally we are in a far better economic position than we were in 1972, and ironically it is our concentration on services rather than manufacturing that has helped us weather that storm this time round.Again, you seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that regardless of whether or not the factories could produce items other than military hardware, there was still no market that wanted to buy them! Ex-military surplus vehicles were ten-a-penny after the war, so anyone who had a need for anything similar was spoilt for choice (just look at the number of airlines and hauliers who started with war castoffs). The only goods that were in high demand in the years following the war were non-luxury items, which had continued to be produced during the war anyway by virtue of necessity. Post-war Britain was far too busy with the business of (literally) rebuilding a country which had been largely flattened both physically, financially and emotionally by war, and whilst there was undoubtedly a steady growth in manufacturing in the period immediately following the war it was far from priority.
Incidentally, you cite Jaguar cars as a prime example of your vision for rebuilding the manufacturing industry - whats happened to them since, and who played the biggest part in those changes of circumstances?
Remove the tax and duty from said oil, and then compare that pre-tax price of a litre of oil to the price of a litre of bottled mineral water. The oil companies (and hence, by association, the OPEC members) manage to research the oil fields, explore, extract the oil, transport the oil to a refinery, process it into its end product, transport that product to distribution outlets, market the product and dispense it to the consumer, all whilst making a profit for both the upstream and dowstream components. All this happens for less than the cost of an equivalent amount of mineral water, which at the end of the day is just bottled water from the ground. Sorry, but even at $150 a barell or more, oil (and all of its derivatives) is still cheap in relative terms!
So were are importing less than half of the coal we consume, a portion of a consumption level that is continually declining as time goes on. We have drastically improved the safety, skill level, pay and conditions of the workforce we do employ in the mining industry (whilst boosting other markets which support the opencasting industry) and yet you still mourn the passing of deep mining , which was for the most part put to its (IMHO) justifiable death 25 years ago?
Tanker drivers and firefighters are two examples that spring immediately to mind, and thats only in the last 10 years, a period in which the unions has seen their influence (over both political matters and the workforce in general) diminished massively. Take that back to the 70’s and you can find a huge quantity of examples, mainly of companies which either no longer exist or have been bankrupt an bailed out at least once.
I will admit to being slightly more capitalist than socialist, but I’m no Conservative fanboy. I’m what you might term an apathetic, slightly to the middle of centre fence occupier with an arse full of splinters.
Only time will tell who’s view of the situation is correct.But having been there in 1972 compared to the situation now in regards to wages relative to prices,trade deficit and debt levels and the resulting state of the economy there’s no comparison.
The figures related to coal production need correcting it should have read 51.5 million consumption of which
18.4 million was covered by home production 26 million imports and the rest from stocks with a much larger ratio of imports before 2010 so the stocks probably being subject to that even worse ratio accordingly.All of which could have been covered by around double that figure at 1970’s production rates which probably would have allowed the closure of more expensive gas and nuclear powered electricity generation.
But on the subject of greedy overpaid unproductive zb’s causing bankruptcies and bail outs that fits bankers more than tanker drivers or any other worker in industry.
As said on the picketting topic I’m no more socialist than the US union movement was during the 1960’s or has ever been. 
Gogan, nice comparison there with the oil and mineral water
newmercman:
Gogan, nice comparison there with the oil and mineral water
Not really.My Evian consumption is a lot less than the Jag’s,or a truck’s,fuel consumption.
I can’t comment on the 70s as I was only a baby but today’s high fuel prices are the governments fault. Obviously the men in bed shirts in Saudi are making a fortune as are the chaps at bp but the pump price is still around 65% tax and vat. So at the current pump prices for a litre of diesel the government is having around 85p. So from finding the oil drilling it importing it to Europe refining it and getting it to the pumps in your local petrol station the Arabs and fuel company’s making money can be done for 55 to 60p a litre. So fuel isn’t that dear it’s the government ripping us off.
Just to join in, for the craic, we had ten working trucks, now we have three, all trucks and trls, bar one are paid for, and i havent been making any money, so we have , again downsized, we only do specialist work now, how on earth people on general make it pay, i honestly have no idea, as im skint ! I love the idea of our govermant hoping for an export led recovery ! this really scared me, we dont make anything anymore, i had a load to collect in italy before xmas, i had ten days to find an export load, i couldnt find one, the truck went out empty…,and also we are hoping to sell to the eurozone, well there skint too !The govermant has only one option left now to raise tax revenue, and thats to increase fuel taxes, as no companies are making a profit and therefore arent paying any company tax, lots of people unemployed , so very little paye teax being raised, plenty of outgoings for the govermant as they have to pay for the unemployed.I personally am amazed that lots more tpt companys havent become bankrupt, if you cant break even when your kit is payed for, what hope do you have when all your gear is on finance.Lets watch the fuel price sky rocket this year, i will put my money on it, well what little there is of it left…You have to laugh, or you would cry…
fly sheet:
I don’t think its the end, I think we as a country are in a real [zb] place at the minute. My solution would be to simply if I was in power force the banks to give mortgages to working folks with a 2.5% deposit. I had the rental people round My crib last week, they reckon all these renters are decent folk who have’nt got a deposit but can afford to rent, its a joke, all them lazy landlords coining it in ffs & young people wasting years of there lives getting no further forward on the property ladder
Cheap and easy motgages and credit are part of the reason we are where we are today. We built an economy on credit and eventually that has to be paid off.
The housing thing is down to supply and demand, we simply don’t have enough decent properties in the right places in this country. It meant that house prices to rise out of the reach of many, now mortgages are difficult to get hold of, rent prices are going sky high as people still need somewhere to live.
Some cynics suggest the constant squeeze on the house market is a dilberate policy by those with money and power to keep thier property prices high.
Maybe the best thing the govenment could spend money on a massive house refurbishing and building scheme, the extra supply would mean prices coming down, therefore making it easier for people to buy or rent, simple laws of supply and demand. Of course this would upset many in Daily Mail England as their houses would be worth less and they’d get less rent on thier buy to let property.
And of course building and refurbing creates employment and when people move into a property they want to spend money on things, more trade. And if the cost of having somewhere to live are cheaper then there is more money to spend.
kr79:
I can’t comment on the 70s as I was only a baby but today’s high fuel prices are the governments fault. Obviously the men in bed shirts in Saudi are making a fortune as are the chaps at bp but the pump price is still around 65% tax and vat. So at the current pump prices for a litre of diesel the government is having around 85p. So from finding the oil drilling it importing it to Europe refining it and getting it to the pumps in your local petrol station the Arabs and fuel company’s making money can be done for 55 to 60p a litre. So fuel isn’t that dear it’s the government ripping us off.
If you put things into the perspective of what happened in 1973 and since with the OPEC rigging of the world oil market, by holding back the supply side,and the actions of the British government policy on North Sea oil,our government are actually ripping us off twice.Once with the fact that,unlike the Saudis etc,our government wants us to pay the world market price for our own oil (so the zb Germans pay the same as we do 
) and then to add insult to injury they tax the stuff at more than it’s even worth.On top of which by flogging it to everyone else the reserves are running out a lot faster than they would have done if we’d have just kept it all for ourselves. 
How much north sea oil is used for petrol or diesel?
Fuel prices in the Middle East are rather depressing when compared with ours…
I regularly visit Abu Dhabi to visit bruv & sis in-law.
Said bruv-in-law drives a 5.4L Ford Expedition 4x4…a big mutha…watched him filling the tank (from almost empty) last year and he paid the equivalent of £22. A quick squint at his receipt revealed that would’ve cost him £110+ in Blighty.
The fuel stations in and around the city don’t have diesel pumps…all the cars/4x4s are petrol. Wagons fuel up on the outskirts or mototways.
richmond:
Just to join in, for the craic, we had ten working trucks, now we have three, all trucks and trls, bar one are paid for, and i havent been making any money, so we have , again downsized, we only do specialist work now, how on earth people on general make it pay, i honestly have no idea, as im skint ! I love the idea of our govermant hoping for an export led recovery ! this really scared me, we dont make anything anymore, i had a load to collect in italy before xmas, i had ten days to find an export load, i couldnt find one, the truck went out empty…,and also we are hoping to sell to the eurozone, well there skint too !The govermant has only one option left now to raise tax revenue, and thats to increase fuel taxes, as no companies are making a profit and therefore arent paying any company tax, lots of people unemployed , so very little paye teax being raised, plenty of outgoings for the govermant as they have to pay for the unemployed.I personally am amazed that lots more tpt companys havent become bankrupt, if you cant break even when your kit is payed for, what hope do you have when all your gear is on finance.Lets watch the fuel price sky rocket this year, i will put my money on it, well what little there is of it left…You have to laugh, or you would cry…
Putting a load more tax on road fuel will just cause the place to go under faster.Because either no one will buy as much so even less tax coming in or if they do buy it then they’ll have to cut spending on other things even more.
There’s no way that they can get an ‘export led recovery’ to markets which can now make for themselves what we can make and/or in which we first have to lend (give) them the money before our industry can flog them the goods and in which we’re importing a lot more than we’re exporting.All of which covers most aspects of trading with the EU and the global free market economy when a even a trained monkey can see that it’s concentrating on trade and growth in the domestic economy above all else first and just export the surplus that is the key.
muckles:
fly sheet:
I don’t think its the end, I think we as a country are in a real [zb] place at the minute. My solution would be to simply if I was in power force the banks to give mortgages to working folks with a 2.5% deposit. I had the rental people round My crib last week, they reckon all these renters are decent folk who have’nt got a deposit but can afford to rent, its a joke, all them lazy landlords coining it in ffs & young people wasting years of there lives getting no further forward on the property ladderCheap and easy motgages and credit are part of the reason we are where we are today. We built an economy on credit and eventually that has to be paid off.
The housing thing is down to supply and demand, we simply don’t have enough decent properties in the right places in this country. It meant that house prices to rise out of the reach of many, now mortgages are difficult to get hold of, rent prices are going sky high as people still need somewhere to live.
Some cynics suggest the constant squeeze on the house market is a dilberate policy by those with money and power to keep thier property prices high.Maybe the best thing the govenment could spend money on a massive house refurbishing and building scheme, the extra supply would mean prices coming down, therefore making it easier for people to buy or rent, simple laws of supply and demand. Of course this would upset many in Daily Mail England as their houses would be worth less and they’d get less rent on thier buy to let property.
And of course building and refurbing creates employment and when people move into a property they want to spend money on things, more trade. And if the cost of having somewhere to live are cheaper then there is more money to spend.
The reason why people have to borrow loads a money is beacause wages have fallen behind prices.If the banks took your advice to not lend zb all to anyone then things would have been even worse.
You’ve obviously never seen much of a whole county like this one (Surrey) in which the Londoners took whole swathes of it’s countryside to build loads and loads of zb houses on and which has just resulted in an expensive urban sprawl full of immigrants just like the rest of that zb hole.If you’re right then it would be more expensive to buy an equivalent sized house in the highlands of Scotland than zb Sutton,Kingston or Croydon.
Best thing the guvmint can do for our economy is a cut in Tax for Diesel used in comercial vehicles over 7.5t. Even drop it all together for a period. The resulting drop in shop prices would encourage people out to spend, generating growth and jobs. Keep private road fuel at its current tax rate.
kr79:
How much north sea oil is used for petrol or diesel?
All that matters is that there is (was) enough there to provide us with petrol and diesel at Saudi type pump prices for ages which (would have) provided us with a competitive edge over all of our European and far eastern competitors if we’d have just kept it and sold it to ourselves instead of flogging it to the Germans etc etc at the same price as we were paying for it.Which has just resulted in the situation where it’s now running out and we’re poorer,as always,than the zb Germans.
dominicpriestley:
Best thing the guvmint can do for our economy is a cut in Tax for Diesel used in comercial vehicles over 7.5t. Even drop it all together for a period. The resulting drop in shop prices would encourage people out to spend, generating growth and jobs. Keep private road fuel at its current tax rate.
It needs to be got rid of altogether for good because it’s the spending power of those private motorists that needs to be increased to provide the work needed to put the load on the truck.It’s no good having cheaper diesel for trucks if there’s still too many trucks chasing too few loads.We need the combination of the drop in prices that would come with it and the extra money in people’s pockets.But even that won’t help much if it just gets spent on yet more imports and jobs for foreign workers because we’ll just end up where we started.
Diesel in saudi arabia lsat year cost me 5 pence per liter, fact, if they put fuel up to £2.00 per liter here, we will have to still pay it, and they know that,.The big companys get the work, and sub it out to the smaller guys, who cant make a profit out of it any longer.
richmond:
Diesel in saudi arabia lsat year cost me 5 pence per liter, fact, if they put fuel up to £2.00 per liter here, we will have to still pay it, and they know that,.The big companys get the work, and sub it out to the smaller guys, who cant make a profit out of it any longer.
If/when they put road fuel up to £2 per litre it will just sink the economy that much faster.